Thursday, June 07, 2007

The End in Sight for Akash

It is now confirmed that the Akash medium range surface-to-air missile programme will formally enter the user trial phase with the Indian Air Force (IAF) in July this year ahead of the monsoon, at which time it will be tested both at Chandipore-on-Sea and the Mahajan Field Firing Range (MFFR) in Rajasthan. As a small treat, here are two new photographs I received from DRDO yesterday (don't remember seeing them on the net before anyway, so I'm assuming they're new). On May 11, Defence Minister AK Antony told Parliament that no decision had yet been taken about inducting Akash into the Army, though the W&E Directorate has confirmed that user trials with the Army will take place simultaneously at the MFFR using the tracked mobile-launcher configuration and the L&T-made truck mounted launcher in August (a similar launcher that will be used for the AAD, incidentally).

Last month, in a conversation with Vice Admiral Raman Puri (who was inducted onto the board of HAL in September last year for his missile and gunnery expertise), he said, "The Akash is a top-class missile that was unfortunate to face some technological problems that could have been faced by anyone. Realisation of ramjet propulsion independent of foreign assistance is something that misses most people. We have done just that, so we don't need to go around with a begging bowl for this critical technology that will serve us well in future systems. Though I was not involved with the programme at any point, I have carefully scrutinised trial and test reports and was always of the opinion that the IAF made unreasonable and mid-way demands of a missile that our scientists were careful to match against big odds. What does the IAF think it had with the Pechora? Those systems are more archaic than anything else in its arsenal. As it stands today, the Akash is hugely more capable than any SAM in the IAF's inventory. Instead of throwing up nit-picks in the developmental trials phase, the IAF should encourage DRDO to move towards user trials so all outstanding issues -- which I personally don't think exist, except for some fantastic observations on low-level intercept -- can be ironed out and productionisation pursued expeditiously. Look at everything these boys have developed indigenously. From group control and battery control equipment centres, acquisition and battery-level radars, excellent launcher platforms, and a missile with massive g-resistance without slackening velocity. I got into a tiff with my colleagues in the IAF during a review of the programme a while ago. There was a big argument about the missile's agility. I told them, if there was one thing that the multiple target intercept test had proved, it was the missile's virtually matchless agility in the air."

In December 2005, after the Akash's 50th test, then DRDL's director Dr Prahlada said, "The speed will never drop. So you are able to maintain superiority over the target. Even the Patriot missile does not have ram-jet propulsion. The Patriot missile, after its boost phase, keeps decelerating but Akash does not decelerate."

In October 2006, then IAF chief Air Chief Mshl SP Tyagi said that problems and delays in the Akash programme had compelled the IAF to choose to import 18 SpyDer systems. This became something of a joke at the time (since the SpyDer-SR is an LLQRM like the Trishul). However, this was checked out with the IAF, and it became clear that the IAF (and Tyagi) had wanted to import the much more expensive SpyDer-MR, which has range capabilities that match the Akash. This demand was shot down by the MoD, which said that the ground-equipment modification (GEM) of the Pechoras would suffice for now, and that an import of the SpyDer-SR was more in line with the capability gap expressed with the obsolescence of the 24-odd OSA-AK (purchased in 1989-90) that are being brutally cannibalised for spares. Either way, of 70 Pechora systems procured from Russia between 1974-90, only 24 are still operational.

Be that as it may, the Akash programme hasn't been all smooth sailing obviously. User trials were to have been kickstarted as far back as 1999, right upto the second half of 2006, but this did not happen. The programme got some star attention in Parliament when Jaya Bachchan queried Defence Minister AK Antony about it in December last year. She was plainly told that the programme had just been completed and would shortly be pushed through user trials with the air force, a stance the government has taken since 2003, to be sure. The Akash has undergone over 53 developmental flight tests so far (including Phase-II trials from a T-72 platform in December 2006) ending the developmental phase of the missile programme. The programme was kickstarted with a sanctioned project cost of Rs 95.34 crore in 1983 and extended from July 1995 to December 2007 to Rs 548.45 crore. Most of the missile's programmes pertained, as DRDO admitted to Parliament, to integral ramjet propulsion and command guidance, both of which have been fully resolved and demonstrated in user-participated trials.

As a side nugget, the IAF has refuted the recent Hindustan Times story and said that the information mentioned in the report is at least fourteen months old -- and that subsequent developmental trials with user participation have ironed out these problems. The IAF has also said on record now that user trial criteria have been worked out and full-fledged user trials will begin shortly.

67 comments :

Sniperz11 said...

Shivji, mithai baantna padega.... Ajai Shukla's Arjun story, and now, this post of yours... whats happening??

What has happened that has turned you guys into DRDO lovers (at least non-haters)? I hope you haven't got any death threats from some of the idiot anons on this blog that has caused you to change.

Shiv Aroor said...

sniperz11: dost samjha karo na yar. death threats from AFMs like zero etc scare me off? and from what? no way dude. point is, patriotism is a funny fish, that sometimes stops you from asking all the hard questions. someone recently said that shiv aroor and chacko joseph are two sides of the same coin. i think that's fair in one sense. if you look carefully at the stuff i wrote both before and after the DRDO series (and including some parts of the series itself), i've mostly been the one to first report good stuff about indigenous defence technology development. to me, this isn't a political labyrinth. it's technology, plain and simple. and if things are going right, i'll wager my islet of langerhans that there will be no two ways about whether i'll tell it like it is. i'm not (never have been) a drdo-hater. the series was a spot check on everything. it worked in some ways. it didn't in some ways. what it did do was bring the debate to a head. not just from NRI nitwits, but from people in government and parliament. DRDO is infinitely more open with the press now. there have been structural changes. things are looking up. the agni test was successful, so was the ABM. to say that's a slap in shiv aroor's face is to negate the very purpose of what we set out to do. the point is, as defence journalists we are all too often wooed by arms companies, asking for a little "extra" on the page for a price. there are those who bend to it (you'd be amazed how many), and there are those who don't. the fact remained that drdo needed a nudge, and that's what we did, however self-indulgent that may sound!

Anonymous said...

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Extreme jingoism is the last refuge of the NRI who never returns to desh but finds its easy to pontificate from abroad.

Anonymous said...

As someone who has followed this from day 1, all I can say is Shiv Aroors hubris and shamelessness are unmatcheable. first he cursed DRDO, and when it became clear that even people like Puri were standing up and supporting it, he changed tack and now he is a "patriot"..

I would gladly take a NRI with solid technical work experience over a hack like Aroor who has zero ethics, zero knowledge and more importantly, the NRI would have worked in a competitive environment, unlike 90% of Indias priviledged journalists who can dish it out but cant handle it..

Chacko Joseph, if he is the same frontier india guy is more capable than aroor check out the arjun articles and the amount of effort into them..Aroor is yet to show anything of the sort.

Aroor you have a long way to go before you make up for all the mud slinging and gutter fetish that u demonstrated earlier..and you have used up all the credit that ppl would have normally extended to you.

Coming to "lifafa journalism"...that DRDO series was exactly that. Your boss took the cut and you monkeys jumped around doing his dirty work for him.

-Jai

Shiv Aroor said...

jai: you flatter yourself when you imagine i even need credit extended to me. i've defended a position that mediocrityphiles like you can't fathom because you've either been in the game too long, or haven't the basic sense to distinguish between "patriot" and "patriotism is overrated". i would gladly take a tech-solid NRI myself, but obviously you're neither. of course i have a long way to go, but not as long a way to go as you in elbowing that wedge in your brain that befuddles you every day into believing that someone who has a position, whatever that may be, can't have another. it's dogmatic sillies like you who imagine patriotism is to shield incompetence, thereby harming the country even more. wear more than your silly insecurities on your sleeve jai. it would suit you better than all that foam on your lips. and about the lifafa bit, i've said too much already, so i won't go there again. meanwhile, about ethics, do yourself a favour and introspect your bed-wetting infatuation with eristic and irrational bile.

Teews said...

Shiv, thank you, thank you and once again thank you.

As long as people like Vice Admiral Raman Puri are around, there is hope. Does it surprise anyone that Vice Admiral Raman Puri belongs to the Naval force and he was arguing with IAF over Akash's performance? I for one am not.

I am not saying that DRDO people are saints. But when people question certain aspects of DRDO, what they forget is when they are developing a crucial technology like Scramjet propulsion no country hands it out to us on a platter. So given the constraints of budget, the lousy salaries given to the engineers which affects the retention rate, the work ethics that is so pervelant in our culture especially non private organizations, is it any surprise that we take such a long time to breakthrough technological barriers?

DRDO needed changes, that everyone agrees. Question was, were they the only ones? And the answer is obvious when you look at Vice Admiral Raman Puri's arguement with the IAF.

Anonymous said...

I would gladly take a NRI with solid technical work experience over a hack like Aroor who has zero ethics, zero knowledge and more importantly, the NRI would have worked in a competitive environment, unlike 90% of Indias priviledged journalists who can dish it out but cant handle it..


The problem is Jai, that none of your NRI/Chairborne experts that visit these boards and blogs are ever willing to come back to their motherland. They are so happy earning and living abroad, getting their children US passports that coming to India would be the last thing on their minds.

The JingoNRIs area always basking in the glory of Sam Pitroda and others, but take a survey and you wont find even 1 percent of them willing to come back.

Anonymous said...

the NRI would have worked in a competitive environment

Oh, i may point out that all the great work done at DRDO that all the Jingo NRIs fawn over is done by Non-NRI scientists. So some good all that competitive environment is if you cant use it for the country.

Anonymous said...

To the last two anons- guys- your indignation about NRIs is sooo old. I know its an article of faith amongst some of you teenyboppers/in your 20's crowd but FYI I know way too many NRIs who have returned to India.
Including two chappies who went to work in areas so diverse as EW antennas after a long stint in one of the best labs in Europe to another guy who was into irradiating food.

Now idiots like Aroor- people who are so mediocre themselves that all they can do is write poison prose in third rate rags like the (S)express wouldnt know a professional environment if it bit them in the butt..but there are many of us who know and who have done our bit for India, and encourage others to do it as well.

Thats the hilarious part, on the one hand jerks like Aroor dump on all local scientists, and then dismiss those who can see thru his irrational "i have a small ding dong" syndrome as fawning NRIs!
But NRIs themselves are traitors who have ditched Mother India..ROTFL...get a clue will ya Aroor?

Now while Aroor is busy "impressing everyone" with his elite English vocab (keep it up son, one day you might end up in a haw haw institute in furrin land) I know there are other "non NRI scientists" who cant phrase any great shakespearan sonnatas but can design circuits in their sleep and live and breathe technology.

Thats the whole bloody problem- we have mediocre idiots like Aroor- who hasnt worked ONE DAY in a professional technology driven environment, thinking that he can actually play judge and jury with scientists and then couching his hubris in "patriotism".

So Raman Puri punctured this windbags balloon, and what does he say? Apologies for his DRDO bashing...now he uses it to preen.
No amount of fancy prose can disguise his almost complete lack of ethics.

So dear Aroor, nowadays a DRDO scientist goes through BE (4 years) + GATE, then a 2 year MTech, plus a screening exam, then begins his work..dear chap, do you even have a basic engineering degree?

Journalism appears to be the one field in India where "sifarish" and "rapidex english speaking course oops prose" manages to get such word-jihadis employment with ZILCH in actual achievements to show for it.


-Jai

Anonymous said...

>>> to say that's a slap in shiv aroor's face is to negate the very purpose of what we set out to do.

each of DRDOs achievements is a solid slap in your face and kick in your rear. each time DRDO achieves a success, there will be many of us laughing at the spectacle that is you, and your public humiliation for lying through your teeth.

thats the way it is.

>>>the series was a spot check on everything. it worked in some ways. it didn't in some ways.

the series was grade A copy paste that would have had you kicked out for plagiarism in any decent newspaper. its your luck that you were in an organization as bereft of ethics as you are.


>>> the point is, as defence journalists we are all too often wooed by arms companies, asking for a little "extra" on the page for a price. there are those who bend to it (you'd be amazed how many), and there are those who don't.



thanks for the confession. anything else?



>>>the fact remained that drdo needed a nudge, and that's what we did, however self-indulgent that may sound!


it doesnt sound self indulgent. it sounds like a guy who was caught spinning tall tales and is now out to convince anyone who;d care to listen that he did not make a complete balls up.


Vivek

Sandy said...

I do not have time to wright a comment now but would say that I have start loving you!!!!!!!

The second comment was not that appropriate. Criticize in a civilized way listed facts. It would be better that way.

Sandy.

Zero said...

Queenie Aroor,

The perceived death threat is same as the perception that you carry on your being a defence journalist. Both of them are your mental creation. I pelt a stone on stray dog, never kill it.

On Chacko Joseph from Frontier India. I have read his articles may be from 2000? He was not a regular writer, He never wrote on patriotist. He is extremely good at technical details, sometimes bit in correct, we at DRDO are not perfect too. But his technical understanding and not to mention his writings are extremely good. I have seen him debating with you (untill he wrote that he won't reply to you as you do not have any basic understanding on tech or weapons.). You kept accusing him being a jingoist, which he never exhibited. All he had asked you was to understand basics and then write. He even tried to make you look at things in prespectively (I remember Prithvi battery problem, LCA Sulur deployments etc).

Put is a nice manner, you are no match for him. He is simply superior. His articles are plain way of looking at things. He is the best Indian Defence Journalist till date in terms of his reporting.We just laugh when you try to pull him down. If you see orkut where you tried to pull him down on Rakesh issue, every one pulled you down (even Rakesh scrapped me "good.") Quneeie, you are simply hated by all.

Another mis conception of yours is that you tried make DRDO see things. It never happened. There is a committee going around in DRDO which has taken "professional" help to figure out stuff. You will bury you head in sand for what you have written in that crap articles in Indian Express.

You articles have created a generation of haters in DRDO. They don't just hate you, there are others. You insulted us, a lot of us are going to be in positions in next few or more years. We will see you then.

What a journalist you are? You peddle old reports and call it investigative. You do not understand basics of "defence armaments" and absolutely no technical knowledge. You write wrong things and have alienated both the readers and defence officials (I am aware on the hate levels on you and other liffafas in the official machinery). They just bare you.

We read every one like creaps like yourselves, Ajai Shukla, Rajat Pandit and others. We try to see angles, not that you guys are popular. So next time we read you, don't feel flattered.

Anonymous said...

This if one of the final pieces (coming late) in the IndianExpress articles that Shiv had written -- this is the closure.

Basically Shiv & Shukla were fed some bitter pills by their lifafa employers and they took the plunge thinking everything was bad with DRDO. And that probably was the best thing to happen for DRDO -- because the aftermath of those articles only showed how much public support DRDO had, with so many people rubbishing and showing up loopholes in those articles. Because simply those articles were nothing but decade old reports. If only Shiv had a basic understanding of R&D or paused to understand the 'developmental problems' that every weapon system goes through then he wouldnt have resorted to such malignant campaign.

Anyway Shiv was caught with his pants down when he reported the "torsion bar failure for Arjun at Ashwamedh". I still cant get over the sarcasm with which he wrote that article and how it boomeraned on him. Way to go Shiv.

After (s)crapping Arjun, Shukla is now backing it. After (s)crapping Akash, Shiv is now backing it - or rather "finally" he understands the difference now between Spyder & Akash roles. Good to see that DRDO has taught you guys a lesson.

Shiv Aroor said...

jai: couple of points against your ball-rash talk. i never said NRIs ditched the motherland. i merely spoke of a handful of them, armed with engineering degrees, who laughably beam back bile happy with the detachment (with some notable exceptions of course). of course i don't have an engineering degree, and going by the quality of language and attitude of some, thankfully not! second, what do you really know about professional environments apart from the fact that i was with the express? third, why would i even need to produce what raman puri said to me (for a tv story) here on this blog if i didn't think it was important or wasn't somewhat affected by it? where at all have i preened about this information? think about these things before you let yourself go. stop being so full of wrath, you're boneheadedness is showing you up.

Shiv Aroor said...

vivek:

"each of DRDOs achievements is a solid slap in your face and kick in your rear. each time DRDO achieves a success, there will be many of us laughing at the spectacle that is you, and your public humiliation for lying through your teeth."

never been so flattered my whole life. the sole purpose of those successes to kick my rear?! wow. raw nerves will never end. wobegone, national defence. and now vivek, go get your fix of the k-serials.

Zero said...

Enjoy some credible news on Akash on Frontier India. See the technical details and what the queenie aroor publishes. Huge defference



IAF initiates process for inducting Akash and Trishul SAM’s

Shiv Aroor said...

zero:

a lot of us are going to be in positions in next few or more years. We will see you then.

ROTFL! positions! keep telling yourself that, zero. it's noble to have ambitions. but that aside, it's just a little rich that your frenzied, farcical and ultimately idiotic wrath has to come out on a post that's positive on drdo. or is it the aftershock? rest assured, it doesn't matter what you do or don't read -- hopefully not on the job! and your hilarious threat quoted above will now be an excellent conversation starter with the (surprisingly) large number of friends and contacts i have at drdo, post-series. so keep up the ambitions, bro. like i told someone before, it's noble work (or lack thereof) you're doing.

Zero said...

Queenie Aroor,

Lets see who will have the last laugh. The joke is on you currently.

Jury is public.

Anonymous said...

Folks, if you hate aroor and others, what is this psychotic desire to come and read his blog? you are free to ignore it.. but hey you cant do that. you only need to look into yourself and figure out why.

Anonymous said...

Chacko Joseph better than Aroor? Chackos an amatuer. Hes a good one at that. He doesnt do it for a living. But he has a long way to go. Infact he should get out of mumbai more often.

Anonymous said...

anon@7:48PM....As someone told here coming here, criticising and bashing Aroor is a public service, pls dont mistake it for loving to read good writeup from Aroor...

I have to accept that lately Aroor started delivering some good aritcles.

Shiv...don't u think it is ridiculous in commenting like this "...the series was a spot check on everything. it worked in some ways. it didn't in some ways. what it did do was bring the debate to a head. not just from NRI nitwits, but from people in government and parliament. DRDO is infinitely more open with the press now. there have been structural changes. things are looking up. the agni test was successful, so was the ABM..."

R u saying becos of ur article drdo ABM test is successful, is it? This is called Patriotism, is it? Shall we say, becos of our bashings you started writing some good pieces..?What a shameless twit your are. Yes, stil you are delivering the Arjun report which you promised...and u questioned the accountability of drdo.

dude..before talking about patriotism etc..pls take excerise in how to read the parltiment reports correctly and we have seen how you twisted that one by your 'interest', otherwise we have to talk about idiotism.period.

Joe

Abhiman said...

Mr. Aroor, the decision by the "import-loving" IAF to even agree to witness user-trials for the Akash, let alone induct it, is positive news.

The defence minister in October 2006 had announced that the user-trials for the Trishul were to be scheduled "soon", as the development work on it was over. For the trials, he said that the IAF & DRDO were to enter negotiations to decide the performance specifications for the user-trials. Thus, in my view there was still no need to purchase the Spyder systems immediately after that announcement.

Had it been the other way round, then it may be certain that the IAF would have given "umpteen" chances for user-trials of the Spyder, before choosing between the Spyder and Trishul. But in this case, the IAF did not allow the Trishul a window of just a few months.

If one observes a pattern, whenever an announcement about purchasing hardware from abroad is made, it is seldom (rather never) rolled back, even though at a later date an equivalent Indian system is presented, or even if its very need becomes unnecessary. Prime examples are the case of Spyder missile vis-a-vis Trishul (and even Akash, had the MoD cleared the import of the long range Spyder), the T-90 tanks vis-a-vis Arjun (despite the T-90's numerous failures), and now the MRCA deal.

In case of the MRCA deal, when it is abundantly clear that the Tejas shall trounce the MRCA's introduction in the IAF by a few years, there is absolutely no political will to rollback this proposal either from the govt. or the IAF. There are such high expectations from the Govts. of US, Sweden, Russia and France and exacerbated by the arms-agent fed media, that the RFP's will be issued. Of course, the pressure from arms-dealers notwithstanding.

Thank you.

Teews said...

" Anon Wrote,
Folks, if you hate aroor and others, what is this psychotic desire to come and read his blog? you are free to ignore it.. but hey you cant do that. you only need to look into yourself and figure out why."

Oh please, you are mistaken about that. The reason we read Shiv or Aroors post is not just for ourselves but for the other readers who don't necessarily know the difference and will take what they read and accept it as the ultimate truth.

If Journalism is a tool for check point on the systems of a democratic country then there will never be a better check point than well informed citizens of that country to verify what journalist's write. Gone are the days when people used to write facts and let people form their opinion. Nowadays they form an opinion before they write and then try push it down our throt. By Shiv's own points mentioned above, there are people who accept tokens from arm companies to push their agenda. It is this agenda that we all are trying to break, that is why you see so many of us supporting DRDO and other establishments.

So don't ask us to ignore an article which has an agenda of its own. Thats what you want, but that what we will continue to fight.

Shiv Aroor said...

joe: actually i never even insinuated that the successful tests were as a result of the series. what a moronic thought! i merely said things were looking up for DRDO, and that there was no question of not telling it like it is. you need to chill, bro. you're heading for a nerve thing.

Anonymous said...

Shiv...what you have written now is moronic...so..in the span of few months from your writeup{express series} things suddenly changed and looked up..is it? And you attributed the lookup to successful test..hmm..so..a bad product become good in few months..nice story..sorry for repeating the samething to you again.. developing a product is NOT like writing a piece in journo..to change according to the moods of the public and one need industry sense or r/d sense to understand this...

Pls dont play with the words...i have seen how you bolded only particular parts in the interview from CNS to suit your agenda.. the proof is still here

I give credit where it is due..recent articles from you are unbiased and some are thought provoking and i given my appreciation there..

having slaughtered the drdo in express series with biased undiluted moronic stuff with the claim of patriotism is laughable. Only credit you can take is more people started talking more about drdo. And the truth who is right and who is wrong is flying in the face....

My remorse is with the comment you passed in the comment section and not with the article which is good. As usual my appreciation for coming up with a good one.

Joe

Anonymous said...

Adm. Puri says: "As it stands today, the Akash is hugely more capable than any SAM in the IAF's inventory".

If the Akash is better than the S-300, then the DRDO has done better than anyone expected it to... :-O

- Mihir

Shiv Aroor said...

joe: obviously i need to clarify again, since there's a bit of a communication gap. i did not imply that drdo is doing better because of the series. how would that be possible? what i meant was that when things are going good following the series (not BECAUSE of the series, for godsake), there was a greater degree of transparency. there were press conferences, and now there are regular briefings. that's ALL i said. relax. don't feel so injured for something i didn't even insinuate. pick something else out.

Zero said...

Queenie Aroor comes up with headlines like "there is hope for this and end of sight for that."

All this must be news to him but not others.After all he had a 8 page issue article printing old reports.

After few months he comes back saying "see, it might work , after all I wrote that article in IE, see the results etc etc."

now he comes up with the new revelation "others take bribe and I am a true reporter."

Where else we can berate this maniac who calls himself defense reporter? Indian Express run by the Shekar Gupta will never publish it. I wrote a lot of times.

On blog and TV he is trying to get in good books by saying good things on DRDO. Even then he exposes his dumb side.The fact that he is not fit for being a defense reporter does not strike him.

Anonymous said...

shiv wrote those negative stories about DRDO at the behest of Shekhar Gupta...he was aksed to write them...it was all planned and staged...and now that Shiv is out of Express he is coming out with his true colours on this blog or thru this blog

Not that it has made any difference to the functioning of DRDO, but Shiv and the Express gang think that they made DRDO accountable and did a service to teh nation

The biggest frauds these express people I say.

Jayanthi S.

Anonymous said...

jayanti, sad that nothing will change the functioning of drdo. it will always be a fcked up babugiri run place with no hope for progress or profit. under the guise of fundamental research, you morons will go on making dried upma and other nonsense, and not give rockets and missiles. first deliver something, then we can talk. and i am not talking about sonars. how about some good modern lethal weapons for the country? please, drdo is a bloody joke. don't try peddling your nonsense on the net just because you cant take criticism. i was with drdo briefly, then i went abroad, and four years ago joined back drdo because there is a lot of job satisfaction at my particular lab in blore. but there are enormous things to do for improvement in this organisation. to make false propaganda that aroor's series has galvanised the drdo brass against the media or aroor or shekhar gupta is dishonest, juvenile and more than anything else, a lie. i interact with scientists and officers every day, and i can tell that there is a great deal of introspection. people are hurt by the series, but there is no military mobilisation against the media. it has served to bring in a period of good transformation. we are the young scientists, and we must make this possible, no matter what the media says. just after the series, when abm series is successful, drdo holds a huge press conference. why? never in the past has it done so for a test... why the ballyhoo? anyway, point is, instead of diverting the argument to shekhar and express and whoever else, the fact is we are in the organistion and only we can change it. so stop lying to yourself by looking the other way. you will ruin the organisation further. my humble advice.

Anonymous said...

Last anon,

if scientists inside think and feel that way then why the attrition....why are hordes of them leaving...to change the system we have to be inside the system...and by the way if people inside were hurt by the series, and people like you are talking about military mobilisation against the media, let me tell you that the series was run with the help from someone inside only....it wouldn't have been possible otherwise.....for Shekhar, it was a sureshot success story...business garnering method for the otherwise dwindling paper...poor Aroor-likes are made the pawn

Jayanthi S

Anonymous said...

last anon@3:25 PM: haha ...gud..if you want the organisation to change then you or newspaper should have concentrated on what problem DRDO facing in manpower resources..etc and what to be done to avert this.

Instead, what we read in express and other newspapers, hmm? "Arjun tanked", "Akash is dud"..etc. These things what you believe made ,in your own words, "good transformations", is it? My God!Do you know the sources quoted in these junks pieces where unethical interpretation of parlimentary reports and other things, even that reports seem to be outdated.

I suprised, when you say, drdo hold a big press after ABM test after the express series. Anon, I dont know how far you knew abt DRDO. ABM test is itself is a significant startegic one. Only two countires tested it before. So by giving big press meet will solve the problem you faced in drdo? You stike aiming for a orange, you got a lemon, shall i say i achieved the result ? C'mon...

I think what Jayanthi S said is right. A lifafa express...

Shiv: thanks for the clarification...thought you were making a belligerent move.

Joe

Anonymous said...

last anon@3:25 PM: I doubt you are from drdo....I doubt on your identity that you are a scientist.

Joe

Sniperz11 said...

how about some good modern lethal weapons for the country?

Being from the DRDO, you have probably heard about the LCA, Arjun, all the missiles, Insas, etc.

I wonder which lab you are from. DARE??? LRDE??? Being Anon, you can of course say that you are the queen herself. Of Course, if you really are from DRDO, it would be nice to hear more about what media reports are doing (and not just at ur lab).

And, what about the many glaring inaccuracies in the stories??

Anonymous said...

Anon@3:25 pm- dear Aroor you effin' moron, you think just because you post under anon, we cant make out who you are? the syntax, the speech, even the bs about upma..fuck aroor you are the pits, since nobody is supporting you, now you have to pretend to be anon and pat yourself on ur own back, u retard.

and of course u will come back with ur rapidex english speaking course to pretend otherwise, jackass.

and lol, in order to prevent the criticism by people who are aware of aroors lack of scientific/ professional credentials, we have him pretend to have now gone abroad for 4 years and return.

for all those retards who think aroor has changed his colors look at the 3:25 post and see him blaze err dump forth. that is the true aroor, queenie as "zero" calls him...a hypocritical prima donna who cannot accept that he is wrong and bloviates away to glory.

chutiya, i worked abroad, i have returned to india and i see far more commitment in indian orgs like drdo than many organizations i have seen abroad, sure drdo is not perfect and has babugiri and this and that, but chutiyas like aroor still peddle the line that only sonars come from drdo, fellow does not even know how much the af and navy rely on drdo for ew (bar that laughable copy pasted puff piece he did on dare) from its labs like dare, dlrl and deal or even the work on optics thats gone on in lastec.

aroor ur a disgrace to your profession, even a streetwalker has more ethics than u do.

to the chap who asked why we visit this blog its because a liar like aroor needs the junta to keep him on the straight and narrow. whether his personal or official life, this bugger has made a habit out of peddling lies.

Abhiman said...

Mr. Aroor, I may suggest you to moderate the responses to your blog, as it is turning into personal quarrels etc.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

if he does that it effectively proves that he has lost the ability to debate.

only a coward would do that and lets see whether aroor has fallen that far.

and abhiman buzz off. you have been banned for being a troll on other forums, hilarious to see u suck up to aroor.

vivek

Shiv Aroor said...

anon (!!): why would i post under anon, when i can pretty much say what i want to right here on my blog?? ha! dude, you need to get off your narcos, man! (and since when did streetwalkers not have ethics? they're compelled to do what they do because of poverty, not some ethics crisis, you cur.) and if i read anon's comment right, he wasn't really congratulating me was he? what i think he/she meant is that this imaginary pervasion of hate is just that -- imaginary. there are people in drdo with better things to do than perpetuate their harships by being angry and frustrated. they'd rather listen, dismiss what they don't need (or think is crap), and continue doing what they're doing and doing it better. so while you give yourself auto-fellatio over your phoney discovery of syntax (!), maybe it's just that some people find it better to express themselves (thankfully!) better without invective and frustration.

Anonymous said...

hey indeed is this joker the same dude who used to post on pakdef in that amazingly funny passive style? kyaa maar kahi wahan par yaar. :-)

shud have known better. and he wants the same here. :-p

Shiv Aroor said...

this was by far the most interesting comments section! but i just love the way things have swung here so far. anyway, hopefully we can move on now. will post next on monday.

Anonymous said...

hi can we sign up for blogger using yahoo

thanks
vibhu

Shiv Aroor said...

vihbu: don't think yahoo can be used for blogger. gmail.

abhiman: not an option. i don't want to moderate comments. someone raised a point earlier about "comment deleted by author" asking whether that was me deleting comments. to clarify, that's the author of the comment, not the blog's author. it i deleted the comment, the message would say, "comment deleted by moderator or administrator". i haven't and don't plan to delete any comments.

Anonymous said...

anon (!!): why would i post under anon, when i can pretty much say what i want to right here on my blog?? ha! dude, you need to get off your narcos, man! (and since when did streetwalkers not have ethics? they're compelled to do what they do because of poverty, not some ethics crisis, you cur.) and if i read anon's comment right, he wasn't really congratulating me was he? what i think he/she meant is that this imaginary pervasion of hate is just that -- imaginary. there are people in drdo with better things to do than perpetuate their harships by being angry and frustrated. they'd rather listen, dismiss what they don't need (or think is crap), and continue doing what they're doing and doing it better. so while you give yourself auto-fellatio over your phoney discovery of syntax (!), maybe it's just that some people find it better to express themselves (thankfully!) better without invective and frustration.

shiv aroor, its so bloody easy to make out that u needed to support your own statements since nobody is sticking up for you!

and yes streetwalkers do have ethics- poverty doesnt drive all o' them to it, but its often a lifestyle choice- the same way journalism is one too.. did you become a journo out of poverty?
simple fact: a pros would have better ethics than u display. a fair assumption since thats how low you have fallen.


just look at you- that hyperbole laced, rapidex english speaking crap which you write and it is word to word the same as anon@3:25 pm and now ur interpreting him to us! ha! he is "different"...sure if u say so.

of course drdo is pissed off at u, moron. they know what rubbish u wrote. now u can deny it and pretend that alls well. and no babe, I dont need to get fellatio or give any, queenie, i leave that to journalists like you.

while you were busy getting a length off shekhar gupta others were working on actual jobs doing something. actual, as in not writing rapidex english, but making products.

so queenie, you have fallen so bloody low that you need to spawn as anon to support your own execrable writeups. what a state of affairs.

shoot, u are so bloody obvious. first "zero" found u out earlier and now even i can make out tera kyaa haal hain.

Shiv Aroor said...

anon: well, i guess those are your thoughts, and we'll just have to move on. congratulations on your discovery. pat yourself on a job well done!

Anonymous said...

can we please all stop this pointless "debate"... it is going no where and is really irritating for all. pl just get over with this and stop.

Anonymous said...

Fight, fight, fight...popcorn and munchies and coke!!!

But seriously when i read that anon comment, i thought it was aroor too. Its ditto him.

So aroor supported himself so whats the big deal given the way ppl here have been savaging him he needed to help himself out yaar. Yes, it was not a good thing to do and all that, and his comments (yet again) against DRDO were unwarranted, but cut him some slack.

Lets be more positive - the akash article is a good step for aroor, lets hope he keeps to that. It shows a balanced writeup with the effort to contact Admiral Puri, quote him as is etc.

Now that he is out of express, he is not subject to Shekhar Guptas whims and fancies either, is he? Lets hope that he can think and write for himself now, not for HMV.

Vibhu,

My question exactly- I signed up using yahoo, and the bloody bugger died on me. I am trying to login using yahoo and back I am to this page without a bloggger id. Quite frusty I tell you.

My 2 rupees.

Amit

Anonymous said...

I dont think u can sign up to blogger with yahoo

its gmail

but yaah it has login problems from netcafe or any slow net connection

the comments page dies gives 404 error

Shiv Aroor said...

anon@3.25PM: terribly sorry about this! everyone here thinks you are me. that's got to be a bigger insult than you'd bargained for. hahaha! err..sorry. maybe that's a sign that there should be less anons and more more names here, huh?

Anonymous said...

Shiv u sock puppet u dont need to apologise to yourself!!!! LOL, give it up already man, o u got caught, big deal.Just be a man and face it out.

Anonymous said...

Shiv, whats ur next article on? Cant say what I enjoy more, the articles, or the comments..err...
This is the most spicy forum i have been on.

PS: Were you with Hindustan Times or CNN-IBN? Theres this reporter with specs and curly hair who reports on defence. Just putting names to faces.

:-)


Amit

Anonymous said...

@amit, that is vishal thapar another bagula bhagat veteran. he was writing for hindustan times and is now on cnnibn.

Anonymous said...

abbe aroor dont know if you have noticed or not but chacko joseph has pinched the two new akash pix from this post of yours and hosted it on his frontier india website with watermark etc! ek aur panga ho jaye bhai!

Sniperz11 said...

The pics are most probably DRDO releases, and can be freely used.

Shiv Aroor said...

last anon: the drdo pics were e-mailed to me. as sniperz11 points out, they're not my pictures, so folks are free to use them as long as they credit drdo.

Ajai said...

Hi Shiv,

What are these semi-literate characters doing on your blog? They seem to believe --- in a grunting, oinking, animal sort of way --- that when someone's argument runs counter to theirs, it can be wished away by unsubstantiated accusations that the person has been paid off by someone! Sounds a bit like many of our politicians here, doesn't it?

There are two sides to every argument and if one person starts accusing the other of having been paid off, it's equally easy for a return compliment to be paid. So where's the argument then?

But I suppose that logic requires some intellect to comprehend.

Just to clarify, my view of the Arjun tank remain unchanged. The cretins who believe something has changed, and that "Ajai Shukla has done a turnaround" are basing it solely on one fact alone: that I've done an on-ground report on the Arjun.

The TV story that I did makes ONLY the following points... and that's pure journalism.

1. These are the first video pictures of the Arjun.
2. The problem with the hydro-gas suspension appears to have been fixed.
3. The driver says it's a world class tank. (NOTE: the driver says it... that's a viewpoint. Nitwits who don't understand reportage perhaps have a problem understanding the difference between what a reporter says and a view expressed by someone else).
4. The Arjun will be pitted against the T-72 and the T-90 in comparative trials in June.
5. The officer in charge of the project says (NOTE: I don't say it... he does) that he thinks the Arjun is better and he hope for a level playing field in the trials.
6. 14 tanks are ready for the trials and THE OFFICERS WHO MADE THE TANK are confident it will perform well.

Not too difficult to understand? Not for an imbecile. But there are too many who don't meet that qualification.

My fundamental views of the Arjun's flaws (posted on Bharat Rakshak years ago) remain unchanged. Especially my views that:

1. The tank suffers from a hybrid design where several major components have been bought off-the-shelf and slapped together into a tank.
2. The tank suffers from a high profile, high visibility, high vulnerability to helicopter, ATGM and tank attack from ranges beyond which it can pick up those enemies.
3. The issue of translating a prototype into a production line remains beset with Quality Control problems.
4. Strategic mobility remains a major problem for the Arjun.
5. If the tank does not perform well in trials, it should be shelved and categorised a technology demonstrator, rather than shoved down the throats of the army.

I also believe that if, on the other hand, the Arjun performs well in trials and comes up with even acceptable performances, give it a chance in service. But for that it must perform to an acceptable degree.

But there's too much nuance here for the more simplistic of us to understand, isn't there?

cheers,

Ajai

Sniperz11 said...

Ajaiji,

It would be nice to hear what you feel personally about the Arjun, as a tank man, after having seen it personally.

Coming to your article, I guess it was a pleasant surprise to see a piece that didn't have a hero-villain story to it.

As for your views, please elaborate, since most of the problems will be fixed with scale production...

1. Off the shelf technologies: I wonder which ones these are- engine (indigenous one being developed), track (L & T making local ones), Sights... can't think of anything else.

As the MoD have themselves stated, with scale roduction, cost and indigenous content will increase.You don't expect to create the complete thing locally unless you have large orders. Otherwise, the media will scream high cost.

2. Silhouette: Arjun size is comparable to the others in its class...

its height (2.32 m) is 9 cm more than the T-90, width 6 cm more. Considering its extra elevation/depression, don't you think thats acceptable? Especially considering that the Arjun is much lower than the others in its class (most are 2.4 m at least).

What about the power of its gun, which makes accuracy at extreme ranges possible? That would make sure that no tank can get into gun range of Arjun.

Even if it is fired upon, its armor is far better than the T-90, isn't it?

3. the Problem is with the OFB, and I'm confident that it would be fixed, dont you think?

5. Dont you think that it would be difficult for the Army which is used to T-series to adjust to the Arjun doctrine, which might skew the Trials?

You never mention the changing GSQRs ever. Why is that?

Also, you allege that the Arjun Project has cost 2000 Crores! (source: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2007/01/defence-production-illusion-of-public.html). Even the Parliamentary report mentions only 315 crores. Sir, unless we have projects we dont know about, I believe you are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Who is making this bonking cacophony..Oh..Is it the same BS (boradsword) srimaan Ajai Shukla ji..Srimaan ji..namaste..

>>What are these semi-literate characters doing on your blog?

Just as what you are doing here, LOL

>>that when someone's argument runs counter to theirs, it can be wished away by unsubstantiated accusations that the person has been paid off by someone!

Yes..becoz when someone lies throu their teeth, misintrepret the reports, voraciously onesided and didnt care to look at the other side.

>>There are two sides to every argument

True as there is two side to the same story. For everthing you chastise a single entity without a proper reason, then you carry the hallmark of a lifafa.

>>But I suppose that logic requires some intellect to comprehend

Talking about madrasa logic? Then it is not comprehendable to anyone except you.

>>3. The driver says it's a world class tank. (NOTE: the driver says it... that's a viewpoint. Nitwits who don't understand reportage perhaps have a problem understanding the difference between what a reporter says and a view expressed by someone else).

Yes true..this was told by driver. OTOH, When our Srimaan also told that Arjun can see beyond 2km to destory the adversary..can we take it as his own comment or parroted comment. why becoz it run contrary to his idea that tankwarfare will not take place beyon 900m.

>>2. The tank suffers from a high profile, high visibility, high vulnerability to helicopter, ATGM and tank attack from ranges beyond which it can pick up those enemies.

So T-72/T-90 is not facing the same problem, only Arjun as our Srimaan Skula ji.. What a logic...

>>The tank suffers from a hybrid design where several major components have been bought off-the-shelf and slapped together into a tank.

I couldnt understand what Srimaan ji is smoking here. Will he clarify...

>>. The issue of translating a prototype into a production line remains beset with Quality Control problems

Every new product face this problem. Our Srimaan ji got the clue only now it seems.

>>If the tank does not perform well in trials, it should be shelved and categorised a technology demonstrator, rather than shoved down the throats of the army.

Our Srimaan ji is mahatma...what a intelligent quote..

>>But there's too much nuance here for the more simplistic of us to understand, isn't there?

When one does'nt have anything to prove, a simple way for cop out..

Srimaan ji...thanks for stating that whatever you told is only your view, not a generals view expressed during your chai-biscot session with him. Bada namaste ji...

- Diehard Maverick

Anonymous said...

Ajai

most of us have a better education than you will ever have, and probably even earn more than you do. and being the kind of competitive chaps that we are, we dont take kindly to mediocrity- even amongst journalists.
nor do we cozen ourselves with being gentlemen when the opposite party behaves like a cur off the streets. that is why you got slapped around on bharat-rakshak and that is why in real life too, when u try to browbeat the bloody civilians you'll get it back in good measure. trust you can understand this- its not the army old boy where by dint of your beard and stripes you can abuse the jawans and have them listen to your abuse without question.
grow up, get a life and stop being an attention shock jock,

adios

vivek

Anonymous said...

Ajai,

but, kudos for that arjun piece- at least you were objective.


vivek

Anonymous said...

@Ajai Shukla,

Sir could you tell us more about the Arjun, and what its operators feel about it?
I am sure you must have talked to more than just two people you showed on NDTV?

Amit Kumar Biswas

Sniperz11 said...

Chill with the personal insults, and argue by fact and logic, if you have heads, that is.

Ajai Shukla was a Armored Corps Person and knows more about tank warfare than any of us can ever know. Obviously, his views would be grounded in logic and experience. Instead of calling him names, and doubting his education, try listening to his logic and argue with fact. That will surely help. And for gods sake, show some respect to our Army.


I join with Amit's request to Ajai to give us an in-depth analysis of the Arjun, and what he thought of it, and whats the logic in his views.

Abhiman said...

Mr. Ajai Shukla, although I appreciate your articles, but I may disagree with your analysis on the Arjun.

One one hand, you fully disassociate yourself from the views of the Arjun's "driver", the officer in charge of the Arjun project, and the 16 officers who confidently state that the Arjun will perform well in trials.

On the other hand, you agree with negatives views given by other army officers, which you have quoted earlier.

So my query to you is, why do you only believe the negative officers, and distance yourself from the tank driver, the offcer in charge etc. ? Infact the views of the latter are far more ready for conviction, and should be an attestation of authenticity and the plain facts.

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Well SniperZ11..civility is not a oneway street....being from Army and a stint in media, he should have conducted himself properly..that is what the basic education one would have expected from him...not only he spewed insults to the readers of this blog by name-calling them, he spewed insult to Shiv aroor too, by stating only nitwits are reading his blog...what a shame to this blog and the readers...

Anonymous said...

dear sniper, i often deal with people with far more qualifications than ajai and several of his peers dont agree with him. in fact its shameless to see an army man use his service background to demand respect and resort to abuse. hes not in the army anymore and yeh sab gundagardi and gutter behaviour doesnt work on educated people. it may work on some sowar who says yes sahib and salams ajai shukla. unfortunately we are not those. and coming to his tank qualifications, there are hundreds of people who disagree with him, theres no shortage of tankmen in india to talk to. its just a sad state of affairs that the ones who are shock jocks are invariably the most cantankerous, and arrogant of the lot.

cheers
jai

Anonymous said...

so, for the record i agree with vive- tho' the bit about pay was crass and was unecessary, but neither were ajais comments warranted.

regards
jai

Anonymous said...

"he spewed insult to Shiv aroor too, by stating only nitwits are reading his blog...what a shame to this blog and the readers... "


well thats probably because ever since aroor started his blog, ajais blog went dead, nobody visits, nobody posts there, nobody cares.

a bit of the greeneyed onida envy i guess.

jai

Ajai said...

Anonymous, you little twit, you don't even have the courage to post under your name, leave alone posting your educational qualifications! It's best that you continue pretending that you have a name and an education.

I can well understand your reticence! If I was talking about tanks without ever having driven one, fired one, commanded one and experienced for decades the environment in which India will fight (if it ever does), I'd be posting under "Anonymous" too.

You're just an opinionated little ignoramus who's read two and a half websites about tanks, cut-and-pasted comparative statistics, but never experienced the practicalities of operating in a tank.

Furthermore, even if your mad paranoid worldview of lifafas (hey shiv, which planet is this guy from?) were correct (which it is not), I'm certainly given a monthly lifafa from NDTV and Business Standard. Anonymous, you loser, have you ever been paid a cent to publish a word you write?

Guess what. You won't ever be, no matter how well educated you imagine yourself to be. Because you're utterly ignorant about anything to do with tank warfare in the Indian context.

All you'll ever do is to hide behind your "anonymous" and post stuff that gels with the rah rah morons you post alongside.

This is not (as you in your blunt weapon-style manner suggest) because I'm trying to do down Shiv. He writes good sense. It's people like you who are the nitwits on this blog.

Don't worry about my blog. And don't bother going there either. It's for serious students of defence production and logistics, not for cut-and-paste boyz with toyz like yerself.

Bye anonymous! Get yourself a life. And get yourself a name. But use it only when you start writing sense.