Sunday, August 10, 2008

The Truth about the Rohini radar (from Prasun K Sengupta)

FORCE Magazine/Tempur defence writer Prasun K Sengupta wrote in a few days ago to say, "Before DRDO and BEL take us all to Cloud 9 regarding the Rohini and Revathi 3-D radars, Rohini and Revathi 3-D radars are derivatives of the Polish TRS-19 radar, developed by Poland's Przemyslowly Instytut Telekomunikacji SA. What the DRDO has done in fact is buy all the IPRs and manufacturing licences from the two Polish companies. I had written about this way back in late 2006."

I quote from the article Prasun's referes to from FORCE Magazine in late 2006, titled "Flights of Fire":

By late 2001 the DRDO had inked a comprehensive technologytransfer-cum-design rights buyout package with Radwar and PIT under which the DRDO would obtain and transfer the production technology for the PIT-developed TRS-17 S-band, 3-D radar with 240kmrange, and Radwar-developed N-22 Sband, 2-D 100km-range gapfiller radar, their respective antennae hoisting mechanisms, microwave line-of-sight signals relay antennae and related command-andcontrol consoles to the MoD-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) who in turn would call them the Central Acquisition Radar (CAR) and the Battery Surveillance Radar (BSR).

While the CAR would be used along with a Group Control Centre for tracking up to 120 targets and providing fire-direction for up to three Batteries (each comprising four launchers, with each launcher carrying three missiles) of the Akash MSAM, the BSR and its Battery Control Centre will be able to track 72 airborne targets and will be linked to the BEL-built Rajendra target engagement radar, whose main antenna array will comprise 2,000 ferrite phase shifters and will be able to track 64 targets out to 60km, and engage four airborne targets simultaneously with 12 missiles. For the Army and Air Force variants of the Trishul SHORADS, the DRDO opted for Radwar’s S-band, 40kmrange 3-D mobile multi-beam search radar as the principal tactical early warning sensor.

Armed with these technology-transfer deals, the DRDO had by 2003 reinvigorated the Akash’s R&D phase and on 7 December 2005 conducted Akash’s 50th test-firing which, according to DRDL Director Dr Prahlada, was the first test-firing conducted with a fully functional Battery-level command, control and communications system.


Anonymous said...

Buying IPR rights from poland for these Radar, is a correct decision.DRDO has done nothing wrong! infact we fail in all our projects by reinventing the wheel!
Atlast BEL and DRDO have shown some common sense.

Anonymous said...

i think what prasun is trying to say is that the hoo-ha surrounding the handing over the radar looks like drdo taking credit for developing and building the radar. plus, in their press release(see shiv's earlier post), the drdo has dishonestly said, "The state-of-the-art Multifunction Medium Range Surveillance Radar has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bangalore and engineered and produced by BEL."

Anonymous said...

.. which is of course hogwash. have checked up on this.. prasun's version is correct. this was a simple case of technology buying. i think it was prudent of drdo to do this, but they should not stoop so low as to take the credit. they should realise that not everyone can be fooled by them.

Anonymous said...

Man Shiv, you are puching so much the DODO scam masters that one day DODO stooges will get you.

C'mon anything acquired and built locally is indigenous and R&D belongs to DODO.

Don't we all belive in Mission computer and all crap in MKI as indigenous?? Which infact was nothing but Smith Aerospace licenced.

Anonymous said...

STFU anon. DARE has built its own avionics. you think smiths is gonna share avionics know-how with india? get real, fool!

Anonymous said...

very silly of DRDO to grab credit for something that is not its own. this is the sort of thing that makes them have such a bad reputation in the minds of the public and why they get trashed routinely in the media. where is the need to say that the radar was developed by LRDE? it is sad for LRDE itself, which otherwise is one of the better labs in DRDO. whoever wrote the drdo press release ought to be pulled up for misrepresentation, nay, lies. one step forward four steps back as far as image is concerned for drdo. shiv, i heard an armyman from tezpur heads drdo's new publicity cell? is this true? if true, then god help drdo.

Anonymous said...

why hasnt any newspaper picked up this story, and why haven't you done it for TV, Shiv? Good expose...its time to take out DRDO from its blissful honeymoon...they've been sleeping peacefully for a long time.

Anonymous said...

this is insane? how come nobody has pulled up drdo for this? this is theft of ipr if they are saying that they themselves developed the radar. someone should highlight this. thanks for the post.

Anonymous said...

troubling revelation. accountability should be a must in such cases. esp dealing with intl suppliers.

Anonymous said...

enough drdo bashing. agreed that they should not bandy something as their own if it is someone else's, but let's not take away from the fact that they've atleast managed to build the damn thing and deliver it to the hard-to-please air force. not everyone is like the navy.

Indian said...

And the DRDO bashers along with this fraud gupta fans ,suck each other.Bashing DRDO for anything is like bashing ur own mom ,just becos she fed u with the bottled milk instead of her breast milk.

Get real guys........And you people are the ones who lick the american asses for their sanctions and for all the bullshit they do.And this force magazine which never put anything great abt indians instead of projecting americans and thier long lasting cocks as great,are greater and will be greatest ................
Come on to point faults,each and every sucker comes with exagerating proofs,but where as to do the same from IA,IAF none them will have balls to do so.

Actually i was passing by and read few responses of some anony`s.this is my reply to those above

And Shiv,

You too.Get real man.Try to be nationalistic rather than being egoistic.

Anonymous said...

hello anon @1:14m...smiths aerospace kicked out team of our engineers for one of the mission computers for jags.its DARE that made a mission computer and its a sucess story! ppl do not know ,how difficult it is to do a design from basic scratch and deliver it to the customer under indian scenario,where everything has to be imported with long lead times,with aa very limited chance to do carry out modifications. Anyway Airforce has a RADAR thats pretty useful to them. Stop weeping on DRDO you guys!

Anonymous said...

it is creditable that DRDO has delivered a finished a product. let us not abuse them just because some ass in the pr cell has said that the radar is drdo developed. give credit where credit is due. and mr indian: shiv has highlighted the issue, that's all. there is nothing anti-national about it, so please stop trolling your views here. the br forums are more suited to misguided jingos like you. you will find like minded entities there who share your narrow, uninformed views.

Mr.TaxPayer said...

Great going DRDO. All the tax that we pay goes towards acquiring these capabilities for my armed force.

Morality or sentiments don't play any role here. I paid for something, I got it. I have the capability to manufacture it here and don't need to fear sanctions - that all. Why do you think every bit of defense knowledge has to be on the public domain? and being sensationalized over heated discussions?

Pride is important that minor when compared to real power & capability.

Mr.TaxPayer said...

but** minor

Anonymous said...

This is a non-issue. Buying the technology is sometimes the right decision to keep projects on track.

We see this all the time in the private sector when one company acquires another company. To give you another example, Microsoft bought the technology for DOS from another company and look where that got them.

DRDO deserves appreciation for their decision to buy the technology.

Anonymous said...

>>hello anon @1:14m...smiths aerospace kicked out team of our engineers for one of the mission computers.

May I know the reason for kicking DODO??

Ravi said...

Hi Shiv,

Prasun has been barking up the wrong tree for a long while and his claims are an absolute farce.

PIT didnt provide any technology "buy out" for LRDE to avail of.

The LRDE actually ran a phased array project called Project Vajra, ask any of us at LRDE for details, and that led to the CAR project.

DRDO was aware of PITs radar work and asked if they were interested in taking project Vajra further. The aim was to now take the phased array project and make a Planar array radar with a brand new array that would be lighter. PIT showed their own work in this regard and agreed, they had been tapped by the Polish Govt to develop a new series of radars as well.

The joint effort of both organizations was the the 3D CAR for DRDO, and the TRS-19 for Poland.

Both radars are different, and use different signal processing units.

The item common to both radars is the basic design of the planar array antenna, which scans (electronically) in elevation, and rotates for azimuth coverage.

PIT has not developed the TRS-19 further, but have concentrated on other derivatives for long range theater coverage.

PIT also ran a tender for its own separate maritime surveillance project, and purchased LRDE's antennas (slotted array) for the same.

In India, DRDO developed the 3D CAR into the Rohini. For this radar, Astra Microwave and DRDO developed new microwave components and L&T was roped in for a new rotational assembly, for the radar to make it sufficiently compact for IAF usage. The signal processing and radar data processing was designed and developed by a team led by the Late Dr Radhakrishnan of LRDE, and Dr Cleetus (ex head, LRDE). The Rohini and Revathi are completely DRDO's babies, they in fact, dont even use the original planar array developed with PIT, but a brand new one able to handle increased power, as well as an all new digital beamformer.

The Revathi in fact, is even more sophisticated. It uses a completely de novo bi axis stabilisation system again developed by the DRDO in specific for the Navy. This is because the Revathi is intended for the Navy, and needs to be stabilised.

Reading some of the responses above, and your uncritical acceptance of the bilge that Prasun writes, is saddening.

For one, give credit where credit is due.

The Rohini is an all Indian radar developed by the DRDO, with extensive time consuming involvement by the Indian Air Force, the user. It is no off the shelf import, knocked together as license assembly under fancy terms of import of technology or technology buyout.

For more details about the DRDO's radar technology, please do look at the DRDO techfocus about the same.

Prasun is habitually unreliable when it comes to talking about the DRDO or for that matter about most matters relating to Indian defence.

Case in point, please ask him for any corroborative proof about the absolute nonsense he wrote about India corroborating with Taiwan for ramjet based missiles, and for all the hoopla about India making all sorts of fancy weapons. In his latest article, he went so far as to call the BEL WLR an active phased array radar. The man does not even know the difference between a PESA and an AESA, the former of which the Rajendra based WLR is!

Each of his articles is actually different in "Facts" from the other, merely inventing stuff on the fly to impress a not too critical audience.

Most defence professionals have long got used to these incredibly jingoistic and nonsensical claims from Tempur. Unfortunately, Force continues to carry them without due investigation.

- Ravi

Ravi said...

>>>>>hello anon @1:14m...smiths aerospace kicked out team of our engineers for one of the mission computers.

May I know the reason for kicking DODO??

My dear friend, DRDO was not kicked out of Smiths. Or associated with Smiths. This is misconception which for first time I am hearing on internet.

Mission Computer project was via Hindustan Aeronautics for the Jaguar which approached Smiths as they were OEM and had inherited unit which originally developed the HUDWAC on Jaguar fighter bomber.

The agreement was inked and duly signed but user, asked for more functionality in the Jaguar PD document. This led to a brand new specifications revision, and Smiths asked for a cost revisision from HAL.

So, HAL approached the DRDO and asked if they had a project team which could take up the task instead of Smiths as case of import substitution.

In a first, ASIEO, which had developed the Mission Computing environment for the LCA with ADE, was deputed for the project, and they developed entire hardware for the Jaguar upgrade. Software was jointly developed by ASIEO (now DARE, Bangalore), HAL as well as the IAF's Software Development Insitute. The Mission computer avionics environment was also installed at HAL and appreciated by user and developers as it allowed frequent modification per user needs. This is a requirement which is essential and advantage of localisation because frequent modification need to be made to account for software change.

This was a hitherto first time project in India which marked the way for the MiG-27 project wherein ASIEO and HAL continued the practise, and included new functionality.

So as you can see, Smiths did not "kick out" DRDO, or Indian engineers. One may well say, that in this case, it was DRDO which (justifiably) deprived Smiths of an otherwise sure deal.

DARE has also developed an all new Mission computing system using current gen processing items.

Regards to you all,


Ravi said...

i think what prasun is trying to say is that the hoo-ha surrounding the handing over the radar looks like drdo taking credit for developing and building the radar. plus, in their press release(see shiv's earlier post), the drdo has dishonestly said, "The state-of-the-art Multifunction Medium Range Surveillance Radar has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bangalore and engineered and produced by BEL."

My dear friend, this is completely honest.

The Rohini has been designed by LRDE, and has been concurrently engineered by BEL. This is a new methodology which BEL has adopted for several of recent projects with DRDO, where successive improvement are included in product line itself. Astra in Hyderabad has developed several LRU including critical receiver assemblies to LRDE design. L&T has actually made the entire stabilised rotational platform in record time for this project. In Hyderabad, ECIL has actually integrated the entire display system. partners in private sector have also worked on improving original 3D CARs hardware to satisfaction of user with LRDE. In fact, brand new processing unit has been done to make use of latest available technology.

I am aware of what Shri Prasun writes. Unfortunately, it is mostly wrong and nonsense. In last article he has called our Rajendra AESA which is a huge joke, and according to him, whole world is busy giving us technology, including Taiwan, which will make any DRDO person or user laugh at how ridiculous his words are.

best regards,

Anonymous said...

My question to Ravi: Why is not DRDO buying technology like Prasun says and using it quick

Ravi said...

My question to Ravi: Why is not DRDO buying technology like Prasun says and using it quick

Dear Freind,

First technology cannot be purchased and used just like that. This is common misconception which is read only in newsmagazines and defence magazines

It has to be developed with involvement and with user acceptance. Otherwise, you get only LRU which is of limited use and is not of good value for long term project

In DRDO, the plan is to only go for those item which is either too long to develop in India, or too expensive to develop from basic, or which can be leveraged into more development items.

What this means is that extensive involvement is done. You cannot just buy technology and use it because you dont understand it.

So the option is to codevelop and use joint research on some specific item and make rest in India, and then develop the rest more and replace with indian IP as requirements need the same.

User also has say at every level if it is user specific project and not a technology development project.

So this is why "Prasun BS" approach doesnt work. DRDO cannot just buy out technology and call its own. It is useless. You cannot even integrate such technology with own equipment because your own equipment will not at all work with bought out technology designed for other system

this is also why HAL MMR had problems. By time, airborne tests showed ground mapping mode was full of bugs it was not useful to even purchase OTS module for mapping from OEMs since OEM module will not work for MMR

earlier SAAB ERICCSON had offered help which was also refused for same reason because MMR work required too much time to use SAAB Software

So you see you cannot just buy and use unlike what this fellow Prasun believes

I hope this answers your question.

Best regards,

Ravi said...

Presently LRDE is also working on many new Radar for user which will make suitable impact when released. I hope you, my friends will be suitably happy with developments. Once this is done within coming 2 years, India will be 80 percent self reliant in radars. These are new generation, frequency agile, 3D Radars with electronic scanning. WLR has also gone through trials successfully and user is very satisfied with the same and will be standard radar in the role for the user.

Mr.TaxPayer said...

Ravi, since you seem like an inside guy, can you throw some light on how much of LRTR is indegenous? how much individual components do we source from Israel or US?

There is this doubt that it is GreenPine re-branded. Also the range of this radar mentioned on public domain is very confusing..

Mr.TaxPayer said...

Also this radar is considered AESA, while we seem to be struggling with that technology. If I am not wrong, many international firms extending invites for participation on AESA joint ventures means, India is lacking somewhere.

Actually how good is this radar? how many would we need for a BMD?

Ravi said...

Ravi, since you seem like an inside guy, can you throw some light on how much of LRTR is indegenous? how much individual components do we source from Israel or US?

Dear freind, its best we do not talk of LRTR and ABM in public space because it is strategic program. But do not worry, LRTR is for local manufacture. India do not source radar systems for local program from US, there is reality that ITAR issue is still a problem.

There is this doubt that it is GreenPine re-branded. Also the range of this radar mentioned on public domain is very confusing..

It is not GreenPine

DRDO worked with Israel to make own radar specific for ABM program.

The range is sufficient for long range gating and acquisition, and yes range specifics is not mentioned publically for LRTR or tom-tomed because it will give a clear idea of system growth capability

Also this radar is considered AESA, while we seem to be struggling with that technology. If I am not wrong, many international firms extending invites for participation on AESA joint ventures means, India is lacking somewhere.

friend, we are not struggling with AESA. Thanks to rajendra program and project AKASH we are now sufficiently aware of and capable with electronic scanning radars.
What we are to sufficiently grow in is airborne radar for fast moving platform like fighter jets. This is entirely qualitatively different field than system for long range surveillance based on stationary platform (AKASH, Program AD) and even air based surveillance system which are not on fast moving jets of speed like fighter aircraft
fighter jet radar are having stabilisation plus long range multi surveillance modes in compact package with anti clutter measures
This is area where some 8 OEMs are having experience in worldwide

This is where foreign OEM are offering cooperation and not just in AESA systems where we have indeed got sufficient growth capability and experience

Actually how good is this radar? how many would we need for a BMD?

LRTR is worldclass system, and one is required for every deployment which can have different battery attached depending on threat

HALite said...

Fantastic replies Ravi! DRDO needs a guy like you to project a proper picture.

Anonymous said...

There are no totally indigenious tech today. Look at China, they are masters in reverse engineering & thats why they are able to put advanced military tech in use & in greater numbers than India. We have tried to reinvet the wheel for too long & have lost precious time. It is time to wake up & make use to collaborations & gain expertise to make cheaper alternatives.

Indian... said...

Look guys,Stop fooling urself by hearing the words of such damn reporters who kinda work for Uncles and babus.

and i appreciate Shiv to consider collective measures while reposting the same in his own blog.

U have to look for the credibility in the report and the reporter.Almost 80% of the defense entusiasits know how gud is this gupta...

Just like ajay shukla works for the rise of Arjun these people work in bashing DRDO.

Just want to mention one thing here.

There are reporters who rushes to publish the faults and failures of DRDO when they failed in achieving something on time and with confined budget.Why dont the same people hurry up to report abt the sucesses?

consider each and every product so far developed by DRDO.

Tejas,which actual budget including everything is near $2 billion which ofcourse will be a 4.5 gen after 2nd block comes in.
Is there any country in this world who can manage to develop a 4.5 gen fighter with freaken 2 billion dollars?no to forget the no first hand experience before.And we are not an experts in building fighters,not even accessories.

And they gave us the world class SAM system Akash and again the same low budget but a modern one.

And ABM system which scored 2 sucessive hits in their first 2 maiden testes.and i dont think the budget will be atleast 10% of the same class ones world wide.

Ajrun,Its a contemporary MBT which DRDO has given to IA.But those fellows failed to utilize it.and i am now sure that IA in a couple of months will change their decision after visualizing the fate of T-series tanks in Georgian war.

Radar and subsystem,we almost achieved self sufficiency in this field despite of sanctions for the world powers.

If i keep on saying like this,the list continues .

What i understood is most of these people are getting the uncle funds and ruskie funds to exaggerate theirs while bashing the local mades.

We wouldn't mind if u people reports are often exaggerated ,but what we like is dont bash and try hard finding faults on Indian Side.

Jai Hind.

Shiv Aroor said...

Ravi: thanks for taking the pains to give us your views here. They are valuable, and highly appreciated by all as you can see. Hope to see more of you! The reason I posted Prasun's piece was because I was sure some healthy arguments and debate of this sort would follow, and everyone would be that much more or less wiser about the programmes in question. Therefore, very grateful to you for your contributions -- and please do keep them coming!

Anonymous said...

ANYONE who believes Prasin Chor Sengupta has his head up his wazoo !!!

that man has a terrible reputation, he is a marked plagarist and knows zilch about defence.

I remember a report of his about "signal" radar, while the actual thing is signaal which is a brand name.
Moron didn't even know that !!

He frequently copy pastes specs from western/israeli brochures on DRDO programmes to make it look like he is revealing a new project.

And of course, he sees an israeli hand in EACH AND EVERY DRDO project !!



Pritam said...

Dont listen to the Sengupta guy, he never be a part of any Indian R&D programme and now talking about DRDO who are working for India, they are not the best in the world but atleast they are trying and working for their motherland...

but what is he doing??!!!!!

Most of the time i read his articles from FORCE are full of wrong informations and copycats....

Pritam said...

RAVI thank you very much for your informations, specially about LRTR and airborne radars.

Now it is clear that LRTR is not the GP.

Is the same LRTR will be used for Phase-2 ABM projects like AD-01 and AD-02???

Mr.TaxPayer said...

Cant thank you enuff Ravi, keep visiting this place.

Anonymous said...

Mr Prasun Sengupta, with all due respect for his older work from a decade ago or so, appears to be increasingly adept at passing off his vivid imagination as fact. One has to appreciate his talent in concocting fantastic stories out of a few half truths.

What is equally disturbing is how he shamelessly copies articles word for word and then passes them off as his work. Most writers, in this age of "cut and paste', may at one time or another inadvertently copy phrases, but his plagiarism knows no bounds. He has copied several of my pieces and those of my colleagues word for word.

About the only useful thing to be learnt from his Rohini article is the connection to PIT and Radwar.

Anonymous said...

Ravi, really appreciate you clearing some of the misconceptions created by the media. It is unfortunate that Indian media doesn't hold itself to a higher standard, at least in terms of defense reporting. We need people from DRDO to speak up like this instead of continuously being on the receiving end of unsubstantiated treasonous bile from the media.

And I speak for all of us when I say that we appreciate the sacrifice you make for the advancement of the country. Thank you for not jumping onto the IT bandwagon and instead creating world class defense products while being paid a pittance.

Anonymous said...

Agree about the media holding itself to a higher standard (ie no easy DRDO bashing for the sake of DRDO bashing) as well as Prasuns plagiarism.

I am amazed by both. No countrys media attacks its defence R&D as much as the Indian media. Its almost like they dont care for indian defence and dont regard Indian security as worthwhile. Whats more they arent worried about being sued for wrong information and outright falsehoods.

Prasun is another class act. A google search reveals at least half a dozen reputed authors saying he has ripped them off. This guy is too much, how can he even do this and be brazen enough not to get caught? Too much man..

chandrabhan said...

Hi Shiv,
I have been visiting your and Ajai's blog for some time and am pleased to see the awareness you are generating.

I have couple of points to make.

It is so easy to blame the poor DRDO guys and laugh about their perceived incompetence at developing products without appreciating the hard work and heartburns they go through with poor budgets and poor salaries. We don't have any idea of the technology base we had refused to create due to that fabian socialist Bas---- Nehru. His megalomaniac daughter nurtured weapon acquisition as a way to get kickbacks as a policy and the result is this.

They are the biggest roadblock for the arms import lobbies in the IA, Political parties , Journos( who enjoy the hospitality of uncle , ruskies). I agree with most of my friends here, We must prosecute them for treason and send them to gallows.

Democracy does not mean that we shoot our mouth off only. It comes with a lot of responsibility. Taking pride in one's achievement and fixing accountability at all levels is a must. I am not saying this to protect DRDO but asking just to be fair to them. They could have been writing codes for some MNC sitting in US and making money. Let us face it, All of us are sitting on the side lines and have not much clue about technology.

What do you want to call original tech? Americans? Russians? British? They all stole from germany(Think V8,V2 and sp many other) after WWII and also from each other. They created a base, infrastructure and one success leads to another spinoff and rest is history.FBI never returned more than half of Tesla's work.

On the side , Let me tell you that I Liked your enthusiasm for Arjun tank. My batchmate is a tank commander and he loves it and so did I.

My friends at DRDO - Beg, Borrow, Steal but do it fast. In thsi world only the paranoid will survive. Don't listen to these half educated journos and wanna be

Shiv Aroor said...

chandrabhan: well said. i think a lot of folks need to move from the half-baked to the full.

Anonymous said...

GUYS GUYS, if we needed more PROOF that Prasun was BSing and that the above person RAVI was speaking FULL truth, we have the latest NEWS FROM DRDO

It ACTUALLY MATCHES everything RAVI was saying about a new antenna, new signal processor AND OTHER STUFF

WOW this place had the real deal much much before MAN

Anonymous said...

Man, this says it all about Prasuns credibility, LOL.

Ksquare said...

Hey shiv,

How Can u let that pirate and plagarist, and Brochure copier
post on ur site.??

ARNIE said...

DRDO is slowly becomeing aCOMPANY rather than a R& D Institute