Sunday, October 26, 2008

Special Army Instruction issued on October 11

The Group of Ministers (GoM) has until tomorrow to make its recommendations on the core demands of the armed forces on the 6th Pay Commission. In the meanwhile, here are two pages showing the Revised Pay Packages for officers from the Special Army Instruction (SAI) issued on October 11 by the Defence Ministry. As it stands, this SAI will be amended or replaced with a fresh SAI once the GoM makes its recommendations. Sorry for the poor photo quality (taken from my useless phone!).

Have already described the circumstances of this SAI a few posts ago. Click here.

68 comments :

Anonymous said...

Yawn!! what boring stories everyone has done from Bangalore. Doesn't look like Happy Diwali.

Shiv, you haven't carried any story from Bangalore?

Anonymous said...

Papers on Cabinet decisions disclosable’
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1686450

Dear Friend,
Can we have all Cabinet Papers leading to Decision of 6th CPC now?? Perticularly Notings of MoD.

Any Ex Serviceman can try this on RTI.

Thanks..

Anonymous said...

this is an old document

Anonymous said...

obviously it's old because it reflects the march pay orders. but this was issued on oct 11. that is why it is controversial.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous at 7.30PM
Why an Ex-Serviceman for RTI? Are Service personnel not Citizens of this country? Is RTI Not Applicable and Usable by them? Is it written in RTI rules or service rules that RTI cannot be used by Service personnel? Please Educate me
Another Anonymous

Indian said...

Dear Friends,
Indian Denece Forces Personnel are the only organization and with it's commited people ...lest affected with corruption virus till now.
The need the power and authority to clean up the affected system and people in this country.

But Corrupt politicians/Agents of other countries and connected Burocrats WILL NEVER EVER ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN...HENCE THIS KIND OF PLAY/TACTICS BEING EMPLOYED.

Thanks

Anonymous said...

happy diwali

Aditya said...

Today is the day.
Its now or never. Will the forces have a black diwali after all?

Anonymous said...

say goodbye to parity forever. if the govt does not take some action, today, it will never be done ever. goodbye parity. alvida forever.

Anonymous said...

CPOs CRY : Equal Job and Equal Pay

Main Job and Responsibilities of CPO:

Border Management (BSF,ITBP, SSB, Assam Rifles}
Internal Security (CRPF, CISF)
Disaster management (ALL)
Counter Hijacking Counter terrorist VIP Protection(NSG)
Coastal Management (Coast Guard)

Number of battalions: 737
Officers : 12000

Approximate strength : 10,0000

100 battalions yet to be raised.
Budget 2006 : 12,000 Crores


In spite of this huge mammoth manpower battalions and expenditure They are not able to do any thing worthwhile :

Most of the insurgencies fall on the Armed Forces.
A huge length of the Border is managed by The Armed Forces even during Peace. All difficulties for the Army and all ease for CPOs.
CPOs are incapable of Disaster management...their track record is well known.

Their capabilities of Aid to Civil authorities is questionable and Army has to but in every where.
They have no track record of Anti terrorist actions and anti Hijacking. That too is being managed with the help of Army.


Look who is doing whose job. Is it Army doing their Job or Are the CPOs during Armed Forces Job.

Which "Equal Job Equal Pay" are they asking for. It is in fact Armed Forces which must be paid out of their Internal security and Disaster management Budgets and a severe cut be imposed on their officers pays for their incapability and inefficiency ??

My Dear CPOs you are not doing Army Jobs.... Army is being forced to do your job when you are being heftily paid.


You can only beat up the innocent and unarmed Citizenry and shall continue like that unless there is parallel induction of Armed forces in CPO. That is the only hope.

Anonymous said...

Its black Diwali guys

Tanmay said...

hi prasun
ca you please give out some info about lca pv-4 production
when are pv-5 and lsp-3 tested
arjun tank mark-II development and production and also its specifications

thank you
happy diwali

Anonymous said...

shiv your channel is now reporting that the PM might make the announcement at the combined commanders conference on november 1. typical of the upa leaders to snatch the credit from their underlings like pranab mukherjee and antony etc.

Anonymous said...

Oh shit ! yeh kya ho gaya...kaise, apne aap

Anonymous said...

The announcement to be made on Nov 1 by PM is like this:

-LtCols to come in PB-4 after 16 years.

-Chiefs have given up and at the end said off the record that forget the parity and status and give us the money

-PBORs will be given the said pension.

Shiv, this is authentic info through reliable sources.

Shiv Aroor said...

anon@4.05 & 7.45: that's right. our sources tell us the same thing. and that's what we've been reporting on our channel through the day once it was clear the pranab mukherjee panel wasn't about to make any noises today. well, here's hoping for the best.

Aditya said...

What is this nonsense? And Lt Gens in HAG+? This is going to cause an uproar! The armed forces must not cave in for this rubbish! I am really hoping that this is not the crap which will be announced!

Anonymous said...

And bloody hell, what the hell about equalising rank pays?

Anonymous said...

These chiefs had a chance to make a stand and be remembered as being amongst the greatest chiefs we had. Instead theyve sold their souls. God save India. God bless our country!

Anonymous said...

Shiv at 8.11 pm, when has your channel said the above things. All it has been reporting is that the final announcement will be made on Nov 1 by PM in combined cdrs conf. Thats all.

Anonymous said...

Dear Shiv,

What you also need to bring out to your readers is that the GP of a Lt Col of 16 years in PB4 will be 8700, Col will get GP 8800 and Brig GP of 8900. Further, the Govt also agrees that equality will not probably be based on Pay received but will be published separately based on appointment held by an individual of a service whilst discharging a particular function.......

Shiv Aroor said...

anon@9:09: quite right. we haven't reported what the findings are likely to be. so like i said, let's hope for the best!

Anonymous said...

The above should not be unacceptable to the Army. Why in 16 years?? This is the application of the absurd reasons of the IAS that they enter four to five years late in the service?? Does GoI accept this logic?

IAS officers get two increments in 13 years as also PB-4.It means an IAS officer will be rewarded with Six to seven years seniority straight away Over Lt Col. (one and half years of trg of IMA cadet which is not counted as service, two years as additional increment which he gets at 13 yers, and three years over length of service). This is rediculios. One yers advantage as training period being counted as service, and advante of two addittion incements at 13 years of serce as it is good enough if their absurd logic is accepted by bosses.

Nothing below 14 years (if not 13 years) be accepated by the services.

The Armed Forces all attempts of last ten years to make Service a little attractive has been buried by the Babus and Politicians. Their own seniority and status is bigger than Country and improving Armed Forces Conditions.

AVS-1, as approved by the Cabinet making an officers Lt Col in 13 years stands scuttled and nullified. What is the use accepting such a thing?? If govt can not pay return MSP of officers and link All Armed Forces Officers to the pay progression of IAS at par with Class A services. After all it is govt stand that Armed Forces should be paid al least at Par with other Govt services. Why should they go back on this premise based on which they Kept Armed Forces on Peon's Pay. Keep us there only. What ever is good for Class A services is good for us.

It also amounts to effective elimination of utility of Colonel as a rank.It means they have created conditions in Armed Forces that they eliminated in CPOs. (recommendations on abolition of Addl DIG}. But with a grade pay.

It can only work out if offrs are considered for Cols before 16 years of service. Those selected be give Cols rank and grade at 16 yerars of service and those who are not selcted Lt Col Grade and pay at 16 years of service. Brigs on Completion of 20 years of service. Those who get selected should be given Brigs grades on NFSG basis and those who do not get selected granted colonel's grades on non functional basis. Selected brigs to put on ranks when placed for comd and afterwards.

That is one of the ways to sort out the buggers muddle the new situation Will create. The whole problem is that "functional basis" of well geared system will be disturbed. If there is no option then the Goverment must agree to the above service limits and scheme.

Lt gen issue is the most vital. It is "izzat" and status of our seniors from which derive our pride. Not accepting Lt Gen demand is virtual degradation of the services. It is not the question of LT Gen but of the services as such. Why should services be degraded Vi-a-Vis police. That should not be accepted by The Forces at any cost.

Not at any cost. Let those Lt Gen take over who are ready to serve under police at highest "operational Levels". This is another introduction of "Lt Gens Kouls" through Police doors now. Now DGPs in J&K, Assam and other sates will be passing orders to Army as the Political leadership feels incable of doing so. I request Three Chiefs not to allow this Police Sabotage at all.

Jai Hind.

Anonymous said...

The First kine should be read above as "The above should not be unacceptable to the Army."

"The above should not be unacceptable to the Army."

Anonymous said...

It clearly demonstate the "fauzies" have No Negitioanl skills..

I suggest they read "Oxford University" paper of Negotions. Goggle it ..one will get it..or go to e -snips and find it there under Mangement / Industrial Relations. or leave e-mail adress and I shall forward..

Anonymous said...

"the Govt also agrees that equality will not probably be based on Pay received but will be published separately based on appointment held by an individual of a service whilst discharging a particular function......."

Narrow approach...

Fauzies do not see the entire perspcive. What you do within organization is your baby on functional basis ..for Army Act and Laws will recognizes only substantive grades and not Army Orders ranks and appointments etc. Who will handle Gref , BRO and MES Then inter se "izzat and seniority " will be ditermined by What is substantive.. and when are you getting it.

If fauzies are forced the above down their throat then what is recommended above and below should be part of commitment:

Lt Col - 14 years on length of service...
Col..16 years on Selection...
Col ..20 years on length of service...
Brig... 20 years on selection..
Brigs 26 years on length of service (NFSG)
Maj Gen..24 years on selection
Maj Gen...one year before retirement with minimum 30 years of service.

Let Maj Gen be the longest service General so that he learns something
at policy , command, direction and higher defense management levels with some stability in appointment and various exposures before he is Lt gen.

All IAS go on pension at Secretary level, All Class A service minimum at Addl secy level, all IPS at Addl secy levels, all other Lalu Panju in Class Aservices in in the Library at minimum JS level...

What is wrong with the service to ensure that...?? If a civilain can be draaged there why not a Fauzi offrs who deserves it better..

If Lt Col in PB-4 at 16 yeras is the bait bite it only if it is broght down to 14 yers and all bove conditions met, otherwise leave it at that..

The above will be acceptable to IAS as he becomes JS at 16 years so still remains six years senior to to poor selected Maj Gen of Services ...

If you have to accept slavery then accept it with grace and not lying down and offering evry thing...

Revolt or negotiate...and if one chooses to negotiate which is recommended, then be alive for tomorrow rather than loosing every thing today..If you loss every thing today, it is better to perish...then you have nothing to loose..

Jai Hind..

Anonymous said...

happy deepavali

Anonymous said...

Ages for retirement: Other issues

Foe selection grades: Present ages.
For all length of service based:

Brig : 52 years
Maj Gens : 54 years

That will ensure continues upward move, young profile and also opportunities to all. Max satisfaction level.

Similar promotion schemes are required to be thought for PBOR who must retire at the pension or rank of Nb Sub and equivalant.

Now, this scheme will work out fine if SSC officers as also other Volunteers at completion of 12 years service are transferred to or inducted to CPOs/ PMF.

Similarly, The PBOR on completion of seven years service be inducted to CPO and PMF.

What will be left with Army as permanent structure is the steel frame of officers and NCOs / JCOs as the lowest population will be on cycle of constant change. All units therfore will be vertaully operatioanl or training units. That may be a bit difficult for many units of IAF and IN stall they can also participate with more than half the strenth with coast gurd being there.

Therefore, achieving the above Kind or faster progression will be easy and possible for offrs and NCO ? JCOs.

Only problem is that all Army units will function as RR Bns..but those are functioning and doing well.

In the Long run Service offrs will also find avenues in CPO at higher ranks on half streth deputation and may be vice vers. CPOs and PMF must be taken out of the Previes of IPS except for may be very high level.

Rejecting this parallel induction is short-sightedness of the Services.

It is an idea long ago propagated by Gen ML Chibbier and many other Gens. It is not an IAS/ IPS idea. It must be accepted whole heartedly. It is for the betterment of the overall internal and external strategic situation.

It is the only answer for 100 infantry divisions vaialability...I think all know what I mean.. and what is menat by that..may be 20 Core Army infantry divisins and 100 Auxelaries divisions capabilities... Ha..I have orgasm...

That will also provide an opportunity for and more funds for Army to focus on critical areas...may be five arty divisions..

I am one of You... I am not Arty..but Think for the Country...


That is the only way to really relieve the tired Indian Army of internal security...
That is the only way to deal with Naxalism..Insugencies...Disater Mangement..

It is the only win-win situation for MOd , MHA, The satblishment, the stategicians and India..


I am surprised IAS advocating it...Has I been the chief I would have just grabbed it at any cost...

Such vast advantes... for Fauzies...when Fauzi population will trebble...you all cry people do not understand Fauz...then three times todays population will understand Fauz...

Cahnakya Niti...dear Chiefs...Chanakya Niti...
You must make it Complusory and basic book for study by all services offrs... as taught in DSSC Quatta....Pakistan...


All Regards
jai Hind...

Anonymous said...

Hello

Fauzi bhais...
Do nOt get disheartend..
The is some called "Grapevine". Grape vine is very cumbersome and tedious. It is difficult to find its roots and end. But it exists.

It governing cicles "Grapevine" is sort of inserted news on one of the likely course to be adopted. It is inserted in the target population basically to find out the reactions on the inserted news.

The above leak is also a grape vine. To know what you all have to say and what is the acceptability of PB-4 in 16 years...


If you feel it is incorrect you all got to say so..Cry and Cry...

Then it will come to 15 years ...you got to cy more..
May be then it settles for 14 years..

So cry and cry hoarse...

This is the crucial negotiation time...raise flags...

All the best...

Anonymous said...

Sorry ...

I had to say the above as you all are not exposed to the Willy tactics, treachery and mind boggling negations of Trade Unions which people like Antony or Prank Da and more than that, IAS lobby is adept in...

I am retired..

You will be easily fooled and taken for a ride..
If you all have entered in the accused "Industrial Actions", then let it be so...but my Concern is taht you are not experienced in that..

Do not hurry..they are failing in their arguments, promises, date lines not you..some times these are deliberately done to frustate the other side specailly leadership which is answerable..

Deepawali...nothing..so what is the value of the promise of RM...nothing... That is their loss not yours..do not come under pressure of your own folks..tell them and keep them informed..Do not get cowed down by previous signals..It is your duty to inform your men...Tel them Govt has not kept the promise of promised dead line ..so wait...

then they Commanders Confrence...you say sorry, that is not adequate and not accapatable...
Do not accept it..Not at all..they will be forcing things through highest authority...expalin and refuse politely...

Let it come to acceptable levels and desires... Once you all chiefs have entered into Conflict then remain there or why did you entered that arena...do not get cowed down by press, media, threats and intimidations..Guptas..NDTV ..BSF or likes ...IAS has multiple instruments...

Be flexible as also very firm at the desired levels..since you have entered alleged "Industrial Acton's" so be it. Then Negotiate at the best terms rather than giving in and loosing the value of your resistance. ny thing sort of desired level would be letting down your organizations which has reposed so much faith on you. It would amount to to lossing the battle and you will be thoroughly discedited. At least save your honour.

Till your Organization is with you, and you are doing things for the Organisation...you are supreme. It is better to earn a good name as a sacked chief rather then going down in history as discredited bought leaders. At your satge these things matter rather than a few years more Comfort.

That would be in the best interest of the Country and the organisation. That is what Bible or Geeta says...

I wish your names and Contributions to be Supreme..


this kind of opportunities are provided to leaders only by the history. Some grab it if they are leaders others just squander it due to lack of Leadership traits..

Example: A nondescript ordinary and rogue leader like George Fernandez rose because of Railway Strike of 1972-73..

Otherwise, what was he???

History has given you all an oppurtunity to set things right and in order...

Aditya said...

Jang main ek waardat main agar peechhe hatna pada, to iska yeh matlab nahi hai ki jang haath se nikal chuki hai....

Desh ke sipahi aise hi nahi farz se hattain. Aap log faulaad se bane hain. Dushman ki goliyon se nahin chooktte- To phir inh naukar-shahon ke kalam se kyon darr rahe hain?

Aap apne haq ka Jang ladiye. Poora mulk aapke saath hai. Aapka khoon hamaara khoon hai.

Iss desh ki seva main jo aap ek boond khoon dete hain, uske jawaab main ham hazaaron boond khoon baha denge.

Ham aapke saath hain.

Jai Hind!

Ek nagarik (Civilian Citizen).


Translation

If one has to retreat in war, it does not mean the war is lost.

Our nations soldiers must not admit defeat soon! You have just begun to fight! You are men of steel. You dont flinch from the enemy bullet- why should you run from the bureaucrats pen?

Fight for your rights! The nation is with her armed forces! Your blood is our blood, and for every drop spilled, we will be ready to give a thousand more!

We are with you! Fight on!

A civilian citizen of the great and sovereign Republic of India.

The fight has just begun!

Jai Hind!

Anonymous said...

happy deepawali

Anonymous said...

Happy Deepawali to All

Fauz had demanded minimum at the begning only. Shey should have statrted at the maximum so that desirable middle position is reached. How can they start at the last position and then fight the haggling Babu.

Look at the Equation at Independecne.
"First Class Civilain of 28 years Standing"

Look at the equation now:
"JS and Maj Gen having carried the emlblems of India on his shoulders like a slavae for 34 years"

What a Joke ? In this Country Democracy has been enslaved by Bureacracy.

Anonymous said...

happy dipawali,

Antony Ji,

"Kya Huwa Terra Vada"
Wo qasam Wo Irrada ???

Anonymous said...

Pl tell Antony saar "yenda saare, ningazh paranjadu onnu, vere yenda aayi?"

Anonymous said...

Dear Shiv,
What happenned to your promise of closely covering this issue? Why cant your channel run a story again on how the time lines are not being met and how things are being delayed. May be it will put some pressure on other channels also to highlight the issues of armed forces and in turn force the govt to get its act fast.

Anonymous said...

@Ano above
You Said:

"These chiefs had a chance to make a stand and be remembered as being amongst the greatest chiefs we had. Instead theyve sold their souls. God save India. God bless our country!"

Premature to say that:

The above is a "grapevine" as correctly pointed out by another Ano.

Only one card has been thrown on the table...

The Card is status quo of 5th CPC where IAS thrust 7 years and 17 years equations between DS / Maj and Dir / Lt Cols...

This CPO business is but a ruse and diversion...

HAG plus for DGP was a political battle won by IPS with the help of ever needy State CMs who need their Police bosses for most of the things in the states...IAS might have agreed as it does not effect their secy holds in Ministries where IPS was demanding their share.. so both have got their booties.

Lt Gen of Armed Forces stands degraded. Their being put into HAG+ effects no one but only the MoD. That is why haggling and so called negotiation.

But degradation of Lt Gens effects the Armed Forces all over India. That is a serious issue and can not be left at that for the pleasures of Babus in MOD. Lt Gens have to function through out India. They are apex of the three organization and can not be degraded. That is simply Unacceptable.

Either all demands be met or no one...Unfortunately that is the first and last position...

Only Lt Col in PB-4 in 13 or 14 years is negotiable...that is the only small haggling window to cater for IAS paranoi of seniroity of Directors. But that should be done at the cost of upgrading Majors.

Nothing else can be done. Let all all lt gens resign rather than accept uncalled for and disfunctional subordination of Bureacracy. They as it is have reached appx. By remaing in there, they will be sliding down the appex.. one to two years lass of office does not matter for the larger goal.

Anonymous said...

Happy Diwali,
Mast Raho, Diwali To Nikal Gayi, Lagta Hai Yeh Kuchh Nahin Denge. Ullu Bana Diya Lagta Hai

Anonymous said...

Bhulega dil jis dein tujhe,

woh din zindagi ka aakhri din hoga

kya hua tera vaada

Aditya said...

What, the army will give up because they didnt "Give" them their rights?

Dont give in. If the announcement, when it comes, is not satisfactory, then say so!

Anonymous said...

@SHIV...

ITS CLEAR FROM EVERY DOCUMENT AND RECORD THAT ARMED FORCES HAVE NOT BEING GIVEN JUSTICE THEN Y R U NOT CALLING A SPADE A SPADE...

GIVE IT A COVER..Y DONT U ORGANISE A DEBATE ON IT ...AND U MUST INVITE MAJ NAVDEEP IN THE DEBATE...

Anonymous said...

Silence before the storm...

In Conc As..???
Are all Cdrs ready with one liners to be given to the PM during Army Commanders Confrence...??

Must be ready...It appers you all will have to do that...

chandy said...

there have been at least two raja jaichands and mir kasims in the forces. i do not want to name them because it will not be appropriate as one of them is no more.it is not difficult to identify them for anyone.

i hope sincerely that no one from now on will join this elite group as a lot is at stake (izzat and pride of the forces).

Anonymous said...

Hurray!!! All demands are met except HAG+, which is being considered by PM. This is final and dont worry about IAS lobby, they cant do much now.

Anonymous said...

Chandy, to whom are you referring?

Anonymous said...

All in Conc As.
Keep your wpns clean and powder dry.
It'll take another 15 days or so.
Wait for a delayed Diwali!

Anonymous said...

v criticise russia over price issues but look at this article

US sale of f16 to morocco and

Moroccan authorities were swayed by a cut-rate offer made by the United States but in the end price morocco is paying is broadly comparable to that offered by France for the Rafale.

France made two offers, one for 18 Rafales for 1.8 billion euros ($2.6 billion), and one for 2.2 billion euros ($3.2 billion) for 24 aircraft. The French offers included a full weapons suite (MICA air-to-air missiles and AASM laser-guided bombs) as well as an extensive ground environment, that Morocco will have to buy separately for the F-16s

Rafale is a significantly better plane, offering Morocco a level of quality overmatch that the F-16C/Ds cannot promise against neighboring Algeria’s MiG-29s and SU-30s

Equivalent weapons like the AIM-120 AMRAAM and Paveway II/III kits were not included, but they are unlikely to add more than $200 million to the price of 24 aircraft
------------------------------------------------
similar cheaper prices US offering us for f16,18
but US fighters r not that cheap similar scenerio will happen with us if v BUY US aircraft
for example

US offering us F18E/F for 56million
then y did they sold f18e/f to australia for 116million per plane plus support cost extra

UAE bought f 16blk60 for 80million a piece don't know for how much they r offering us

Anonymous said...

If any of the posters here are military officers, I must say I am disappointed.

If you let yourselves be pushed around, you will be. If you dont, you wont.

If you give up because of some rumor circulating here and there, then I am not very confident in your ability to protect this country.

Everything is a whine. "Why isnt the IAS giving us our due"?

If you arrogate the IAS to the level that they can give you your due, then youve already become their servants.

India used to have military officers with B@lls! People like FM Manekshaw, General Thakur Nathu Singh (Who, as a colonel told Nehru to stuff it, and that he had more experience to lead the army than Nehru did to lead the nation, when Nehru suggested retaining british officers). People like General Thorat, and General Maharaj Singhji.

To look at the comments and weeping and waiting for relief provided by the IAS here, it looks as though the entire military leadership needs to grow a new pair!

Articulate your needs! Be honest! And remember, it is your duty to tell the truth, not to please your boss!

Anonymous said...

Tell the truth well 80 % of us do that but then who is prepared to face it.Go through AHQ notings and you will find `dissent written all over but the heriarchy up the chain has to wake up to reality.If they do then half the problems end there.When we speak of generals of yesteryears people listened to them because of their status in the society and because of wars - today neither do we have a standing in society nor a war and if we speak up for it people say don't beg.

Anonymous said...

Boss, people who say dont beg are trying to run you down! Is it necessary to imagine that demanding what is correct is begging? This is the height of foolishness. Just because someone paid off a few lifafa journos to write what they say doesnt mean that night becomes day and light becomes dark and right becomes wrong?

The armed forces have FINALLY made a stand. This is about 50 years overdue. And people listened to people like Thakur Nathu Singh because he was an old school BASTARD who would make life hell for anyone who didnt.

Whats to stop you chaps from doing the same? After all, if things get bad enough you will resign anyway. So why keep your mouths shut to please your boss.

Tell the truth! Thats the reason officers in the old army were respected. Not because "Society respected them" or "There were wars" etc.

Its because they werent toadies. They were men! They were men, which is what brought them respect. Respect isnt free. Its accorded to people with character.

Anonymous said...

Delayed Diwali

I belong to a "Feudal Village" so to say "feudal" could be rich or poor and I belong to the later Category. People were traditionally in the Army.

In one of the years of fierce feudal wars between the two neighboring small states, the highest ranking military man was fighting a war and Way from the village during Deepawali. villagers being worried about his safety of the commander, the Deepawali was not celebrated. When he returned safely after 21 days , people celebrated with gust and Zeal.

In that Village, even today Deepawali is celebrated on the
main day and 21 days after it.


Pasand Apani Apani Khayal Apna Apna

Anonymous said...

Why was Manekshaws status in society high? Or, for that matter, any other military officers status?

Did people listen to him because he had status, or did he have status because he had the ability to make people listen to him?

His status didnt come magically. He had the guts to stand up, even to the PM. I dont think todays twopenny halfpenny generals can stand up even to a joint secretary, by the sort of despondency and crying im seeing here. Where is your josh? Does it only come when ordering subordinates to do things?

Where have your guts gone? Why cant you take a principled stand?

Shouldnt you stop giving a damn about your 'kursis' and say what has to be said, and damn the consequences?

If one is fired, so be it. Take the good with the bad. But always tell the truth! And if these pay commission reccomendations are not good enough, then be so good as to say so to the government.

And if they dont listen once, tell them again. And Again. And again. Till they will listen.

Jai Hind. Jai Jawan.

Anonymous said...

53rd comment!!

Anonymous said...

well said about present day generals except a few of diff genr . most loose the guts to standup because they are made to crawl to get promoted at every stage( real tigers get superceded as lt cols/cols) . most beyond cols have made it by manipulating postings and ACRs and doing 'ji hazuri' of MOD officials to get favourable redressal. now having crawled better part of life , you suddenly can't expect such offrs to standup to anything ?

Anonymous said...

Well of course!

The army seems to have become full of senior officers who have found it convenient to tell their juniors to face the bullet, but not to tell the bureaucracy to bugger off from affairs which are not connected to them.

It is these blowhards who are the forefront of ruining the service. And the fact that such rubbish has floated to the top speaks volumes about the level of interference from unauthorised quarters which has creeped in.

The army, as the largest service has been the prime target of the bureaucratic offensive. Tell me. How many decent chiefs has the Indian Army had?

Let me name a long list of duds:

1. JJ Singh- A failure extraordinaire. Did nothing but play golf and contest Gymkhana club elections. Got where he was by tremendous manipulations. Main contribution, was to order bizarre cosmetic changes to army uniform, and tell people not to photograph dead terrorists. Then, he buzzed off to Arunachal (of all places) to become governor. Sold out the army to become governor of a third rate state, a post which even minor politicians and retired bureaucrats are embarassed to accept.

2. NC Vij: Already suspect when he gave briefings to unauthorised politicians at G Fernandes insistance, as DGMO. A pliant, and laughable figure, unfit to wear the chiefs stars. Ended up chief of the dud National Disaster Management Authority. For this 3rd rate sinecure, he sold off the army to the bureaucracy.

3. S. Roychoudhury. Did nothing, and ended up a Trinamul supported MP in Rajya Sabha. A complete joke.

4.SF Rodrigues: Now Chandigarh administrator. Didnt do much in his time.

5. KVK Rao: Sellout. All to become governor of Kashmir.

6. Raina: Became chief using his Kashmiri Pandit connections. Useless.

7. GG Bewoor: Became chief as the bureaucrats choice. If he hadnt been granted extension in tenure, PS Bhagat, Victoria Cross would have become chief. And unlike Bewoor, he was not a joker who could be messed about with.

8. PN Thapar: Presided over the collapse of the Indian Army in 1962. Didnt have the cojones to stand up to even the bloody joint secretary who sent him a note ordering him to attack chinese positions when his men were in no position to do so. BM Kaul walked all over him.

So. A long line of Jokers. Particularly of late. When will the pack produce a King?

When will the army leadership stop caring about itself, and start caring about its men?

Has anyone here ever seen the inside of an army hospital? Has anyone here seen how the nurses and doctors treat the ordinary soldier who comes to them for succour?

Have any of you seen the way some of todays ASC and AOC officers behave, stealing money like petty small time thieves? Why arent they taken to task?

Have any of you seen how even a civilian MES engineer now has the guts to talk back to an army officer, while providing them with the worst service possible?

Rubbish. These officers cannot even put their own house in order. And they dare to wear this hallowed uniform, worn by men a thousand times better than they?

Blowhards and idiots. If they dont come through now, dont give in. Its not because your demands are not just. Its because your representatives are weaklings, too tired and frail and afraid to do what is right.

Anonymous said...

Agreed... that we very very stronglyand urgently need to put our houses in order... but when the house is on fire, it is no great service to organisation to raise the issue...

For that we do not need to denegrade our predecessors, Genrals and chiefs.. so I presumme you have to an interested outsider posing as reformer..

What can chiefs do if their field commanders were to stead fast and be strong... and vice versa...I have seen manyfine generals like Surender Sing licking IAS balls in frustration but he could not do any thing to Gen Chaudhary...

Pathania was not allowed to rise because he was son of Gen Pathania of 62 fame..

Sinha was denaied the coveted Post being the most hated and dangerious anti IAS general...

Even favorites like Tich Sharma of the fvaoured political family was very badly howled down by Foreign service and IAS bureaucracy when he tried to show a glimpse of what actually happened around Tawang...earlier and later..

I have seen Salman Haider being asked by a General to just shut up...but that does not prove any thing...

Foreign Services and IAS officers have been at it day and day out..When it comes to turf wars IPS is dabgerious and worst lots.

what ever one may talk of Sunderjee, he wanted to conduct an operational maneuver in Sri Lanka... (Ha Ha Ha) IPS controlled intelligence agencies were very busy letting down Indian Army there as they needed to run their shpos. On the other hand the power hungery Dixit was playing a Czar and Super General. a simple dedicated soul but famous and down to earth Gen Sir Deshpandey, who had forces all Brigs and gens to walk on the roads and fly: who would grab collars of a JCO and tell him he better face bullets and lead men rather than fart around, was treacherously deceived and sacked by IAS lobby as he wanted better condions for soldiers..

However, when ever Armed Forces have shown two fingers to the Babus...they have not been able to do any thing except hire goons like Datta of front line and Sekhar Gupta...etc ..etc..

When Jyoti Basu's rich industrialist comprodor Capitilist son and his Hongcong based company wanted an old ship wreck to be brought opposite HQ Eastcom and be placed in Hugly there to be run as a Hotel (a CIA mov), the Army said No..

The General (GOC-in-C) was called "pigheaded" by nothing less the Pioneer editor Mitra and Calcutta publications. Wilson John of Pioneer was a bought goon of Fernades who was quated by him in the Parlaimant..

Army survives and kicking without Fernades and Wilson johnn..Not wilson... nor Fernadese..

Those who stood firm, not like tree but perennial grass did a service for the Country and organisation...

Yes, we need great reforms but not by abusing our generals... That is why I repaeat that you are not a Fauzi but wilson John type...

So Calm down...that is after effect of two drinks more...may be..

Thousand and thousand of goodness and resolute military leadership of people due to which we survive...
It however necessarily and never meant confrontation, defiance and arrogance. Military leader belongs to the nation and neither above it not avove the people...Only IAS can think and act such..

Not a Good thinking General..
Good night...

Anonymous said...

http://gconnect.in/gc/6cpc-matters/pay-panel-three-member-committee-yet-to-decide-lt-colonel-pay.html

Lt Col Chandraj Singh Sirohi(retd.) said...

The report of Indian Express in GConnect has status of last Wednesday.Lot of water has flown after that.Hence, take this obsolete post as light reading.

Anonymous said...

Very correct, sir. Plus, put together the facts. All major media outlets have been printing negative stories about the armed forces for the past one month. Ive done a count. Times of India, in the past 30 days: 37 negative stories about the armed forces. This, when usually times of India doesnt even carry a report when an officer is KIA.

Anything published in the mainstream media concering the armed forces and this issue must be taken with a large sack of salt.

Anonymous said...

The report is dated 30th Oct, Viz today. How is it dated last wednesday?

Anonymous said...

Guys, here is an old post from the BoB site. The angst and the helplessness is something we all feel. But, like he concludes, we all must maintain our balance.

"Over the last few days, we have felt far more helpless than, say, while leading a rifle company in 400 sq kms of jungle outnumbered two to one. Or many similar tricky situations that all of us go through. It is debilitating that our own people (I mean the civilian bureaucracy and political leaders) are hell-bent to raze (sic) the pride of armed forces officers! Are they afraid of us? Or, are they merely ignorant? They are certainly ill advised. Do they not know that at the end of the day soldiers/sailors/ airmen willingly risk their necks because they are led to do so – and the leader leads because he thinks 'no end of himself’ and his fear of losing that respect is greater than the fear of breaking his neck. I think (and hope) it is ignorance that is prompting the political leadership to cave in to the bureaucracy. It is my fervent hope and prayer that the Chiefs do not follow suit.
I must admit that I have had nightmares, wherein I have done unspeakable and un-soldierly things to imagined enemies (bureaucrats). I hope am not the only ‘nutcase’. But, that merely exacerbates the negative feelings.
I suppose we just need to have rock solid faith in the Chiefs’ integrity and sagacity."

Anonymous said...

I believe in the service chiefs. Theyve out up a fight so far. Theyve got their heads screwed on right!

Anonymous said...

Dear All,

This is regarding The Mjors grade Pay.

While, for his new pay fixation / ditermination, his pay and rank pay is rightly being taken into account, the same is not being done for ditermining his grade pay.

Major was in his prerevised pay scale of 11600 - 325 -14850. This was basic pay. With rank pay being 1200 and the rank pay being part of basic pay, means actually this scale was 12800 -325 -16500.

That is the prerevised pay scale of S-21. Major was actaully in S-21for all pracle purposes. All Prerevise S-21 have been given a grade of 7600 as per the Gazette and CCS rules.

Why Major is in Grade 6600?? Prerevised S-21 was 12000 - 375 - 16500. Even if one applies the end of the Scale logic, Maj's scale was within S-21.

Why this discrimination and downgradation of Maj at all??

Well it is a case fit for intervantion of the Courts if MoD does not agree. Service HQ or MoD have no right to "Descrimination" on the principles for fixation of the Grade Pay, perticlarly when Grade Pay has now been ruled to the diterminant of Status.

MoD is in deep trouble.... I must say...It pays grade pay of 7600 to earstwhile S-21 in MoD and grade pay 6600 to eastwhile Major. What a justice..Is that acceptable to MoD..???

Anonymous said...

That is precisely the reaosn why MoD have chnaged or altered the definition of the "Rank Pay" in the Current SAI..

Samajhe Fauzi....

I think you will have to go to the Courts to set it right....It effects individuals and his status...It is outright "Discrimination.."

It appears the sole job of MoD is to let you all down every where and at each and every step...

Anonymous said...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mukherjee_committee_yet_to_decide_on_pay_grievances_of_forces/articleshow/3659493.cms?TOI_latestnews

NEW DELHI: The Pranab Mukherjee committee on armed forces' pay grievances has

failed to come out with a decision yet, despite the Defence
Ministry's assurance that it
would do so by the end of this month.

Defence Minister A K Antony, who is a member of the ministerial committee, remained non-committal on when the high-level committee would come out with its decision on the four "core issues" over the Sixth Pay Commission.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had set up the committee, with Finance Minister P Chidambaram as the third member, on September 25 to consider the "discriminatory" provisions in the wake of armed forces' reluctance to implement a Cabinet decision on the pay commission report.

Though no official time limit for the committee had been set, Defence Ministry, while announcing the PM's decision, had informed that the decision on the "disparities" would be announced by October end.

"Discussions are (still) going on," Antony told reporters here after the Navy Commanders Conference to a query if the three-member ministerial committee's decision would come out today.

The tri-services, on the other hand, said it had no information on when the committee's decision would be known, as it was not in the loop on the minister's discussion on their grievances.

When the same question was put to Navy chief, Admiral Suresh Mehta, who is also the Chairman of the Chiefs of the Staff Committee, he said there could be no deadline for any discussion.

Aditya said...

WHAT THE HELL!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Caution for "High and Mighty"..Civil Sevice Numero Ones :

"... In India particularly, self-righteousness is the bane of Civil Services or public administrators. It’s also the function of a kind of power that you begin to accumulate. Some bureaucrates have unreasonable power over people in their ‘constituencies’, they have adulation, gratitude, it can turn their heads. They begin to behave like mainstream politicians. Somebody like you runs a serious risk of thinking that you are more important than I actually you are — because people petition you all the time, with serious issues that they want you to intervene in… And of course an intervention does have some momentary effect, you begin to think that it is in your power to do something. Whereas actually is it or is it not? It’s a difficult call....but it is not supposed to be so.. ideally it is not suposed to be so..

Dear Babus, at the end of the day, fame, importance and arrogance is also a gruesome kind of capitalism, you can accumulate it, bank it, live off it. But it can suffocate you, block off the blood vessels to the brain, isolate you, make you lose touch. It pushes you up to the surface and you forget how to keep your ear to the ground. That is what has happend to most of you leading to abject failures of Administration in the Country..

I think it is important to retreat sometimes. Because you can really get caught up in fact and detail, fact and detail, and forget how to think conceptually, and that’s a kind of prison. Speaking for myself, I’m ready for a jail-break. you also break sometimes for your own good or you shall be trapped...

There is the danger, especially for one who becomes important like you all do, that you can become somebody who does what is expected of you. you could act like Msters which you do. ince you were not that,it could end up boring you to death. In India, the political anti-establishment can be socially very conservative (Bring on the gay Gandhians!) and can put a lot of pressure on you to become something which may not necessarily be what you want to be: they want you to dress in a particular way, be virtuous, be sacrificing, it’s a sort of imaginary and quite often faulty extrapolation of what the middle class assumes the ‘people’, the ‘masses’ want and expect. It can be maddening, and I want to say like Bunty in Bunty aur Babli, ‘Mujhe yeh izzat aur sharafat ki zindagi se bachao…’ Come out of that consiratorial gown
and go not be gag masters always..
There are all kinds of things that work to dull, leaden your soul…to weigh you down…..."

One of that perenial burdon of your souls is the prejudice of being "permanent executines" and the "political Controllers" to prevent Mutiny...which was not there...which would not be there..

Can some one humanise you all a bit...for the good of this Country..

Jai Hind...

Anonymous said...

"Political Control" ??

"IPS officer serves notice on Bihar minister: An IPS officer has served a legal notice on Bihar’s urban development and housing minister Bhola Singh for making derogatory remarks against him.

TOI

What a Political Control??? Ha.Ha..ha...