Tuesday, February 17, 2009

DRDO's lumbering Kaveri jet engine at Aero India 09

49 comments :

Anonymous said...

wow that really is a rust-bucket!!

iambob said...

What the hell are you talking about, I don't see any rust ...

Anonymous said...

This is with reference to the previous comment "wow that really is a rust-bucket!!"

The person that made the comment seems to want to put down the engine. I admit that I have no idea about how it works or the relative merits or demerits of that particular engine. It certainly does not look like a rust bucket. And for all that commenter knows it can be the most advanced piece of technology out there.

Just because the heading of rthis post had "Lumbering" in it and sounded negative, this person had to put it down. I expect he/she is designing the next engine that the F22 is going to use..

Whether it is the Kaveri or any other similar project for that matter, the DRDO and other labs are accumulating experience with the texhnology and that is of great value. I think that should be appreciated.

neosumit said...

pure scrap

Anonymous said...

Shiv, go to BR and check the latest about Kaveri. Undergoing flight tests. It's almost over.

max said...

shiv, tell us why do you call it "lumbering" ?

Anonymous said...

not so bad either...........had we reversed engineered like chinese aany thing would have been possible.........

Anonymous said...

neosumit
why is it scrap ? Although it didnt come all the way to our expectations, still we learned from it. The problem with most of u is that you look at western planes, engnes etc and think india should be able to make one too. Thats not possible we have to learn something now, what theyve been doing for a few decades. Comeon think about it from Marut (generation 2) we jumped to LCA (gen 4. now go and do a google search and see how many countries have been able to do that. Due to socio/political/economical reasons we couldnt develop weapon system etc like the other nations, but instead of derifind whatever small steps we are taking now, we should be proud of them.
but Alas people like you will see a brochure of f-22 and start complaining again why cant we make those.

Anonymous said...

I don't know why every inanimate object has to have a name!Think of this, talking about Engine here and call it "Kaveri"; call a cat ot a dog that!What's wrong with simply PowerjetIN245 or whatever.I can't ever recall the river Kaveri being one of those boisterous forces anyway!

Anonymous said...

Anon@ 1.06AM,
Care to explain your comment?

Anonymous said...

Specs decide whether its lumbering or racy!! What are the details about the power output/weight ratio, Shiv?

Anonymous said...

A distinction needs to be made here between patriotism (by always appreciating DRDO for all the crap it produces) or criticism(for its failed projects).
I understand DRDO is a haven for its workers and scientists but for other simple taxpayers its a money sucking blackhole.
Tell me what's the use of accumulating knowledge? DRDO is accumulating it since almost forever, what is DRDO planning to do of such knowledge.
By knowledge are you referring to the yellow paged notebooks which drdo scientists carry?
A aircraft engine is a complex machine not easy to master, even chinese couldn't reverse engineer russian rd-33 for their JF-17. Chinese did make an exact replica of RD but their engine lacked in one critical area i.e. it was slower to respond to increased thrust requirement.
Coming back to DRDO's Kaveri , its a completely failed project whats harm in calling it a rust bucket?
And yes this piece of crap engine shouldn't be named after a revered river.

Anonymous said...

To Anon @ 8.23PM,
Agree with your sentiment. Do qualify your statement about it being crap. Specific info would be welcome.

iambob said...

I was under the impression that the engine performed to its initial specs but then the requirements changed(IAF), and DRDO could not improve on the Kaveri.

Am I wrong ?

Anonymous said...

To the last poster. Do you understand what "complete faliure means". I think you have a problem with your comprehension of the English language. The Kaveri engine is by no stretch of the imagination a "complete faliure" and I am not being patriotic!! It has lead to the navalized version which is powering a ship at this time, it has proved a lot of technologies and concepts for the scientists working on engine. It takes 20-30 years for developing an engine, India is trying to develop a modern engine from scratch, of course we will have problems. And for your information, in English slang language "lumbering" means huge or large, that is what Shiv was referring to, there is nothing negative about that. You need to examin your rusted brain that is stuck in the "faliure" mode.

Arun said...

I cant believe these idiots. Only an Engineer would understand how difficult it is to develop a technology. I dont where these babbling idiots come from, but to tell you guys the truth, I wont give up technology I developed to anyone. So good luck trying to replicate what I did in the paper I am going to publish in two months. It is about the spray characteristics of urea water solution being injected into a stream of exhaust gases. There are not many research papers on that , and you idiots wont believe how difficult it is to get information on that.
That is a simple example of how technology can be held back. The Americans made the first airplane. But at the time there were simultaneous inventions of propulsion systems, and the West had already evolved into an industrialized society.
At that time , we were being ruled by the British, and had apprehensions about technology, because we were stuck in our f**in past. And for all purposes we still are....because we f****in blame our engineers for producing sub standard stuff, and praise the westerners, even though our stuff was made at a 100th of the cost...it is like comparing a Mercedes and a Ford. The Ford does the job, and is suitably entertaining to drive...hell the Mustang is one awesome car...but then the Merc is in a different class....why? because it is F*****IN more expensive. The Merc's development cost, its testing cost, the materials used, are all more expensive...there is no need for it, but they just do it...
In the F-22's case....do these babbling air force top brass f**kers realise that the F-22's program cost was about $65 billion?? If the Indians could cough up that much money for the whole fo our armed forces in one year....it would sound preposterous.... And the fuckers at IAF want an LCA which has the weapons load of an F-18, the manouverability of an F-16, the stealth of an F-22, and the thrust to weight ratio of the F-22....how fantastic....
The Kaveri Engine when it was conceived , was just conceived for just 81KN of max thrust...now that the F*****in air force has changed its ASR..the kaveri needs to develop 120KN without throwing turbine blades....that is when we have only started developing single crystal turbine blade tech...oh and that kind of thrust increase would mean a more than 20% increase in operating temperatures...how do I know that? I specialize in CFD. Oh anyways, I am still here in the USA doing my masters in mechanical engineering with fluid mechanics as my major...maybe I would be going to Cranfield University in England for my second Masters in aerodynamics and turbine engines...but that is still a ways away....then I will have more for these f***ks...because then I will have more authority to talk about it...The Russians first made their jet engine from a reverse engineered copy of a British Jet engine...and the americans first made their jet engine after they got an actual engine from the brits...did India copy technology like the chinese or the Russians? No because we have B**lls....
Anyways, we are still learning and let them do their f***in work...
It took the WEST a long time to develop jet tech... so give the guys time.
Well I think Mr. Aroor, you should be mindful, and find out exactly how much time it takes to develop a jet engine from scratch( core, metallurgy tech, etc) and then call the effort 'lumbering'.
I am not saying that we should give the DRDO plaudits, they should not get anything till they finish their development...but what they need is resources...and for that...we need to rid India of our f****in politicians and bureaucracy...maybe we young Indians to take the country over and put these F**kS who sold our country ( by being corrupt) in prison , and then build our country together which has the potential to be the most prosperous in the world....
Jai Hind.

Anonymous said...

Compared to the earlier displays of the engine, this one looks very nea and almost ready

hawkeye said...

hey u rust prone asshole, no pkstni junk here for allahsake

engine dev takes time and it will work Insha- Allah !

Anonymous said...

Lumbering(Slow and laborious because of weight) for an aircraft engine surely signifies failure and its a rather good term to define a failed jet engine. After 30 years of blowing money into development what's the use of "lumbering" engine. Chinese rejected their copy of russian engine as it 'lumbered' only a little while accelerating, so don't underestimate that word.
It will be great to see if that can be turned into a naval turbine.
Now my question is how is DRDO planning to tackle the complexity of aircraft engines? Has it learnt from its mistakes in this project and several other failed ones?
Or they are again planning next(future) generation of equipment which will take another 30 yrs to .....
My other question what's patriotism has to do with accepting failure? just to remind you drdo's materials department has done decent job of producing carbon airframe and it takes more than just money to develop tech, instead of shouting here why cant you learn from that department and relax internal babuism a little.

Arun said...

FYI....Chinese copy of the Lyulka(now Saturn) Al-31 called the Woshang Taihan -WS-10 was 50% slower in acclereation.....they could not even do a copy quite right....

captainjohann said...

I saw this engine mockup in 1974 when i first visited HAL.Politicians,media have no way to ask questions from the HAL CEOs and HAL has no shame showing of this engine.Unless it is merged with LCA and IAF is made to fly compulsorily, it has no future.

Anonymous said...

arun@ 7:34 AM

you had written so well......only if the words with ***** could have been avoided......keep posting your comments....

there was a article regarding the gripens not coming to aero india.....and a user had pointed out that LCA originaly had box shaped air- intakes and it was with the involvement of the french Snechma that the present curved intakes came into existence.....can you throw some light on the issue........

the link- https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6050542&postID=8787674138141571367&isPopup=true

Kartik said...

its damn easy for a B.A. pass type journo like this Shiv Aroor, to make a comment like "lumbering" and for other non-engineer and non-science related types to make derogatory remarks on DRDO and its engineers and scientists. it takes someone with a level of education in science and some industry or laboratory experience to even START to appreciate how complex the technology that DRDO works on is..that nowhere else in all of India is this technology available..and the money spent on it is peanuts compared to what US, UK, France, etc. spend..its too much to expect nitwits like this journalist or some of the other anonymous posters who talk of "taxpayer's money"..

even most private sector companies in India simply get foreign consultants who do all the legwork and only the assembly of plants/equipment is done by the private sector themselves.

Shiv Aroor said...

that's right kartik. it takes a half-wit mediocrity-loving buffoon like you to say all that nonsense you just said :) get a life, and a passion for excellence, and maybe you'll understand what criticism means. moron.

Anonymous said...

Well said Shiv, keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

kartik @ 2:02am is none other than Mr.Prasun .K. Sengupta.

Anonymous said...

kaveri is a kalank on our r&d establishment. i have seen these bloody gtre fellows preening at seminars and defence functions in india and abroad as if they have invented the greatest turbofans on earth. they have the best facilities and the most complacent & lazy scientists. look at the npol fellows. you will never even see them anywhere. quietly they do their work and deliver wondrous products for the entire nation to admire. the sonars which has made our country fully selfreliant come from that lab. and look at gtre. what have they done? bloody nothing. and they have the gall to display kaveri engine at aero india as if it is some achievement. it is a worthless piece of trash as has been described by some here. i disagree with the post title. it is not lumbering programme. it is a DEAD programme, and should rightly be killed by the govt, and the scientists of gtre should be thrown behind bars for wasting national funds.

Mihir said...

"Kartik" @ 2:02am has probably done more work on cutting-edge aircraft tech than all of you anonymous folks (and shiv) put together.

So I would show him a little more respect.

Shiv Aroor said...

mihir: actually, i've done NO work on cutting edge aircraft technology! have you? :) and whoever "kartik" may be, either way, it takes nothing from the fact that the kaveri is an emblem of mediocrity. plain and simple. and this has nothing to do with the self-reliance argument. sometimes it just boils down to not being able to cut it. so let's get real about who shows who respect!

Anonymous said...

Why so less number of intake blades for this engine..11? Other engine in the same blog "F-125IN engine" has close to 30 blades.

Mihir said...

Shiv,

Mediocrity of what? The product? Or the effort that went into making the engine? About the former, you are right, though in a very narrow sense. But as far as the latter goes, a lot of information revealed at AI '09 shows that the GTRE did a good job, considering the odds they were against. Sniperz11 has done an excellent job documenting this on BR.


Kartik,

I hope you are the same Kartik I know :-D

Mihir said...

PS: Shiv, though I haven't worked on aircraft engines, I have done my share of research and know what goes into the development of a new product. Excellence doesn't come cheap, and "passion for excellence" alone isn't enough when it comes to developing an extremely complex technology. When a company is developing something totally new, the performance of the final product often falls below expectations, and it is not difficult for the layman to label the effort an "emblem of mediocrity", when it is anything but. Kartik is the expert here, and he's absolutely right. You aren't.

Bobs said...

anon @ 9:15 am
those are not intake blades....they are simply the inlet guide vanes....some turbofans have while others don't.

Rahul Singh said...

so the kartik @ 2:02am was none other than the poor BRfite 'Mihir'.....pity he got a verbal treat from shiv.....keep it up,shiv...we expect more from you including your trademark FLYING F's.

Anonymous said...

anon @ 9:15am
why less blades???? man,the funds were not sufficient

Anonymous said...

That is the problem with dumbed down forums like this. Folks cant make out the difference between and inlet guide vane and a fan blade, and they become 'experts' on Gas Turbines!.

And yeah, passion for excellence indeed. Somehow I never got the impression that Indian Express and Headline Today were exactly places that were either "Excellent" in themselves or gave a damn about nurturing excellence . The "Express" is anything but "Excellent" and if they excel in anything it is in mudslinging and hatchet jobs.

Anonymous said...

It will never equip all LCA, why because there are better aircraft on offer to India. More importantly Indi has the cash to buy them. Thats why India will lag behind, unless it relies on weaker equipment.

On regards to reverse engineering, why has India failed to do that. Copying is not easy and it creates the infustructure for future weapons.

Anonymous said...

"They are simply the inlet guide vanes....some turbofans have while others don't."

I C. Hmmm. Will there be that much needed weight reduction if we remove them?

Anonymous said...

rubbish. the kaveri is a dud. anyone can say anything about it. it is a dud. and not because india does not have good scientists. but because gtre has been cursed with complacent, narrow-minded, lazy, crooked and plain untalented staff from the word go. the kaveri engine project has been cursed from the very beginning. i interned briefly with the lab in the mid 90's and can tell you first hand that it was the most uninspiring platform for a new professional. if someone wants to lose all sense of love for technology and the pursuit of excellence, then they should without fail apply for an internship with gtre.

Anonymous said...

I dont understand why India is not putting more effort and uregency into developing jet engines and computer chip. These are technologies that are very important to India's developement. BTW, GTRE guys and Indian people should understand setbacks are part of developement. GTRE would be failures only if they give up; they have to keep going.

Anonymous said...

I dont understand why India is not putting more effort and uregency into developing jet engines and computer chip. These are technologies that are very important to India's developement. BTW, GTRE guys and Indian people should understand setbacks are part of developement. GTRE would be failures only if they give up; they have to keep going.

captainjohann said...

Hi all,
Why so many people have to put 'ANONYMOUS" comments?Many of them may be working in the project and they are unable to voice their opinion freely and frankly within the limitations of security. I hope TRUTH is told and India produces ENGINES which are fitted in aircrafts.

Anonymous said...

My bros frankly speaking there has been a lot of efforts that has went in but the only thing that we got was the embargo in 1998 & lack of funds from 2000-04,changing requirements of IAF(cant blame them for that) and what do we get all this crisism.& for the captain above yes im am a gov employ. by ARUN KURUP(working for DRDO)

captainjohann said...

Dear Arun Kurup,
Why criticism or answering them is such a bad idea?
You have revealed three reasons for failure of the engine's progress
1.1998 Embargo
2Lack of funds
3.Changing IAF requirements.
I saw this mock up (may be the same in 1972 or 1974 when i visted HAL).
HF24,Dornier 228.AVRO 748,GNATs and Ajeets.
One has to analyse OPENLY why these aircrafts are not flying now?Even today GNATS can eb a good fighter in valleys like J7K or in Assam.One has to expose the IMPORT LOBBY which functions in Defence Ministry and Services headquarters.How the airstaff requirements are changed to suit the imports. etc.

Anonymous said...

My bro captain,ur mentioning of the gnat's & ajeet r not relavant.THERE is no such big advantage of using them in the valley's & flying these 2nd gen planes,maintaining them and managing there operational costs is difficult. Speaking about the import lobby,there is no such big lobby operating now,since the late 80's.But still many a times we swing towards countries due to cheap diplomacy,but after the bill to avoid middle men & ets & to establish direct link with the provider there has been a lot of improvements.Sending u this reply from rajastan,where the brammos block 2 test r succesfully concluding.
JAI HIND (arun kurup)

Anonymous said...

Humm-captain sorry for that short comment but know i am having an half n hour tea brake so i am writing this,proud to say that we have successfully concluded the block 2 tests of the brammo & r the only nation to have such a high precisson cruise missle,10 times better than US TOMMO.Just few tests away for induction.Regarding ur previous quiries,i would like to say that critisisum is good but if u read the previous comments of many other iddiots u will realize that they r not aware of what they r talking about,most of them have done no home work on the topic they r talking about & r expressing there presonal oppinions & mislead information.Sir ur q about the avro,i would like to mention that there r better machine available today & we have keep pace with our enimies.It has been great talking to u Sir,JAI HIND (arun kurup)

anthony said...

Indeed. Developing a turbofan engine from scratch doesn't just take basic knowledge about operation of jet engines, it takes every component in attentive detail, and the desired result is the full functionality with minimal flaws.

India is progressing on developing its indigenous turbofan with pure R&D.

captainjohann said...

Dear Arun,
I saw your reply only today.We are proud of Brahmos but there are enemy agents who can fit chips on them that it can fail. Hope we have full scope safeguards.
I donot agree with you about import lobby.It functions and functions very effectively in all the three service hqtrrs.The recent arrest of DRDO procurement boss by CBI says that it can enter the science lobby also.

Anonymous said...

"kaveri is an emblem of mediocrity. plain and simple" and you say you have no expertise then shut your mouth, moron!