Thursday, July 16, 2009

More Stuff on the IAF Mirage-2000 Upgrade


Will post details tomorrow on the Thales helmet mounted display system (HMDS) that's been selected by the Indian Navy for the MiG-29K.

28 comments :

Anonymous said...

ok at 40 million price tage upgrade we supposed to get larger MFDs like those in gripen,mig35

russia also has DRFM jammer pod,el/m elta 8222 jammer from israel and thierd one
PAJ FA of french origine

so there are two pods for m2000

1)PAJ FA DRFM jammer
2)ASTAC ELINT pod

not sure whether there is RECO NG pod coming with this upgrade or not

AK said...

There seems to be some ToT with this deal. What exactly is the ToT for can anyone explain.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, what is so special about this kit? Why can't or aren't we making this stuff ourselves? Why do we need to overpay the French for such basic stuff? Something is rotten, and it isn't the five day old paneer pasanda in my fridge.

Wolfandman said...

This is an upgrade with equipment at least a decade old.

But the philosophy it seems is to have the Mirages humming along smoothly with proven stuff and with a no-nonsense steady maintenance schedule.

Anonymous said...

one can buy new mig35 for 50 million with aesa radar

Anonymous said...

Has the Mig-35 proved itself in A2G role? Aesa or no Aesa, Mirage-2000 is a very mature platform and has proved its worth in combat. Am sure there is more to it than just schoolboy arithmetic which is involved in this deal.

INDIAN said...

shiv,

you can tell us how much of this money is going into congress leaders pockets?

i mean into sonia ji`s ?

poor lady she dont even own a car.
probably she is trying to own a Air bus jumbojet :)

Anonymous said...

Has the Mig-35 proved itself in A2G role? Aesa or no Aesa, Mirage-2000 is a very mature platform and has proved its worth in combat. Am sure there is more to it than just schoolboy arithmetic which is involved in this deal.
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why MIG will be wasting many millions on costly LGBs just to prove a2g capability,and those LGBs already operationl on mki

how many LGBs m2000 dropped in kargil??? and which aircraft was escorting m2000 to drop lgbs

AK said...

At $40 mil per a/c this better be good. Otherwise the congress has another Bofors in it's hands.

Anonymous said...

Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10985

This explains why IAF is now willing to spend big money on western systems. Mirage 2000 is like Honda City, it may be overpriced but offers impeccable quality.

esoteric said...

I thought Mirage is an old aircraft, an upgrade to it means we are desperate.

This leads me to doubt whether IAF has any real superiority with China....

I personally think not.

Kartik said...

To Esoteric ,

Mirages are old, but when you look at what the bulk of the PLAAF operates and what the PAF operates, its contemporary. its avionics and radar and missiles are old in the tooth now and to be current in the sub-continent through till 2025, it really desperately needs the upgrades. especially with the missiles, I'm quite sure their shelf lives must be nearing the end and it would be waste of money to order Magic IIs and R-530Ds (if they are even made now). so, without the upgrade, since IAF Mirages cannot fire the MICA, they would be pretty much toothless once the missile shelf lives are over.

the PAF is also upgrading its F-16A/Bs to the F-16 Block 50 standards and is acquiring even more older F-16A/Bs and upgrading them. plus, the 500 AMRAAMs its ordered mean that the IAF needs its Mirages to be armed with a modern equivalent A2A missile.

without the upgrades, the Mirages would be inferior to the PAF F-16s, but with the upgrades, the Mirage-2000-5 Mk.2 is on par with the F-16 Block 50 that the PAF operates, which itself is superior to anything that the PLAAF operates currently..the J-10 is still under development and it will eventually be a good fighter, but as of now, the Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 should be more than adequate against anything that the PLAAF or PAF can field against the IAF.

as for those who are complaining about cost, its understandable, but the IAF cannot just let its Mirages fly with the older RDI radars, older avionics, no HMS and with R-530D and Magic IIs as their primary Air to Air armament and then retire them in a few years like the French AF is planning on doing..first of all, there is a major shortage of fighters in the IAF, and the last thing the IAF needs is to phase out 3 squadrons of this multi-role fighter.

so, a structural upgrade at least was the minimal requirement to keep it in service for another 20 years or thereabouts. then again, the the PAF has now acquired the F-16 Block 50 and will upgrade all its F-16s to that level..it would be utterly foolish to let go waste such a capable platform as the Mirage..ask anyone in the IAF as to what its reputation is- very very reliable and apart from the Su-30MKI, currently the only multi-role platform in the IAF..alongwith the MiG-29UPG, it will really make up for the shortage of fighters as more and more MiG-21s get retired.

and the IAF set the benchmark for the LCA also as the Mirage-2000. its handling qualities, its FBW and FCS are top class, and to date, there hasn't been a SINGLE Mirage-2000 lost due to a FCS failure. its responsiveness to pilot commands is very well appreciated by its pilots, who've flown IAF's other fighters.

ADA's chief P.S. Subramaniam also proudly proclaimed in an interview that the LCA is claimed by its test pilots to be as good and in some aspects, better than the Mirage-2000 in flight characteristics. so till the MKI arrived in numbers, the gold standard in the IAF was the Mirage-2000.

The upgrade comes with a very large number of new missiles and A2G armament as well, and the MICA is a really expensive missile, but its MICA IR variant is one of the biggest threats to any fighters around, considering its range (which is a lot for an IR missile) and the fact that unless an enemy fighter has a Missile Approach Warning System, its toast. also reputedly, the MICA EM is very hard to jam, and reputedly has a higher Probability of kill than even the AMRAAM.

Anonymous said...

MICA IR variant is one of the biggest threats to any fighters around, considering its range (which is a lot for an IR missile) and the fact that unless an enemy fighter has a Missile Approach Warning System, its toast
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can u explain how mirage will fire MICA IR without IRST which rafale has

thanks.

Anonymous said...

to kartik

unless an enemy fighter has a Missile Approach Warning System
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mig35 has SOLO,SOAR systems one is for MAWS

and other one is for laser warning receiver(shows when aircraft is being targeted by laser range finder)

Anonymous said...

there is no MICA IR on m2000 only active radar MICA and MICA IR never been shown on m2000

anthony said...

Good idea for the upgrades, and I like the TopOwl HMD.

How much will the upgrades cost per Mirage 2000?

Anonymous said...

@1:20 :
colour mfd could be made in india,
electronic warfare stuff and equipment cannot, that's why it is being bought to thales & israelis

Anonymous said...

Good idea for the upgrades, and I like the TopOwl HMD.

How much will the upgrades cost per Mirage 2000?
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shows you just wake up,go to bathroom have a tea then come here and top own is for helicopters.

Anonymous said...

colour mfd could be made in india

You, sir, truly are a moron. We even import LCD computer monitors and TVs from Malaysia, S. Korea, Taiwan, China etc. And you expect us to make "MFDs"! Name some LCD panel manufacturing facility in India. Name one Indian company which makes the equipment used to make LCDs. Of course, in ten years time we will have one such factory thanks to LG or Samsung, but then the rest of the world will be using OLEDs.

The best DRDO can do is buy foreign MFD, make stickers for it in India (like Munjals Honda) and claim it is an 'Indian' MFD. They have been doing this limited assembly and passing off products as indiginous for some time now, why stop now. Who cares if our domestic manufacturing abilities are non-existent, we believe in fairy tales only.

esoteric said...

Kartik,

It will take time to upgrade the Mirage's. During this period wont we be left vulnerable? Wondering if this upgrade is to mollycoddle the French as MOD might not shortlist Rafale.(and given the current French warmth to Dr Singh).

If TOT is part of the deal..then maybe it indicates the opposite that India would be going in for Rafale...

I sense a connection between the RFP and this upgrade...

Anonymous said...

This Mirage upgrade is so damn expensive, it would be cheaper in the long run to just acquire more Su-30 MKI or single seater Su-35. Daylight robbery by the frenchies, and we are indeed paying a ridiculously high price for not nurturing domestic manufacturing.

Unacceptable.

Anonymous said...

As if buying more russian junk would be the solution.

Their missiles are junk, their artillery shell are junk, but who care ? let's buy more junk !

Anonymous said...

As if buying more russian junk would be the solution.

Their missiles are junk, their artillery shell are junk, but who care ? let's buy more junk !
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ur mind is junk thats why u always thought of only junk.its simple

NJS said...

This upgrade should be really useful , if upgrading mirage can handle Meteor / Astra air to air missile with perfect longer range Radar . Mica is only 40 km range AAM . we need BVR capable in mirage , otherwise each mirage should depend on mig29 or su30 for air safety guard at war time in every takeoff .
IAF should take needful steps in fastback .

Anonymous said...

I have often wondered whether anyone takes the opinion of the pilots who fly the fighters rather than those of babus,pols, journos and arm chair jockeys. Let us ask our fly boys whether they would like an upgrade for Mirage 2000. If they are enthusiastic, then damn the cost and let us implement that at full steam.

Secondly Taiwan is planning to mothball its 2000's . We can take advantage of this if our pilots feel so. I feel that replacing older Mig 21's with these babies is preferable any day.

I am getting an extremly bad feeeling that our Govt. has a well thought out plan to "impotentise' our armed forces especially the Air force and our Service Chief's are hand in glove - maybe because the post retirement lucre is too mouthwatering to ignore - the nation,its young piots,sailors,jawans be damned. They keep on blabbering sanctimonious lies of air dominance,net centric etc. while the force levels keep dropping.Even the Hawk deal is in trouble because BAE kicks our rear ; while other nations are purchasing new trainers from Russia,Pakistan( China), Europe ,Korea etc.The Army chief does not have the guts to go to Dr. Man.Singh with the name of the 155 mm gun he wants and say " buy this because my boys want this - or else " - no sir , he is happy with the status quo and still assures the nation about " our preparedness vis a vis China. The Air Chief does not seem in a hurry to buy basic trainers as he has the capability to defeat the enemy with "Request for Proposals" .

Anonymous said...

Any possibility of UAE's Mirage 2000-5s being part of the deal with IAF?

Anonymous said...

To cut the long story short, having flown Mirage and the Sukhois adequately, the upgrade is worth it.
Points to Ponder - Do not get fooled by statistical data (ranges) on BVRs. A 40 km BVR (SSKP 0.8) might be much better than an 80 km one (SSKP 0.5). Probability of hit, whether D Max 1 or D Max 2 is something which must be considered before looking at launch ranges. Remember the longer the range, bigger the missile, lesser the manoeuvrability, lesser the hit probability, more the identification problems and so on. Can one really exploit the full BVR range (without fear of frat) in a dense combat environment or a merge.

Anonymous said...

Remember the longer the range, bigger the missile, lesser the manoeuvrability, lesser the hit probability, more the identification problems and so on. Can one really exploit the full BVR range (without fear of frat) in a dense combat environment or a merge.
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If you have 100 brain cells, why use all 100 if you can live on 10 only? Because you are a moron.

IAF = Imported air force.