Tuesday, September 22, 2009

Rafale Wins The MMRCA Competition On LiveFist!

In a poll conducted here on LiveFist, the French would probably be pleased to know that readers of this blog thought that the Rafale should be chosen in India's $12-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition. In almost 1,000 votes polled over two days, the Rafale was on top with 28 per cent (278 votes)! What definitely won't warm the cockles of the folks at Lockheed-Martin is that the company's F-16IN Super Viper was trounced, coming in last with a measly 3 per cent of votes polled (38 votes). The Russian MiG-35 enjoys a great a deal of love, obviously, despite being heckled about quite a bit. The Fulcrum-F took 225 votes, that's a nice chunky 23 per cent of the total votes polled. Sweden's Gripen disappointed with a 12 per cent performance (120 votes), though it was still miles above its bête noire in the competition, the F-16. Not surprisingly, readers placed the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Boeing F/A-18 virtually neck-t0-neck with 16 (166 votes) and 15 per cent (151 votes) of the total votes polled respectively.

Photo of Rafale ©Copyright Dassault Aviation


Anonymous said...

Wonderful, now only if the GOI and the IAF were to follow through on your creative survey results...again - what exactly were you looking to achieve?

Shiv Aroor said...

@anon: nothing! i was just testing out that poll widget thing in blogger. interesting though, huh.

Anonymous said...

all those who voted for Rafale would not mind Euro Typhoon winning the competition, as these are the only two engined Aircrafts that are truly built from scratch rather than some old patch ups.

vishal said...

Shiv, cn I get ur no. to cl u as a friend ....... I am a great fan of urs........

Anonymous said...

this poll is useless, the chances of it wininng are still low because its so damn expensive..shame you all for choosing it...half the country is naked on the streets...millions go hungry everynight you bastards want to spend well over 120 million per aircraft, screw the rafale.

Anonymous said...

I felt so happy until I read the later part of title "on livefist".

Anonymous said...

Shiv: I'm the one who posted the very first comment and truly appreciate your honest reply. On a side note, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the MMRCA & LCA engine contracts to be awarded without the usual delays and/or hold ups the defense establishment has had to bear. We need these to go through smoothly.

Anonymous said...

Dear Shiv Aroor,

Thanks a lot for putting up the pictures of the Arjun tank, ALH, LCA, and Guns- they are all extremely beautiful and informative. I am an editor Wikipedia, which is currently the 5th most-visited English-language website in the world. There are over 2.5 million articles on English Wikipedia, and over 7.9 million registered editors. You can view my Wikipedia user page at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:chitresh verma.

I hope you might be willing to license this image for use on Wikipedia to be used to illustrate the article. As before, attribution will be given to you and linked to your blog.

I was wondering if I could I use some of the pictures that you've taken of the ships, LCA, ALH and the Arjun on the respective Wikipedia pages? Namely: Arjun MBT, HAL Tejas, HAL Dhruv, and the associated pages for the individual projects, and any other pages where these pictures might be useful. As of now, there are very few good pictures of the Future of the Indian Armed Forces, as well as large size images of the Arjun tank. Your images will really go a long way in improving on that.

"I own the copyright to the image(s) attached to this email letter. Copyright © belongs to me, all rights reserved. I grant permission to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike License v.2.5 India: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/in/. Redistribution must reproduce the above copyright notice, my name, and this list of conditions in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution; Neither my name nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from it without specific prior written permission."

Thanks a lot for your time and effort in taking those photographs, and the patience in allowing me to use them. If you need any clarifications regarding this, please contact me, and I shall try to answer them.

Warm Regards

Sarang said...

Just a poll, interesting though, never thought people look so favorably at Rafale
May the best fighter for India win!!

Anonymous said...

According to Wikipedia Image use policy, Wikipedia accepts only freely-licensed pictures; This means that images you license out can be freely used, modified and distributed, either commercially or non-commercially, under the condition that attribution be provided to the copyright holder, namely, you.

If you would like to contribute the image, you could license it license it out under Creative Commons 2.5 India. Attribution will be provided to you. If you agree, could you reply to me by email, and include the following statement in your e-mail:

"I own the copyright to the image(s) attached to this email letter. Copyright © belongs to me, all rights reserved. I grant permission to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike License v.2.5 India: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/in/. Redistribution must reproduce the above copyright notice, my name, and this list of conditions in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution; Neither my name nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from it without specific prior written permission."

Thanks a lot for your time and effort in taking those photographs, and the patience in allowing me to use them. If you need any clarifications regarding this, please contact me, and I shall try to answer them.

Warm Regards

Anonymous said...

you can also reply by post here if you do not want to e-mail copyright permission.

Shiv Aroor said...

anon@1.13am: You are welcome to pick up any of the photos here that I own the copyright to. I cannot speak for photos that I have picked up myself with due attribution to the respective copyright holder. But regarding any of the photos taken by me, or if I mention that the copyright is mine or LiveFist's, then you're most welcome to use them on Wikipedia.

Anonymous said...

Oh well I voted for F/A-18 but rafale won,If it wins better be the naval variant,the future is power projection and I think 5 aircraft carriers can take at least 3 squadrons of rafale(if it wins),I think IN-IAF should work together like the joint force harrier of RAF-RN

Anonymous said...

thank you shiv copyright permission.

Tejaswy said...

O Come on the MiG 35 came very very close to winning....5% Margin is acceptable I guess

Vin said...

Hi Shiv-ji,

I feel it's obvious from voting results that voters aren't going for American's or Saab's as they both are unreliable in terms of accomplishing the ends of needs

On the other hand, me or any voter love to see Russian (inspite of differences in Gorshkov) or French products as the deals are reliable or nearly-reliable.

Anonymous said...

Buy planes from a country that hasn't won a war? :)

Anonymous said...

For the nth time. Rafael is not expensive, at least not as expensive as EF or SH. This has been confirmed in the Brazilian competition. The key for IAF as stated is "minimal life cycle cost" and Rafael was designed with minimal moving parts(no air brakes, retractable refueling probe) to reduce maintenance and do away with overhauling requirements just to achieve that.

Anonymous said...

How can a simple vote poll by 90% anonymous people decide the winner?

Well, since wer'e at it....here is my two bit in.

I shoudl imagine that there shoudl be two winners, with doubling of the order size, so that the IAF bolsters its depeleting strenght faster. Also, its good to split your risks, especially if one option is the Russians....see my first choice below:

1. MiG-35 - there is at least some commonality with MiG-29. already I believe the engines of any upgraded MiG-29 (for the IAF) will be the same as on the MiG-35. IAF already has a large fleet of MiG-29s. HAL already assembles MiG-29s & is familair with the Russsians. MiG-35 as one of the winners is a no brainer.

2. F-18- You cant leave the Americans out, especially after theve been more than a freind to India in the past few years...from civil nuclear power to pressure on Pakistan (even if that is undoing some of their own faults). Also, the F-18 is a fully loaded tried and tested, and proven to be better than any F-16/FC-1/J-10 that PAF/PLAAF can throw at us. Also a large installed base across many nations. Finally, its engine (GE-414) will probably be the final choice for the LCA Mark-II and ADA is already familar with GE.

Finally a word on the losers-

Rafale and Grippen have already made there Plan-B moves (in the even of losing the IAF deal). Both (the French and Swedes) are actively courting Brazil, which is easily the world's second largest fighter sale prospect after the IAF MMRCA. On the platter are industrial and technology transfers, production facilities in Brazil (for Rafale & Grippen), co-development of 5th generation fighters. The last is most important, considering that both Dassault and Grippen need a 5th generation fighter program, if they want to remain in business in the near future. Very near!

How the tables have turned: India has not one, but two 5th generaton fighter programs (PAK-FA/T-50 and FGFA) already on its plate. The future of aeronautice seems bright for India.

Anonymous said...

i will be happy if we choose rafale but this is huge deal 12bn what ever country that we choose should not sell their weapons to our enemies atleast to pakis , chinkis, the choosen country should reach strategic relationship with india

but i seriously doubt frenchs they will sell their mother too for money trade selling agostas , radars to pakis and willing to sell weapons to chinkis and now delaying scorpions with us

chandrabhan said...

SHi Shiv,
I voted for Rafale because of the following..
1. French products are as good as any amaerican except for the glitzy bit in terms of technology.
2. French follow an independent foriegn policy to that of Anglo - Saxon brigade - US & the poodle UK
3. They may look expensive on paper but Rafale has only won one foreign order till today , Brazillian one that too a week back. Prices can be negotiated down.
4. Indian orders have lot of prestige attached to it b'cos of the kind of testing and rigorous requirements we put.
5. There is lot of common infrastructure with M2K, which we are already using.
6. French can and will transfer far more technology than any of the other manufacturers and most important - AESA (Thales is developing).

Typhoon is a khichdi of 6 nations and loads of components are spread over indifferent countries. US, I reserve my comment. Their Kangress can block anything and AESA tech transfer, Will not be allowed.

Ruskies, Our old friends are just developing MIG35. Price escalations are not much of an issue, they are just irritants but their delivery schedules are an issue.

Sweeden is a political lightweight and Grippen has many components from US(Boeing) otherwise it is a decent plane but we already are planning to induct Tejas in the same class so won't fit in

the terminator said...

I feel the poll was a waste of time, effort and space. No matter what the readers of your blog and participants of the poll believe, it does not account for anything where the GOI, MOD and the IAF are concerned.

Add to that the vested interests in the purchase of big armed forces equipment. They care two hoots for national interest and security. All they are interested is their kickbacks.

We may all have a nasty surprise when the final deal is done.

Pravin said...

Hi Friends this is my first post …. So please give me your feedback…. Thanks

I voted for Mig35 because.....
1) Mig 35 has thrust vectoring engines... As it has been proved many times by Su 30MKI that it beats F16, F18 and F15 consistently with its thurst vectoring.
2) It will be supplied with Zuke ME AESA Radar..
3) It will be cheaper than others and IAF has lot of experience of maintaining Mig 29 fighters and its engines...
4) It is not porn to sanctions as it don’t have US made parts

SO I think it has better chances of winning the competition

Two things that which I think are negative are
1) Recent prise escalations in Gorshkov and other deals. But all other countries are also doing same (for example Scorpene Deal). As Russia is a time tested friend India can discuss and negotiate to some extenct..
2) The thing, which is a worry, is life-cycle cost and safety record of Russian equipments...

So Mig35 can fulfills all criteria’s laid by IAF and it proves about safety and reliability, Mig35 has good chances of wining…..

Although cost of Rafael is 120 Mn.. I am not sure about whether this is includes life-cycle cost.... And if there is no significant difference with that of Mig 35, then Rafael also has a fair chance of winning...

Anonymous said...

More number of SU-30MKI's may not neccessarily mean that a single engined fighter will win the MMRCA bid. LCA project is already delayed therefore the IAF has no other option but to order more aircraft till it gets the new MMRCA's.But if they settle for a twin engined plane then who knows even the Eurofighter or the Rafale can win

NJS said...

Most of the people selected french jets , due to no american products in it and best service/ ToT from france .

As per Eurofighter is seems to have electronic warfare air /ground ,which can be supported by Phalcon Awacs .

F-16 -Israel's weapon python/derby
proven technology in real time warfare , one of the lowest bid with AESA radar. disadvantage : ToT not 100% , Sanctions/ no future modifications allowed without USA help.

Rafale - Perfect supporting with TOT including source code . Mica & Metorer will be perfect combination. Disadvantage - Price .

Saab Gripen : one of the very best jet , which have takeoff in normal road itself . we have the option to select weapons for gripen its main advantage , better price / better service support . Disadvantage : Doubtful in 100% ToT , due to US components .

Eurofighter : True electronic warfare with super cruise tech / Metorer AAM. India can be partnered , better ToT . Disadvantage : Price .

Mig-35 : 100 % ToT / Longer range AAm 's . india already have mig sevice lines . if india selects US jet in MMRCA , their may some changes in deep friendship between two countries .
Russia selected India by avoiding china in 5th Gen fighter deal. chinese su30 mkk is inferior to indian Mki version . russia supported india better then china in all aspects .

F-18 : one of the best AESA radar in world , next to F-22/F-35 . Boeing as offered its latest Harpoon missile to india. Short takeoff / proven tech . Definitely have sharp edge against chinese J-10 series jets. Disadvantage : Sanctions.

in case of war with china , russia could stand neutral , but india need better supporting like US ( eventhough USA/india is not cold war ally , only possible if we like or not we need strong support like USA in future war with china or china pak vs india . india has strength to defeat pakistan not china . China seems to be 3 times more powerful (weapons inventory )
than india . even though we have problems with dragons , india is not willing go for / get (RUS) longer range ballistic missile(8000) which touches Beijing .

Anonymous said...

honestly, as long as the F-16 isn't chosen, i won't be too upset. i just want to see this done, asap. around when can we hope for an official announcement?
i voted for the Rafale, though i was surprised, i must admit to it being so popular. i think it must have something to do with your write-up. i would have gone with the Super Hornet, but i remembered that bit about it being a "naval aircraft." i can't really know the merit of that assessment, but if it is significant, then the Hornet is a no-go. I voted for the Rafale in the end, despite its off-the-shelf price, with hopes that it would even out over the life-cycle.

Anonymous said...

In BRAZIL poll Rafale also win!
Qual será o caça escolhido no Projeto FX-2?
Selecionar Enquete

Qual será o caça escolhido no Projeto FX-2?
Dassault Rafale
8133 50%
Boeing F/A-18E/F
5139 31.6%
Saab Gripen NG
3004 18.5%

Número de Votos : 16276
Primeiro Voto : Dom, 09 de Novembro de 2008 23:53
Último Voto : Ter, 22 de Setembro de 2009 23:12

Anonymous said...

hello there

I highly doubt the Rafale will be sold to India at 130m$ per aircraft as i read above.
The UAE deal is a special case as they want an upgraded plane (new engines..) ,here i think you can expect a final price around 60 or 70 m$ per aircraft ...and perhaps less

Anonymous said...

Rafale and Mig35 are most suited but Mig35 would increase our dependence on russkies and that leaves only Rafale.

Rafale is most likely cheaper than Eurofighter and Rafale is not a Dud in A2G roles unlike EF.

Any traitor recommending F18/16 must be thrown behind the bars.

Gripen is good and practical but won't be supported by US.

We have already purchased P8I Poseidon worth $2 billion for whatever relations with unkil.

So Rafale all the way. Life-cycle costs HAVE TO include Strategic costs(of disadvantages in Sanctions) otherwise it is useless for decision making.

Anonymous said...

Does anybody see why Vincent's name is missing in comments?

Anonymous said...

Rafale also won the poll conducted
by Bharat Rakshak.

ivan said...

i dont trust americans , they r planning to tranfer tech only at limited as approved by the U.S governing body, U.S is also supplying arms and aid to pakistan and also has close tie with pakistan. They support pakistan more than india, we cannot guarantee U.S because they can sanctioned technolgy transfer to india anytime and that will affect our air force team in the future, england is also close ally of U.S, so contract of typhoon is also does not deserves for india, they will go with U.S way; rafale and Mig-35 are the only option, that india should take it, and it should upgrade its defence establishment border securing china and pakistan without any delay as they can counter strike india at any moment and should always be prepared.

Anonymous said...

It will be interesting to find out why so many people have voted for Rafale. It should be noted that the Rafale is in a different category (weight, mission profile etc), strictly speaking from an MRCA Rfp perspective. Acknowledged that the French are not fussy about tech transfer like americans but their products are sufficiently priced higher to justify this approach. In fact the Brazilian order that President Lula announced with much fanfare with his french counterpart Sarkozy was somewhat contradicted by FAB the Brazilian air force. All in all, not a fan of Rafale, purely from the Rfp perspective.

Anonymous said...

India needs supermarine spitefires.

Anonymous said...

f-16 is the best for india.it is single engined,aesa radar,reliable and will get some israeli avionics. and will remain in service for another 25 years and it is cheapar in price and low cost of maintenamce.though pukis has got it already but dont forget russia and france also sold su-30 and mirage to china and pakistan along with india.

NJS said...

I don't think the jets will be selected as per real value /stuff of fighter . As per politically & US pressure / 1962 type problem from dragons , will lead india to go for F-18 . Only fighter which china/pak don't have/cannot be purchased directly is f-18. but most of us like russian / western type jets only, due to we faced sanctions from USA .
1. If india selecting western fighters their will be no disappointment from USA / russia.
2. if india selects either russian or USA fighters , their may be total disappointment from other country (Russ/US).

Due to USA will not transfer full TOT , india can place order Mig-35 (126nos with TOT ) + F-18 (80 nos without TOT, as per current problems which india faces from neighbors and also we could stop high depletion in IAF, This may lead a strong supporting from both the Gaints .

Anonymous said...

Friends ,

Mig 21's are falling out of the skies and we are discussing politics. We demand an immediate,urgent and intermediate solution of at least 5 squardrons of replacements to keep up the min strength. Tragically LCA is a dud and shall remain a dud . So we accept our failing and place an order for Gripen or Mig 29SMT/OVT or 50 percent each. The MMRCA can take its own everlasting course. The way things are going we shall have to use AN 32/IL 76 or C17 for Air Combat

Anonymous said...

shiv, i just noticed on facebook that it is your birthday today. HAPPY BIRTHDAY SIR!!!

Vivek said...

Hi Shiv! Ignore the cynics. Your poll was interesting. Doesn't need to have a higher purpose.

With regard to the Rafale, I believe most of its fans are mistaken in their belief that the Rafale by virtue of having entered service after the Superhornet, will have more new orders and have a longer shelf life.

Rafale : 120 ordered (70 delivered)
Superhornet : 500+ ordered (400+ delivered)

The munitions carried aboard the Shornet are also better, usually longer ranged and very importantly cheaper than the French alternatives.

The Shornet is arguably stealthier and India can include the F-18G Growler EW aircraft in its order.

As far as upgrade potential goes, with the upwards of 30 squadrons projected to be operating this, I have more faith in the USN's capacity(thanks to their financial muscle) than the Armée de l'Air and Aéronavale despite being fine modern services that they are.
Already, a third block for the Shornet has been proposed with forward stealth and range, in particular, going through a significant upgrade. Also, the Shornet will probably have a more mature production line

To those apprehensive about the political dimensions of an order from the US, well India was always the first choice for the US as a regional ally. It was Pt.Nehru and Indira Gandhi, with their socialist and communist policies who pushed India towards the USSR. In any case, the IAF's and Defence Ministry's views on the particular topic are evident from the order of the P-8, C-130 and the present evaluation of the E-2D.

With regard to the Gripen and Eurofighter, the Gripen overlaps the LCA's intended capabilities and role far too much. And the Eurofighter, while otherwise the best fighter in the fray, isn't as economical(though the IAF is probably in a better position to judge).

Going for the MiG-35 would grant Russia a monopoly which going by recent developments is not a good idea. That said if the defence ministry sticks to the rules and picks the cheapest qualifying aircraft, its the most likely to win.

And that's my opinion.


Anonymous said...

When the tech queries are not responded by the firm properly, the nations interest is at stake, as this is highly contributes to the preparedness of the fleet.

Anonymous said...

For such an avid Rafale watcher, how come you missed the crash of two aircraft and the fact that the Brazilians rolled back the over enthusiasm of their President? Or did I miss them in the blog?

Anonymous said...

Hi all.

First: ask the Algerian about MiG's planes quality...

Second: Wich country can offer an AESA operational and its technology?

RAFALE is the solution for India!

Anonymous said...

Two rafale jets crashed. You dont comment on it. Why?

Anonymous said...

what is there to comment on a crash?

WGP said...


Anonymous said...

Most of them were spot on possible rafale selection then, it's good finally ended that way