Saturday, November 21, 2009

Indian Navy Contemplating Brit Carrier?



You couldn't have missed the buzz in the British press about the UK receiving a firm "expression of interest" from India to purchase the UK's second (still under construction) super-carrier, the HMS Prince Of Wales, the second of the Queen Elizabeth-class 65,000-ton carriers. More on this soon, stay tuned.

39 comments :

NJS said...

India should official confirm this order/news , if india selects 5th gen navel aircraft for this carrier its could be knife of neck to our neighbors .

Vijay said...

The first animated photo appears to show F-35 on the deck.

Imagine the Mig-29K,s and Tejas on the deck instead!

I wonder if we can install Brahmos on the carrier.

Anonymous said...

Hi Shiv
I follow your blog religiously everyday.
Why have the images started downloading instead of opening up??
Great blog, btw

Love it

Shiv Aroor said...

anon: can't figure it out myself! looking for solution. just happened..

Anonymous said...

make the gorshaCOW run for its grass!

Anonymous said...

The new carrier even at a price tag much more then that of Ghroshkov would be a much better buy. Like the Viraat , this will easily give us 50+ years in service (unlike Ghroshkov which is "claimed" to have about 30 years of service life left). Being a 60k + tonne carrier IN can operate bigger aircrafts and mayb E-3 awacs which is a must for a modern carrier and in all likelyhood close to 50+ aircrafts. Gettin a second hand carrier with single take off strip and 14-20 planes and no awacs is a bad idea..it would the biggest , most potential and lightly armed target for pakis in any conflict..
better to cancel ghroshkov and focus on the indigenous carrier and other modern ones.. IN can live 3-4 years with Viraat's as sole carrier till indegenous ones come up and soon we can have the new brit..

Anonymous said...

Looks like a good choice..IN should focus on carrier and LPD's that have enough punch to open a front on Paki coastline if they do any mischief over the land border.

This carrier is also more in line with what the chinese are trying to build and can compete with them better..

Anonymous said...

This is a trick by the Brits. To prevent our own industry from growing, they are selling us theirs.

We should build our own after we get the details about this ship.

Vijay said...

Some images are opening the browser and other images -randomly- are asking to be downloaded or saved instead.

Varun said...

Didn't India's naval doctrine move away from the use of the super and normal aircraf-carriers to smaller aircraft carriers... what we call ADS (Air Defense Ships)?

How do these rumours fit into the new doctrine?

Murali said...

Damn right... did not miss that news. Is that true that there is a "FIRM expression of interest". We will need two carriers with Admiral gorshkov and this one..with the current one retiring...

will keep tabs on this one :))..

-Murali

Anonymous said...

i doubt india would go for this one..but u never know though...just one question...From the pictures it looks like its fitted with a ski-jump...can this be converted to a CATOBAR system...i heard indiannavy was interested in the E2D Hawkeye...doesn't the E2D require a CATOBAR system for launch...is this the reason y india is interested in this?

Anonymous said...

I will say rather than wait for the British carrier for another term and then in the end it will create issues like Gorshkov. So its better to go for Indian built carrier may be with French or British design altered to suit the Indian requirements and also with nuclear propulsion.

Karupaswamy said...

Curious! Did the british start the construction of the carrier without having a customer in mind?

Now that we have the capability to design and build such platforms indigenously we should not ship several thousand crores of our tax money to buy some floating junk from a foreign nation.

Somnath said...

Wll the Guardian says its £2 billion future carrier of the QE class. We should surely go for it. Vikrant and Viraat fas served us well !!!

Anonymous said...

hey no ramp based carriers,catapult based are better....

Anonymous said...

Carriers without nuclear power plants are just show pieces for posturing during peace times. During war they are a liability since they do not have meaningful endurance for high tempo operations.

We would be better served with more submarines, mine laying (and removing) ships and ICBMs.

Anonymous said...

I say scrap the Gorshkov and go with this one... christen this the Vikramaditya instead!

For reasons of integrity, we should scrap the Gorshkov deal. If we don't, every arms vendor out there is going to try and take advantage of India from now on.

Don't you guys see this? Integrity in defence procurement is very important. How are you going to clean up the country, if you let the big fish get away? Gorshkov must be scrapped, even if it means we will have no carrier until the ADS arrives.

Read this BTW:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/17/carriers_now_for_india/

Tejaswy said...

Use fire fox dudes....I am having no problems.

Sancho said...

Don't fall in a hype guys, because bigger alone don't mean more capable!
The important question at the moment is, what take off and landing config would this carrier have?
UK planed STOVL (short take off, vertical landing). If IN would take this, it is clear that we have no other choice than to take F35B, because it is the only fighter capable to land vertically.
If the carrier would have a short take off, but arrested landing config (STOBAR) like Gorshkov, or Vikrant class carriers, N-LCA, Mig 29K and a navalised FGFA would be options.
The last option would be to take the catobar config (catapult take off, but arrested landing). This would mean IN could operate F18SH, Rafale and F35C, so clearly more capable fighters than N-LCA, or Mig 29Ks. Also FGFA could be navalised to start from such carriers too and if we keep in mind, that this carrier is expected only around 2018, it would fit in the timeframe of FGFA too.

Imo with Gorshkov and Vikrant class medium class carriers with average N-LCAs, Mig 29Ks and Ka 31 AEW helicopters, IN must go for a bigger and way more capable carrier in future. The better the carrier aircrafts, the better the carrier will be and the best performance can only be achieved by a CATOBAR carrier with next gen fighters and a long range AWACS aircrafts.
If the navy can get such a carrier it must be in the same CATOBAR config that the french wants and we must make FGFA able to start form such a carrier, anything else would be a waste of money!

Anonymous said...

So that makes it three aircraft carriers for the IN in 5-7 yrs time.
1. INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov)
2. INS Vikrant (ADS)
3. INS V ?? (Prince of Wales)

The second ADS was supposed to be 65,000 tons. Now this british carrier is of a similar weight.

Is it possible that India has been talking to the brits about getting the Invincible and the british press has gone overboard or misinformed that the Prince of Wales is what was discussed?

Shiv is there any news from a chaiwalla on this?

Anonymous said...

Building an aircraft carrier is a complex piece of enginnering and except US (which has a fleet of 10 supercarriers and numberous smaller ones), few have mastered it.
Work on the indigenous carrier should be supported and appriciated but is bound to have shortcomings in first attempts. The result could be underpowered, relativly lightly armed or hazerdeous ship. Some of these issues were even faced by French navy with its Nuclear powered Charles De Gulla. Its challanging an costly to fix these issues in 40k+ tonne ship and most likely be brushed under carpet. However end result is a carrier that puts more hours in Dry docks then open sea which would be a disaster. Thats why IN went in with Ghroshkov but the challanges Russians are facing with Ghroshkov should be taken as a lesson ..carrier operation/maintainence/manufacturing is complex and expensive proposition. Furthermore even if we get Ghroshkov, Russians dont have the orignal design of the Carrier(they are supposidly in Ukraine where the carrier was made and lost when Soviet navy was split up) and maintainence would be complex and we would be dependent on them for it without the design. Its time to be prudent and not follow a penny wise pound follish approach by putting all stake in indigenous carriers or a carrier whose designs are missing and already caused so many technical problems for orignal manufacturer. The Brits have decent navel expertise and are trying to rope in the French in their Carrier devlopment plans. If India joins in the cost overall would be lowered and we would get hands on futuristic carrier and designs which can serve us well..Cost wise its mush better to put $3.3 bn in a 65k+ tonne carrier then $2.9 bn that is attached for 44k tonne Groshkov which will be 25+ yrs old if we get it..

AKS said...

India should buy this and also negotiate with Russians so the navy's plan of having 3 carriers-one for each coast and one on standby will come true after we get our indigenous carrier by 2015

Anonymous said...

Confusing. We already have gorshkov and 2 more air defence ships are in pipeline. why should we go for more?
Its not cheap 2 operate more

I think this is probably a false news

Anand@Trichy said...

we will buy it or build the second ADS in 60k+ ton in nuclear tech is a great option for our navel defense i think

Anonymous said...

I think this depends on RN ditching the second carrier which is probable but unlikely.

Anonymous said...

Indians trying to show off again, like gold teeth and upmarket Tatas. Please, before you buy a carrier from the Europeans, define your naval doctrine and try not to have a different class for every ship. This is the Russian sickness, not seeing the military as a sustainable, self evolving force, but a set of variables to fling at the enemy in one stroke and exhaust. That way, you don't have to worry about parts supply, maintenance cost and cross training.

It is also a doctrine that believes itself to fail.

Anonymous said...

@AKS
How many coasts does India has ?

There are only 2 coasts eastern and western. Southern one (doesn't exists anyway) is too narrow which can be guarded with a OPV !!!.

Vin said...

By reading above views, one thing is certain from most :

Indian Navy need to go for Indigenous Aircraft Carrier

I too wish for Indigenous ones as it makes our men to explore the new technology and attain self reliance.

Top bosses of IN or IAF or IA should look at very own ISRO who first flew rocket by transporting by a bullock cart and now are reaching Moons with glory of Indigenous Technology and Self reliance Success..

Without ISRO's efforts 200+ channels in Indian Satellite Tv industry including that of Headlines Today may have been non-existent today.

Somnath said...

Queen Elizabeth class future aircraft carriers can be confugired in both CATOBAR and STOBAR configurations .... we can use in STOBAR config for our naval aircrafts.

The specs are:

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvf/

the terminator said...

Before we talk about 3 aircraft carriers, let us get the ADS done on a fast track basis. As it is though the ADS is being built on a modular basis, the built rate is absurdly slow. At this pathetic rate the ADS might only be inducted into the navy some time in 2016.

Let us not be too optimistic about the induction of the rust bucket, Gorshkov. It will come when the Russians have had their pound of flesh and more. Since they are pretty sure that we are desperate, they will come up with more and more price negotiations until we will give in out of desperation.

While we talk and talk about aircraft and aircraft carrier acquisition, the Chinese are quickly building up their fleet to challenge the IN in its backyard, the Indian Ocean Region.

Why can't we be more action oriented than be constantly affected verbal diarroea?

Anonymous said...

A nuke carrier would be far better.

Sancho said...

To those who prefer a nuclear carrier, please don't forget that an aircraft carrier is only a part of the carrier group. Its endurance is not only limited by it's own propulsion, but by the propuslion of escort destroyers and frigats too!
That means only because the carrier has a nuclear propulsion, it doesn't mean that it will run faster, or to longer distances without the escort ships.
Even the French Navy considers this Queen Elizabeth class in a CATOBAR config without a nuclear propulsion, although their current Charles de Gaulle carrier has one.

If IN really will buy one of these, I bet it will have the same config like the French carrier.

captainjohann said...

British equipment. what a waste? Our coast guard doesnot have enough patrol vessels (only 75 for a coastline of 2000 miles )but we buy things which does NOT even impress Srilankan navy who kill our fishermen. Pakistan has midget subs which can take on these ugly behemoths like a jaguar killing an elephant.

sumit said...

Anonymous said...

Hi Shiv
I follow your blog religiously everyday.
Why have the images started downloading instead of opening up??
Great blog, btw

Love it

Shiv Aroor said...

anon: can't figure it out myself! looking for solution. just happened..

Vijay said...

Some images are opening the browser and other images -randomly- are asking to be downloaded or saved instead.
------------------
Hi All,

Use FireFox or Chrome to avoid such issues.

IE is just a crap with more hype as Adm. Cockroach AC ;)

Anonymous said...

India would be better advised to concentrate its resources on acquiring more conventional cruise missile firing submarines and ATV's, instead of this white elephant.

Anonymous said...

Why not having Sea Gripen? I read an article at Janes that Saab is answeing a RFI from the Indian Navy.Apparently they have a navalised Gripen program. Looking nice on the picture to even if it is an illustration.

Anonymous said...

Carriers will soon be a thing of the past thanks to the Chinese developement of Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles. These missiles can be launched from 3000km away from land bases (and possibly submarines in the near future). So in the end Aircraft Carriers will just be huge targets unless they care surrounded with sufficient anti-missile screens, and even then it would be pretty hard to shoot down a ballistic missile that is falling at you staight down from the sky at many times the speed of sound. Here's a few qoutes from Wikipedia:

"Only one ASBM is currently in operation. China has successfully developed and tested the DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile, with a range of up to 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi) or more, in 2005, according to the US Department of Defense. Other analysts are less sure that China has sufficient technical capability for an accurate ASBM system. The DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile is expected to enter active service by 2009."

"The US Department of Defense has stated that China is developing a high hypersonic land-based anti-ship ballistic missile based on the DF-21, with a range of up to 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi). These would combine manoeuvrable reentry vehicles (MaRVs) with some kind of terminal guidance system. Such a missile may have been tested in 2005-6, and the launch of the Jianbing-5/YaoGan-1 and Jianbing-6/YaoGan-2 satellites would give the Chinese targeting information from SAR and visual imaging respectively. The upgrades would allow China to employ the missile to launch attacks on US Navy aircraft carriers."

Anonymous said...

The British will now keep the second Queen Elizabeth Class carrier as they have switched to STOBAR for both.

Nuclear carriers are over-rated. The British have nuclear ship technology (and use this on their submarines) but do not believe carriers benefit from it. Submarines are small ships that operate alone - so having long endurance is useful and makes sense. But carriers are limited by the need for a large surface fleet of diesel ships and the need for regular resupply of enough food to feed 1500 crew. So what do they really gain from a nuclear reactor? Since the British don't even need steam (because they won't be using catapults) why should they build a nuclear carrier? Just because its got nuclear technology on it doesn't make it better.

IN missed a big oppourtunity to jump into an ultra-modern carrier capability with the Queen Elizabeth Class. Instead IN will now be stuck with whatever rubbish the indigenous program makes or whatever russia supplies.