Wednesday, July 28, 2010

Hawk Redux -- "Al Yamma Yamma"? :)

42 comments :

Ra said...

Britain is sliding down under the pressure of Industrial recession, so this order is of paramount interest to them.

Hope India would have been wise enough to take the financial advantage out of this situation like the erstwhile British East India Co. Lol...

Anonymous said...

Yamma Yamma...yamma yamma..yeh khoobsurat samaa...bas aaj ki raat hai zindagi, kal hum kahan, tum kahan??

Deepak said...

Actually, this might be just sound commercial sense prevailing finally on BAE's side. BAE might have thought does it save 10 million pounds in claims by rejecting HAL's complaints or does it accomodate HAL and secure an order worth 100 times that. Yes turnaround is stunning. One hopes that HAL has secured its main objectives.

faultybydesign said...

Shiv, could you tell us how exactly did HAL patchup with BAe. Did the British agree to provide new tools and fixtures?

Anonymous said...

There is a huge volume of business opportunity in India, it's just that a company should spread margin over volumes.

Anonymous said...

@ Ra

According to BBC this extra order will help secure 200 jobs in UK.

That is 200 extra jobs, so i fail to see how this order helps pull out UK from Recession.

Most weapons contracts (still today) are done on the back of black money provided to the right people (both in India and UK).
If you follow BAE systems conduct you will see that they spare no effort in cheating the UK tax payer (ala the scandal of ship contracts to eastern european countries)

a saudi said...

How much aid does UK give to india?

something like $1.4 billion over the next three years for being poor. Indiacan't do al yammma, it lives on aid.

Anonymous said...

I simply dont understand why do we need 273(150 + 123) trainers for a force with roughly 580 fighter/bombers? There is something quite fishy in this entire deal.

Besides this we have our own AJT program, why splurge on foreign jets?

Isn't it far more cheaper to train pilots on simulators rather than real jets which burn costly aviation fuel when crude prices are 80$ a barrel (projected to spike upto 200$ a barrel)?

Anonymous said...

@a saudi

It's you people who are thriving on western charity. The day they stop purchasing oil, you are finished.You don't have the brains, skills or energy to run a country.No wonder the Israelis screw you all so regularly.

It's Indian and other expat's brains and brawns that's running Arab countries.

Britain gives 250 million $ as aid to India which it plans to cut down as India is now considered to be "rich". Btw, aid is not donation. It's more like interest free loan which will have to be paid back to donor country. Often it's a means to force other countries to buy your product.

Here's the link of that article:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/UK-likely-to-cut-foreign-aid-to-rich-India/articleshow/6155156.cms

Gautam said...

Anon@ 5:16PM, Do you think IAF was desperately pushing for the 200+ Hawk trainers for over 20 years out of desire for bribes? Like you said, you DON'T UNDERSTAND.

HAL's HJT-36 trainer is a replacement for the Kiran basic trainer. It does not fulfil the role of an AJT that IAF needs for end-stage training for its fighter pilots.

And the IAF, in the long run, needs a squadron of over 900 fighter-bombers to properly safeguard our borders from Pakistan and China. 200+ trainers is understandable in the long run.

Lastly, simulators are often more expensive than actual jets and lack many of the benefits of flying a real plane. For example the MiG-29K simulator for the Indian Navy costs 10 times as much to operate as the MiG-29KUB trainer aircraft.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 5.16

Good question-but the numbers are slightly off. So, IAF has 350 fighters today (120 SU-30 MKI, 56 M2K, 63 MIG 29's, 125 MIG-21's). Add the 125+ Jaguars to this. The total comes to 475 odd frontline aircraft.

By 2020, IAF would have 750 frontline fighters
(280 SU-30 MKI, 56 M2K, 63 MIG 29's, 126 MRCA, 100+ LCA, 50 FGFA,). Note that 126 MRCA & 50 FGFA might not be fully built by 2020-but the RFP momentum is pretty solid as of today, same goes for the 50 FGFA aircraft. Add the 125 Jaguars (guess they will not retire before 2025)and we have close to 900 attack jet aircraft.

So the IAF taking a 2020 game scenairo would need 100 odd jet trainers (HAWK) and another 100 Intermediate Jet Trainers (Sitara).

Anonymous said...

congress is draining this country down the sh*& hole.. its not pakisthan that will be a failed nation.. it will be india ...

i give india a max of 5-10 yrs..before this shi& hole goes up in flames....

Anonymous said...

I think it is code for similarities with the BA deal with the Saudis. Someone made a ton of money here. It was Al Yammamah or something like that. It's got nothing to do with the song ;-)

Anonymous said...

@anon 5:16
First of all it isnt 273. Its 66+57=123.
Secondly we have our own IJT program which is quite different from an AJT. Besides the IJT-16 Sitara is still undergoing trials and has not been inducted.
Get your facts correct.

Anonymous said...

What does 700 million buy?

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jul/29/dr-singh-cameron-send-tough-message-to-pak.htm

steep price for a 'message'

Anonymous said...

@Gautam
Do you know the cost of aviation fuel? Since you UNDERSTAND everything so well, what is the cost of operating one simulator vis-a-vis that of an AJT? Can you give me the financial breakup of operating the two?

Trainers are meant to train new pilots. It has no role for experienced pilots.An airforce that has 900 combat ACs, ideally how many trainers will it require to train new pilots? You need 200 trainers for 900 combat ACs? In other words two trainers for every 9 jets or roughly 1 trainer for every 5 combat jets? Doesn't this ratio looks odd to you?It seems there are too many pilots being trained and not enough jets!

Anonymous said...

@Gautam

It seems you have no knowledge about BAE paying bribes to get defense contracts. The UK Govt. had to bail out BAE from their own authorities.

Anonymous said...

@ Saudi

Man, this is pure comedy. A nation that gets to eat selling its oil, having no capabilities in any industry whatsover (sorry rearing camels or doing something to the rear of a camel does not count as an industry) has the galls to ask how much aid does India get from UK?

So, how many wives do you have and what's the latest in the perfumes that you apply to the rear of camels?

Gautam said...

Mr. Anonymous has gotten defensive at being called out on his lack of knowledge.

The info about simulators vs A/C came from an old article I read on the delivery of the MiG-29K state-of-the-art simulator to the Indian Navy; I'll see if I can find it now. And frankly, fuel prices are an overrated excuse. They make up only a fraction of a military fighter's operating cost.

And what if BAE systems is corrupt? Is that uncommon or taboo in India? I bet half the ministers in our government are corrupt, should we blacklist them? Once you weed out all the people willing to pay bribes there's no one to left to buy from. Witness the artillery fiasco. Do you want that for our air force so you can hear more reports about pilots crashing on obsolete planes?

Anonymous said...

Bilateral aid which is mostly 'tied' aid must be spent in country providing the aid.

This allows politicians in donor countries to 'help' campaign donors.

Anonymous said...

Guyz IJT SITARA is a completely differnt aircraft which falls under intermediate training and AJT is further stage... Now @ saudi ,who's not actully 1 bt porki who usally feel ashamed by deir own country name to mention...

Ra said...

Anon @12:48 PM

Those 200 jobs in UK may be for the Royals. There may be thousands of commoners behind them. Such contracts affect the overall economy and not only to a limited segment.

Anonymous said...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-10782263

saudi said...

India has more poor than the whole of sub-saharan Africa....and you are considered rich? for what being rich in beggers!!!!

Saudi has many f**ked up things....but go there now and you will see how much industry there is....especially high tech...we are not like you guys, we attempt something that has already been done by everyone....and start shouting at our success. Oil and its products are sold by us...you don't have to buy it....but the way things are going we will make even more money...america is the power behind israel.

Anonymous said...

@Saudi

I know you are a poor filthy Porky laborer toiling in some Saudi construction site, envious of India's giant strides.

What is the population of Sub Saharan Africa? More than 1/6 of the world's population resides in India. India has a larger middle class than USA! A fact publicly acknowledged by George Bush.We have 300 million middle class which is one of the world's largest and which is fueling India's economy unlike China which is largely dependent on exports. Hence, while China and the rest of the world got battered in the current recession, India was hardly effected by global events.This speaks volumes about how robust India's economy is. It wasn't effected by the South East Asian economic crisis during 1990s.

All those industries in Saudi Arabia is no bulwark against Peak Oil scenario.

What other raw materials do you have apart from dates and hydrocarbon products? To set up advanced industries you need raw materials and skilled workers. Saudi Arabia has neither of the two.
The Oil and it's byproducts are sold by Saudi Aramco a Saudi and American joint venture. This company is Saudi for the name sake as nearly all the employees are Americans who live in a walled city where no Saudis are allowed.

For high tech industries again you need brains. How many quality education institutes are there in Saudi Arabia? Even for the most simplest jobs you need expats.

The way things are going i.e. petrol reaching sky high prices which is severely effecting global economy, pretty soon there will be a cheaper and cleaner alternative to petrol, like water.Scientists think water can act as fuel for spacecrafts. Pretty soon we are gonna find out a way to use it as a fuel.If that happens you are fu&ked.
Hydrocarbon is again a non renewable source of energy. It isn't a well nourished by rain water. The more we use, the faster it gets depleted. There will be a time when oil wells will run dry. Estimates of that vary from next 50 to 100 years.
America supported Israel only after 1970s. Israel has a very healthy economy supported by it's affluent and very competent diaspora. Something we can't say about the Arabs.
Finally India has discovered water in the Moon and by the end of this decade plans to send manned mission to Moon. Can Saudi Arabia dream of such projects? With such huge amounts of petro $s, what have you achieved??? Osama Bin laden??

Anonymous said...

@Saudi

More than 1/6 of the world's population resides in India. India has a larger middle class than entire population of USA! A fact publicly acknowledged by George Bush.Our 300 million middle class is fueling India's economy unlike China which is largely dependent on exports. Hence, while China and the rest of the world got battered in the current recession, India was hardly effected by global events. This speaks volumes about how robust India's economy is. It wasn't effected by the South East Asian economic crisis during 1990s.

All those industries in Saudi Arabia are no bulwark against Peak Oil scenario.

What other raw materials do you have apart from dates and hydrocarbon products? To set up advanced industries you need raw materials and skilled workers. Saudi Arabia has neither of the two.
Your Oil and it's byproducts are sold by Saudi Aramco a Saudi and American joint venture. This company is Saudi for the name sake as nearly all the employees are Americans who live inside a walled city where no Saudis are allowed.

For high tech industries again you need brains. How many quality education institutes are there in Saudi Arabia? Even for the most simplest jobs you need expats.

The way things are going i.e. petrol reaching sky high prices which is severely effecting global economy, pretty soon there will be a cheaper and cleaner alternative to petrol, like water.Scientists think water can act as fuel for spacecrafts. Pretty soon we are gonna a way to use it as a fuel.If that happens you are fu&ked.
Hydrocarbon is again a non renewable source of energy.The more we use, the faster it gets depleted. There will be a time when oil wells will run dry. Estimates of that vary from next 50 to 100 years.
America supported Israel only after 1970s. Israel has a very healthy economy supported by it's affluent and very competent diaspora. Something we can't say about the Arabs.
Finally, India has discovered water on the Moon and by the end of this decade plans to send manned mission to Moon. Can Saudi Arabia dream of such projects? With such huge amounts of petro $s, what have you achieved??? Osama Bin laden??

Anonymous said...

@Gautam,

It's you who is making personal attacks.

Btw, you have failed to answer my queries.
It seems you have no knowledge about aviation or petroleum industry. Every rise in aviation fuel prices jacks up cost of air travel. This leads to higher operation cost and lower number of passengers.Therefore planes have to fly without optimum number of passengers which leads to massive loss.
When crude prices reached 150$ a barrel, it bankrupted almost all major international airlines.
Britain and all major powers are increasingly using simulators to train their pilots. Of course it's not as good as the real thing but it's the best alternative.

You think, that since corruption is rife in India, anyone can come and rob us? Just bcoz casteism is rampant in India it's perfectly OK to racially attack/abuse Indians. Since lower caste ppl were or still not allowed inside temples hence the British were justified in hanging "Dogs and Indians not allowed" signs in public places?

Anonymous said...

700 million dollars for Camerons cooperation. Lol, HAL has been complaining about BAE failure in honoring contract, in turn BAE said something similiar.

The Egyptians were right to offer K-8s.

Gautam said...

Anon 6.26, you seem to be one of those loud-mouthed, perpetually angry armchair jingos from BRF.

Where are those allegations(let alone proof) of BAE bribery in INDIA? If you're talking internationally, just about every major company gets these allegations from time to time. Even Indian defence PSUs get accused of corruption and ulterior motives.

And with your attitude on corruption, why aren't you instead railing to jail 90% of our politicians instead? Why selectively target things like this which does more harm than good?

Gautam said...

Lastly, Anon, the trainer requirements were put forward by the IAF after DECADES of studies and appeals to the government. You think it's too much? That it's unnecessary? Or that HAL's IJT(which by its very definition is not an AJT) is enough? Well, it so happens that you are an armchair specialist who never have and never will truly know the needs and requirements of the IAF, nor any actual privileged technical information such that they have. Neither do I, but unlike you I know better than to shoot of my mouth and insult their intelligence based on my vastly inferior knowledge.

Anonymous said...

@Gautam
Please do not give complimentary points by your perverse logic to inefficiency. You are using the technique of compounding inactivity by assigning merit to tardiness. I have no desire to offer examples because they are not required.
It is people like you that have ruined India and will absolve their sins by attributing cogent reasons behind it. Our nation is in an extreme mess appart from getting sorry crumbs of Information Technology - you will not believe it - It is I who you all are making those dollars off. Yes!
There is no area where we are not getting technology from abroad - wherever we can steal from - and pose as intellectual giants. Those GSQR's, IAF requiremets are off brochures. I have been a keen student of military procurements in the last 15 years and not one - repeat not one is a brainchild of our military.
I go to 30 military sites, newspapers in many countries; everyday and my knowledge of military products is better than yours. Anyone can do it, I agree.
Please refrain from telling us that the military knows something more than us, strategically, economically or technically.
Please do not abuse people and call them names when you are caught with your shallow intellectual capability exposed.

Anonymous said...

@All

Are not the HAWKs aircrafts capabale of carrying missiles and bombs as part of mixed force?

More the marrier.

900 flying machines are an estimate for 2020. Why should Indians tell you today that they are actually targetting the sky itself?

HAWKs should be good for J-17 ?

Gautam said...

You go to military newspapers? Nice. But I'd still rate the ACTUAL military planners above you, the expert in armchair activisim, any day, any week, any month, any year and any century. You're no different from the likes of Carlo Kopp and Prasun Sengupta, and I hope our defence planners give you a similar level of credibility.

Gautam said...

And the 200+ trainers are a long-term procurement. IJT is years from IOC and new Hawks will also take years to build.

Anonymous said...

@anno 7.34

You are too much friend. Going on so many sites, knowing so much, what not and what not..Uhh. So you are old haggard "mantra specialist"?

Do you become a doctor by going to so many sites? do you become engineer by reading all manuals and take over Vishwakarma ?

Look, if auntie had balls she would not be an auntie?

Do not defy logic and common sense. Leave some space for the professionals.

If you claim so much, why do not you become Air Chief?
By the way, the way trends are going on in the country, they may appoint you one, like Hitler to bring ruins to India.

Please... No stomach for further !

Anonymous said...

You have no argument excepting abusing people and a perverted attempt at convincing others.
We dreadfully need people who will highlight the lacunae in various military services rather than exult in mindless euphoria with unsubstantiated efforts. Let us celebrate true success and identify chinks in our armour at an early stage.
It is people like you who propelled Arjun Tank on the successful trajectory. Our entire missile systems have been put to the microscope by posters like you.
We have had successes but the military has not played its part diligently. Its coming around e.g. the proposed indigenization of the artillery gun.
It is a serious question why Tejas is not creating a AJT version. The more light posters can shed on it, the better.
I dont think I am being absurd or ridiculous about it. Prasun DasGupta is a good Indian... I wish him well. I am not like him and I do not take your attempt to insult me in this fashion kindly.

Gautam said...

And you have no argument except 'BELIEVE WHAT I SAY IS TRUE BASED ON XXX CREDENTIALS' followed by abusing the credentials of whomsoever you're trying to convince. 'If you can't make a convincing argument, try to make a convincing arguer' That is your modus operandi, and that's what's truly perverted.

As for 'missile systems' I remember reading a report from an IAF official lamenting how the Indian armed forces were limited in their ability to talk to the media and appeal in public, because of which they were forced by the MoD and DRDO heads to consistently label its tests as successed despite the reality on the ground being quite different. That's why it took so long for induction even after DRDO heads boasting to the media about how it was ready.

Same with Trishul, which DRDO remained dishonest about right until the end, with actual details on the defects of the programme not being available till it ended. Our armed forces have good reasons for what they do, even if they may not be allowed to communicate those to the general public.

Gautam said...

Note: In my previous post, the second paragraph was referring to the Akash missile, which took a very long time to enter operational status and even longer to be ordered in large numbers because the results of army/air force field trials were completely different from the DRDO tests(which were manipulated to give artificially high success levels).

That's why, while the army and IAF accepted Akash in the end, they also made DRDO to work with Israel for developing a new MRSAM and LRSAM.

Anonymous said...

@Gautam

It is illiterate villagers who are massacring our trained and well armed CRPF. USA is getting screwed by rag tag militias in Iraq and Afghanistan. Something which it had tasted earlier in Vietnam. So pls do not underestimate the power of "common sense".

I have still not got any info from you wrt the break up of cost of operating a simulator vis-a-vis an AJT. Your silence in this regard proves who is shooting his mouth off. I know you are someone from the armed forces trying to protect it's image which of late has got a severe battering. Your personal attacks won't stop the public from questioning when they smell a rat.

Anonymous said...

You are a pervert who will call another person a pervert. That too is part of your perverse XXX logic.
Akash is not a good missile system and if you dont know why - good! Linking up with Israel for systems in the market is also another subject for discussion. Prasun DasGupta is fodder for some people and I am not surprised you are one of them.

NAG has not been inducted and India is purchasing Javelin.

I will not make a distinction between the military and DRDO.

Akash is an enhanced version of SA-6 and China has better systems than that. The numbers of induction are woefully low. Akash has specifications belonging to another era.

Have fun praising the slowcoach, low producing military and DRDO!

Anonymous said...

This is ANON at 3:50 AM
My previous comment, what I can see presently immediately above me, unless someone comments ahead of me
ANON 3;50 AM comment was @Gautam.
Sorry for the confusion.

praneetbajpaie said...

Saudi,
I don't think I have to reply to your posts. Suitable replies have been given by my compatriots.
Just wondering what will Saudi Arabia do once all the oil gets exhausted? Guess it will go back to being a desert and Saudis will be nomads living in the desert.
A lot of money, no brains. That is what Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east is.