Saturday, August 07, 2010

TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!


Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.

Assuming these two aircraft are the only ones moving to the next level, which do you think the government should choose and why? Let's see what everyone thinks. Vote below and post your comments.

What should the Indian government choose -- Rafale or Eurofighter?

116 comments :

Anonymous said...

Go Eurofighter.

Anonymous said...

This is a hot and outstanding news !!!

Anonymous said...

is this a leaked report??or where tey just speculating??

Anonymous said...

nice selection
but
need more confirmation

Anonymous said...

Go Rafael ! ;)
...
oops sorry go RAFALE

amit said...

acha mileage kitna deti hai ???
jokes apart eurofighter should win becauses it is cheaper due euros depreciation.

Anonymous said...

I would bet on Euro Fighter to get through.

Anonymous said...

I think IAF is betting on Tejas, as they have not chosen a light fighter like the Gripen or the F-16.

rajiv said...

It looks like Typhoon offers some real great goodies in its A2A role. And IAF and Government are more interested in defensive role of IAF. And does seem that tranche 3 typhoon holds more promise than Rafale. And government wants a serious player to improve Tejas.

AESA is overrated. Also quite clear Chinese are at least 5 years behind in AESA Technology.
Looks like if you have a good A2A capability fighter , then 3 generation fighter would be able to do the trick. And moreover the upgraded mirages would be used in for the A2G role.

And it also quite obvious IAF does not fully trust Sukhoi.

spurgeon judah said...

i wud have loved to take both these aircrafts
anyway

on a scale of 10 i wud rate eurofighter -8/10
rafale -7/10


eurofighter more poised than rafale in terms of armament hardpoints and airsuperiority roles.

on political decisions too i think eurofighter wud win.

MAthi Man said...

If its between the rafale and eurofighter a new born baby can also guess it will be RAFALE.

Reason 1: Its much cheaper than eurofighter

Reason 2: We already have experience with Dassault mirage, etc from Dassault> Same goes for servicing experience too,

Binay said...

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats a Gr8 News for all Hindustanis...

But I am confident about our Selfish, Corrupted & Coward politicians. They can do anything in favour of their self interests. They wont hesitate to sacrifice IAF's interest, even if Nation's security.

May God save my Nation...

Anonymous said...

Whoever offers unconditional help in the design of engine, avionics, and airframe rework for YellSeeYea?

Anonymous said...

We have been working with the French for development of fighter engines and the results so far are not encouraging.

EADS is one of the members of EF consortium is also developing our Tejas.Apart from this, E200 engine will be superior to that of Rafale.Since there are more number of countries and companies involved in development of EF, naturally it is a superior product.India will gain a lot by way of ToT.

EF is developed by the EEC sans France. Hence, it is a political heavyweight as EEC is one of the largest trading parters of India. It is also politically the safest as F18 or Mig 35 will antagonize either USA or Russia should India choose one of them.This may not be the case with EF.
Besides this India will be roped in for development of EF particularly it's of avionics.EF will give India a quantum leap in development of state of the art jet fighters.

Anonymous said...

...also, they gotta fix problems at HAL/DRDO before dumping any more TOT related money.

private-public enterprise of whatever the solution is has to be formalised so that TOT doesn't become shelfware.

Anonymous said...

The Rafale is obviously better that EF! It has been proven in the ATLC last november. In addition it can be used by the indian navy.

GO RAFALE

Anonymous said...

Go for eurofighter....Cheaper than rafale and more powerfull than rafale.....

sudip das (sddp1968@yahoo.co.in) said...

Great News

Great Decision

Trust, Indian goverment will respect the views and opinion of the Indian Air Force .

Price of Eurofighter will be lower because of EURO depriciation and scale of production (no of aircrafts produced)

Mr. Ra said...

Perhaps Mig35 could not go far, because its selection in open market could have antagonized many.

EF and Rafale are getting the advantage of the fallen prices of Euro. Can not say how far this advantage may carry.

There is nothing much to choose between EF and Rafale. Any one of them can be selected in a blindfolded manner or by a simple toss of any coin.

EF is technologically equivalent to Mig35 and appears to have better technology than Rafale. Rafale compensates it by better access to Indian infrastructure, TOT and reliability.

EF can be helpful in a slightly better way to Tejas and AMCA.

There may be a quantum difference between the two, that EF can survive without this order, wheres it may create many problems for Rafale.

Anonymous said...

If India can sign an agreement with France govt. that French guarantee India that this aircraft will not be sold to China or Pakistan in the future then Rafale is a better choice as Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi so Pakistan may get to fly Saudi Typhoons (so now about working of this aircraft).

Secondly, Rafale can also be used in aircraft carriers

Anonymous said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#Future

could solve f18's engine issues.

Anonymous said...

More Info :

http://www.timesnow.tv/New-fighters-for-Indian-Air-Force/articleshow/4351233.cms

Klingon6 said...

Great, they have a decent aircraft, EF, and a third rate piece of crap, Rafale. I just don't understand why they eliminated the Hornet! From a capabilities perspective, no one can argue against the bang it offers! Much more powerful engines, working, first rate AESA, great record, the list just goes on! The only thing it has against it is being too good. Maybe the IAF is worried about the logistics train, though the EF should have a similar; or is it the lack of ToT? Someone please explain this irrational decision.

RAT said...

WELL DO NOT COUNT THE CHICKENS BEFORE THE EGG HATCHES LETS KEEP THE FINGERS CROSSED AND HOPE FOR THE BEST FOR THE NATION.

adheee said...

i want this fighter to be in our IAF fleet...
but i have some doubt
1) AESE rader??
2) cost factor??

Tejas said...

I think we must go with the Rafale (assuming these are the only 2 left in the competition). The IAF has dne well to look at operational requirements and seamless integration in this case. EADS is already a big concern in India working on a host of projects with HAL, NAL and ADA. Also the EJ 200 engine offer for Tejas Mark-2 is in the offing. It only makes sense to take the partnership forward.

Anonymous said...

I would speculate the Rafale, should be the front-runner. I guess it is the perfect descendant of the Mirage 2000, the initial plan to procure more of which led to the MMRCA competition as a whole.

Anonymous said...

I can bet my tomatoes that it will be the Typhoon that will rise to the top ! Since Italy and possibly the Brits are backing out of their Tranche - 3 commitments , the IAF could easily get a couple of squadrons worth in their kitty in a couple of years time at a bargain price. As far as things stand today the EF could probably end up costing far less than the Rafael. Go Typhoon !

Anonymous said...

sorry no euro fighter.....no no no

Anonymous said...

typhoon should reduce the money....

Anonymous said...

eurofighter of course and ej 200 for the lca.

Anonymous said...

Rafale, because it is an omnirole aircraft, it can destroy targets on the ground and at the same time fire air air missiles at enemy aircrafts. The AESAs for Rafale are comin out of factory this month and not in X years.

bryan.tenet said...

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees. At last my wish has come true. I sincerely believe its going to be The Typhoon. However, we need Rafael too. So let the Navy take the Rafaels. Good job IAF. Unlucky for Mig-35, Go to Hell Pakistan's friend American F-16 and F-18 with their Double Game policy.Lets pray the Babus dont spoil the show !

Abhi said...

good news.
Now select EF as it can share same engine (ej2000) with lca.
since they have not selected a light weight fighter,it shows iafs confidence on lca mk2 too

and the reason for selection is too obvious

mig-35 - just too many eggs on same basket, same as mig 29 kub

f-16 - no future offcourse, everyone started replacing it

f-18 - we don't know when next sanction will come

gripen - then why we are building LCA

this leave EF and raphale
now rafale - based on our exp with mirage upgrade hMMM!!!!!

EF - good AA capablity
if we have good air defence,
LCA and jaguars can do the rest

Rafale said...

Glad the Yanks are out. Hope the EF wins. I will be susprised if the babus at MoD do not interfere.

Anonymous said...

Great news...bye bye uncle sam...and gud bye ruskis...u shudnt have offered us a mig29 in a new skin if u were serious abt ths deal...

Anonymous said...

The Rafale dominates the Eurofighter in A2A & A2G+carrier compatibility. GO RAFALE!!!

Anonymous said...

Recently I saw report on History channel which showed typhoon has revolutionary Eye tracking technology allowing a computer to sense where the pilot's eye is looking.Therefore typhoon is best Air to Air fighter in world.
If we select typhoon for our air force it will be very disturbing for porkis & chinks

Nishant Bhatnagar said...

Ha Ha Ha I have become like "Octopus Oracle" and my two choices were "Bang On" correct. Go India Go...Go with anyone Rafale or Euro Fighter :)

Anonymous said...

Good to see American and Russian double agents are out.

Eurofighter is the best. New and modern. No access by the Chinese and the pakistani begging bowl.

Nishant Bhatnagar said...

On Second Thought...after initial excitement of my both guesses coming out to be true....We can do some "Hard Bargain" with "Euro Typhoon" (1) Commitment of UK, Germany & Italy is dwinddling for Tranche 3; so India can levearge its order and negotiate on "Price". (2) Demand for more..ask them to 100% support in development of "Kaveri Engine" for Tejas & AMCA.(3) Also, become developement partner for Trance 4 aircraft.

Anonymous said...

Eurofighter Typhoon ? Buying this overhyped piece of crap would be a BIG mistake.

In powerpoint presentations Typhoon is the best jet on earth. In the real world : -it's far too expensive to operate and its performances are lacking in key areas, -Italy and UK don't want it anymore, Germany is on the same path.
If all these countries could erase their participation to the Eurofighter Typhoon project, they would do it immediately. Let's not make the same mistake, Typhoon would swallow a BIG chunk of the military budget.

Anonymous said...

will pray to god...tat our babus should not spoil the game....typhoon is the correct one bcoz upgraded mirage will be nearer(standards) to rafale...

Anonymous said...

i am fan of F-16. its the only fighter operated by many countries. is there any other plane, with such record among the contenders?`Typhoon is a huge plane which will be an easy pray to BVR missiles by pakis.
Rafael is a doubtful case. recent indoa french excercises only mK2 was used by france. why they DIDNT FIELD RAFAEL inthe Garuda excercise? BAe has stake in typhoon!!Reverse the decision and go for F-16!!!

Abhiman said...

Just to clarify, I'm NOT the commentator named "Abhi" above.

Since the past few years, I've consistently dammned the MRCA competition, and advocated the Tejas Mark 2 for the MRCA.

Anonymous said...

Please go with Euro Fighter...Please MMS and Antony dont scrap this deal like the Bofors...Thats my only fear....Firstly F-18 was good but we cant expect Americans to transfer full TOT...But EADS are thumbs up over there...Plus EF Typhoon is closer to most 5th Gen birds as per Shiv's one last post...So the obvious choice is Euro Fighter Typhoon...Its the best in terms of Armament, engine, AESA radar, and looks too...Plus we are gonna get a lot from Europeans than from Americans who are more fussy or Russians who take a lot for granted....

Anonymous said...

All this is the media game played by Indian govt to make other contenders to offer more..how did rafale qualify as it was reported that it was disqualified from mmrca for not meeting the requirements...bcoz this obvious reason rafale was behind in advertising than the other aircrafts..french has got lot in its bucket....and for sure it will not get more...having so much learnt with mirage upgrades, scoropene deal,etc...!!!!rafale is ruled out..!!!!

Anonymous said...

I would be more interested in the armaments they carry!

Fox said...

Hilarious. Is this a serious defence portal or a bhajan mandali? Guys, please check out Bharat Rakshak. The problem is not EF or Rafale. The problem is that EADS keeps announcing that they are the winners. This is the second time around. Remember the French dont talk. So who announced that EF and Rafale won? No one. What are the sources? Bernahrdt of EADS! Isnt it time we gave IAF the credit and the MoD that any choices they make will be a studied one? And can we please advise EADS not to piss off the IAF and MoD by declaring themselves to be the winner? And will people commenting and voting take the time out to figure out that this is yet another EADS Con!

Anonymous said...

Clearly the European "offsets" are better than the others. The Swiss banks must be working overtime . Reason? Since Rafale is used only by the French and EF only by the manufacturing companies - forget Yamma Yamma - obviously these two manufacturers are more desperate for orders and clearly must have offered better sweeteners. Licence productions? Duh ! We can expect them to fall in our backyards after 10 years.

Anonymous said...

Shiv,

A serious question which i like to pose to you and our Govt.

Why do we spend Rs.42000 Crore when you(Govt) can defend our nation by talking/sending dossiers to Pakistani's whenever we had terrorist attacks???

Why not spend that money on rest of things which our nation needs??

If your answer is for defence, why not use these planes to bomb Pakistan @ a go and put an end to fear which we citizens are facing daily from Pakistani based attacks?

Anonymous said...

Stupid stuff. EADS saying they have won. Get a life guys

srrri said...

go for euro fighter take eads help from day 1 of lca tejas2 and involving mahindra,or l&t, tata make sense so that project completed in time

Anonymous said...

Eurofighter is not that good comparatively with Rafale. Power is nothing without control :)

article after Rafale vs Eurofighter exercises in Corsica:http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News&p=5016394&viewfull=1#post5016394
*The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air-to-air, the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.

*In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter.

interview with pilot:http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News&p=5055445&viewfull=1#post5055445
*During an ATLC engagement, 2 Rafale engaged, using their whole system but simulating a weapon that requires taking more risk than normal, 4 Eurofighter. The 2 Rafale killed the 4 Typhoon which used all their normal capacities, without loss.The rules of engagement were "beyond visual range".

*The rafale is extremely maneuvering and thus awesome in dogfight. For example, confronted with a Eurofighter, engaged in a within visual range combat with a neck to neck start, we know we need a few dozens of seconds to validate a 'gun kill'.

*The Eurofighter is a plane built for aerial combat and it fares worse than the Rafale, which is a versatile aircraft (air combat, bombing, reconnaissance).

Anonymous said...

Rafale is definitely the first choice in the competition, it is the only machine of the two finalists to be combat proven and navy operations capable when India will look seriously at an aircraft carrier solution. Not even speaking of the huge choice of low tech and high tech ammunitions that can be fitted along on the Rafale for any kind of mission, be it AG or AA, the airplane is truly multirole.In my opinion that's the best way India can keep an edge against its neighbors, particularly China.

Shailendra said...

Split this between both EF and Rafael, and get 100% TOT from both. Get all techs get all help get all consultation for LCA MK2. This is a great opportunity for GOI to really show that they are GOI. We need good Rajneeti here, and get all the techs, even the one they are making for future. Suck both EF and Dassault for everything. This deal and its effects can change position of INDIA in south ASIA.
I repeat, please spilt between EADS and Dassualt. Make one engine with EADS and one with SNECMA, and thats how we get tech for our future engines. Similar for AESA Radar. And yes keep a clause that if one of these will try to ditch in TOT, the other will get the loser's part. Best opportunity for INDIA to pull everything from this deal. First the technology we are struggling with

Anonymous said...

I think the IAF wants the Typhoon. They have recommended Rafale so that when the competitive bids come in, the Rafale's price will be higher than Typhoon's thus qualifying the Typhoon automatically. My guess is that what caught the eye of the IAF is the Typhoon coupled with Meteor.

Anonymous said...

As disappointing as it is that no American fighters made the short list it is not surprising. The Eurofighter seems to fit the bill not only politically but strategically and tactically. It will give the edge against the Chinese and Pakis and also allow the IAF a offensive/defensive platform from which to cultivate indigenous testbeds.

Vishal A. Shah said...

Definitely Eurofighter has a better, stronger airframe and superior avionics. Also due to the fantastic "client base", the long term servicability would never pose to be a problem for eurofighter(A hard learning from MiG 21).

Blindly trust eurofighter if it comes to rafale n eurofighter.

I have been following the Selection/purchasing process since 2002 and i think we cannot make a better choice than Eurofighter.

Viren said...

It has to be the EF....... Go Typhoon

Anonymous said...

Im just glad we haven't chosen the American fighters. The Americans have a reputation to sell outdated equipment as a way to earn even on salvage. Politically too, it would be a wake up call to the Americans who have consistently supported the pakistanis for for short term gain in afghanisatan as seen through wiki leaks..not to mention the technical problems of spare parts shotahges and technological sanctions which have been American arm wresting tool since decades.

Finally, i personally feel that both these eupopean planes are trustworty mean machines, although i feel that eaurofighter being technically superior gives us added teeth while choosing the rafale will seal the indo-french friendship and take it to the next level..

Indian politicians might ideally want to leave at least this deal clean however..

Anonymous said...

Technically, no doubt Eurojet wins from MMRCA assortment. Besides technical or political evaluations, there is the financial aspect. Eurojet is most expensive. India must choose maximum bang for it's money; technology is not the decisive factor. Americans or Russians may yet win, pending financial life-cycle negotiation, and political intervention.

Anonymous said...

I guess it would be best to select the Rafale and use the EJ 200 engine on the Tejas. The Rafale has better capabilities as a "mud mover" than the Typhoon. Further, its multi-role capability is established.

Another problem with the Typhoon is the growing disinterest of the UK, Italy, and Spain in the jet. India does not have technical capabilities to compensate for the diminishing involvement of these countries in order to develop further Tranches of the Typhoon.

Airfan said...

Without a doubt the IAF has done a superb job in evaluating the fighters in the competition.

The Rafale should be the choice It offers proven and problem free product support which the french have proven time and again. It is a mature and proven design, good radar, avionics and weapon systems.

Regarding the cost, The Indian Air Force deserves the best fighter to complete its tasks. If the Rafale meets the criteria then so be it !
In air combat there are no points for second place !

Anonymous said...

It seems USA actually wants to lose the MMRCA, as they put up very obnoxious political hurdles while overpricing rather non-fresh technology. When the next opportunity comes, hopefully USA will make a better offer and at least try to win the competition.

Comadreja said...

Yep, agree with fox. Another EADS plug for themselves. That said, Rafale is a good way to go given the IAF experience. However, it is a bit mystifying that both aircraft have had their development program starting sometime in the mid 80s and going into prototype and production in ealry 1990s. In effect, the Rafale and Typhoon, even though they went into service in the current decade, had been frozen around 1991-92. So, arent we in effect buying a fighter that was 'developed' and 'technology frozen back in 1990s? Sure, there have been incremental developments and AESA but is it serious value for money when each unit will cost plus $100 million? This looks like a scam in the making where we pick a fighter that is technologically about two decades old?

Anonymous said...

Not putting all tomatoes in single basket is fundamental to MMRCA contest; India needs to buy non-Russian too. Eurofighter is ideal in terms of logistics, tech-transfer and redundant suppliers from international consortium. I don't see any challenger coming close, though USA is known to make major concessions thru political interventions even at last stages, a-la Bush and nuke-deal.

Mr. Ra said...

My fellow RATSHAKers, we need to press the govt to buy the rafale! I have started a petition, please contact me if you are in or around the New Delhi area.

Also, we have a petition for the sacking of everyone who was involved in the c'wealth games complex. Millions of crores has been looted.

Silent Lucidity said...

Just wait for the US to spoil the party , like they did with the helo deal.

Rahul said...

I hope this UPA US-kak sucking govt doesnt bend over when obama and his minions start putting pressure to make the MRCA a US aircraft.

We at Bharat-Rakshak are debating a lot - about this and many other issues - lately and we have decided to ask other people to support us in our cause. We are like a think-tank but extracting information which is freely available on the net. The only difference between a think-tank and us is that we don't recommend, we say this is how it should be because through our collective knowledge, we know it all.

Please join us at our website.

Axom Razor said...

Whatever!! European technology is unproven garbage. Their fighters have never been used in anything but airshows. Yanks had suggested access to F35. Indians should have pushed hard for F35. That would have given them access to Stealth Capable fighters.

Like it or no. US technology is the best on the planet. Europeans do not build for fighting (French is usually for Surrendering) and Russians are 20 years behind.

Mr. Ra said...

...and in case the confusion or indecision persists for long, so as to break the impasse ask your friends (Pl read paki friends here) and which ever fighter they suggest enmasse, shall not be selected rather the other one is to be selected. This method never fails as it is unbiased and caters for the zigzag cross sections of all the possibilities and eventualities.

sam said...

If India is accepted an outside partner of euro fighter then the choice should be typhoon(India should not forget the tubomeca snub) else rafael makes the obvious alternative choice as it provides opportunity for Kaveri engine (90-96 KN)

amit sri said...

american birds were good but they come with strings attached.Russians are taking us for granted. So politically it makes sense to buy the european stuff. but beware of france. look what is happening to m2k5 upgrade deal. go with typhoon. they really need customers and we need dependable bird,but financially these birds r pricey!!

Anonymous said...

@axom razor .. you are like the MMS.. you like to suck up to anything amerikan. Why dont you go to their country and live there where you can be treated like a third rate citizen

Rahul said...

We at bharat-rakshak have decided in a classified thread that the govt should go for rafale. We cannot divulge the exact reasons why but trust us when we say we have done a lot of reading and googling and come to this decision.

Please shiv, can you recommend to the govt that they should opt for this.

Fellow rakshaks, please join us and help us persuade the manmohan singh/ sonia maino govt to opt for this craft.

Thankyou
Your dear brother at BR-FORUMS.

Remember, this is the place to be! Unless you are paki.

Anonymous said...

I am from the IAF. What you people don't know is that there is a lot of "ragging" and high level of corruption here. It is very sad and the reason I decided to quit after being with the force for over 5 years.

Journalists like Shiv need to expose the inherent problems in the armed forces. Everything was substandard, from the food to spare parts. If we were asked to go to war today, the system would break down. God help India, for only He can.

ajay said...

Option we have and offers.
A. Rafale
===========
(Rafale spited from the Eurofighter project over the need for a carrier based variant)


1.Rafale has an advantage over many of the competitors because it is not following ITAR
2.Have Naval capabilities
2.Have Super cruise (many people thing it dont)(http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf)
3.no thrust vectoring(But they working on)
4.Maximum payload:9,500 kg

5.Can also used for navy(Rafale splited from the Eurofighter project over the need for a carrier based variant)
6.soul ownership warfare equipment and powerful engine available engine Snecma M53 powered later Mirage 2000C
Dry:64.7kNAfterburn:95kN

7.Mirage 2000 only out because production line closed down

8.price$67 even cheaper due to recession

9.long term relation ship with france

10.Same objective such as Thales RBE2 AA aesa radar which might be completed and more powerful engine

B.Eurofighter
=============
1.Members of ITAR Problem can occur
2.lack of Naval capabilities
5.Can Supercruise
3.EADS offered to include thrust vectoring nozzles
4.Maximum payload:7,500 kg
1.Germany,Italy,Spain,UnitedKingdomso more incoming technology
2.Could be very easy to sourcespares and support
4.Engine can be used for tejas with software changes


I am not favor of rafale but

1.5 country participating in eurofighter so it is now product of global village

2.who can say after another recession any country will not sale any technology to others like Pakistan or china

3.2 is friend 3 is crowd and we will be 6th just double

4.ITAR is mojor Problem(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITAR)

5.Snecma also working on kaveri engine
6.long term relation ship can not be ignored
7.7.Eurofighter lacks of Naval capabilities

ajayorkut@rediffmail.com
====

Anonymous said...

break up the order into three parts for the same plane (50 X 3)?

Second order will not execute until LCA Mk2 enters production.

Third order will not execute until Mk3 enters production.

Before all that, clean up DRDO/HAL/ADA. All this is a big waste of money unless the technology can be leveraged to build MCA or something else.

Mr.Ra said...

No yaar. HAL will do screwdriver tech building as usual. The americans/russians/europeans will send the planes in boxes and they will be assembled like lego parts at HAL. Then they will claim that it is TOT.

I wish our country was like the american one. They actually do research and build stuff. Our country men are only interested in eating and making money. They will sell their mother if someone offers them money.

Mr. Ra said...

Fortunately at least Rafale and Mig35 are completely free of ITAR.

Rahul M (From Bharat Rakshak) said...

Why dont you silly people come join us "RATSHAKers" ?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5390&start=3120

Look at our discussion. This threat will show you that we know more than anyone in this country. We have contacts in the government and even in the PMO. We get the latest on everything before even the press. There are many "classified" threads on the forum where highly secretive conversations between officials are revealed.

From everyone who is unaware, sonia maino is steering the whole deal towards the EF. In a secret meeting between MMS and Sonia, there were discussions on trying to please obama in other ways, while giving this deal to the Europeans.

If you dont like us, you must be pakis. We hate pakis and we will destroy them one day.

Mr.Ra said...

@anon 1:29 PM

Great post!

Why dont we spend more and more money on good artistic impressions, editors etc to make our dossiers look glossy and cool. We could even add some advertisements in there. Since all we do when pakistan attacks us is send them some dossiers, ask america to help us and go crying to the UN. All the international community does is "sympathise" and then provide "aid" to paki people who use it to buy better weapons. Manmohan singh lost his balls a long time ago. And Sonia, well shes just a biach!

Moving on, the reason we need these fighters is so that our airforce has something to do. I mean we are stealing their food and clothing, lets give them some peanuts. Afterall we will send them to commit suicide when china attacks. Let them have some fun before that.

Anonymous said...

All you ratshakers seem to do is give arm-chair opinions and pass them as facts. You criticize fine journalists like shiv and ajai in your threads, all based on your ignorance and link-grabbing. And then you have the nerve to come here and comment.

Go back home you bharat-RATshakers!

Anonymous said...

sounds almost impossible to be true. They have kept the door open for the F18 though. If true the Rafale would be the plane most suited to IAF as it is a true multi-role plane.
But the game is only starting.....

RAT said...

PEOPLE TOO MUCH OF KNOWLEDGE. I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS.

1> RAFALE WITH KAVERI ENGINE OR EUROFIGHTER WITH EUROJET EJ200 ENGINE SAME FOR LCA PLUS ASSISTANCE WITH LCA DEVELOPMENT?

2> SALE TO UNFRIENDLY NATIONS SAUDI ARIBA, TURKEY INCLUDED EVENTULLY THE AIRCRAFT MAY LAND UP YOU KNOW WHERE ALSO SOME MOMBO JUMBO THING DURING HOSTALITIES HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST WILL HAPPEN AGAIN OR AN AIRCRAFT NOT SOLD TO THESE NATIONS BUT NOT GOOD EITHER?

I WOULD LIKE TO GET THE COMMENTS FROM SUPPORTERS OF EUROFIGHTER AND RAFALE.

RAT said...

SORRY SHIV FORGOT TO CONGRATULATE YOU ON THE FIRST PERSON TO BLOG THE NEWS KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

Sunny said...

Guyes what we are looking at is what IAF want... but when it comes to GOVT its a different story...

I personally want Euro fighter to win this bid.. because they have a very thoughtful Technology.. input of 4 or 5 nations. British Technology has proven it self when and where required.

RAFALE has one nation technology.

saran said...

this is mrca role not only air superiority, so please concider that from the begining it self rafale as designed for mrca role, where ef thypoon for air thats why france withdrawn from the ef project
so we need mrca? or air? or spoiling politics?
here or some statistics from www.airforce-technology.com
Rafale© Dassault Aviation - A. Paringaux

Dimensions:
Span………………………………………. 10,80 m (35.4 ft)
Wing area………………………………… 45,70 m² (492 sq ft)
Length…………………………………….. 15,27 m (33.8 ft)
Height……………………………………… 5,34 m (17,4 ft)

Weight:
Empty………………………………… ....10-ton class
Max……………………………………… 24,500 kg (54,000 lb)
Fuel (internal)……………………………. 4,700 kg (10,300 lb)
Fuel (external)…………………………… 7,500 kg (16,500 lb)
Max external capability…………………. 9,500 kg (20,950

lb)

External store stations:
Total……………………………………………...… 14
Heavy stores & fuel "wet" stations……………... 5

Load factors +9g/-3.2g
Max speed M 1.8+/750 kts
Approach speed 120 knots
Landing distance 450 m (1,475 ft)
Max climb rate Over 1,000 ft/sec
Operational ceiling 55,000 ft
Radius of action (penetration mission) More than 1,000 nautical miles Combat air patrol loiter time

The M88 engine

The M88-2 is a new-generation engine featuring state-of-the-art technologies, including non-polluting combustion chamber,single-crystal turbine blades and powder metallurgy disks... It also features the latest advances in reducing
electromagnetic and infrared signatures. In short, the M88-2 (11,250 to 17,000 lb of thrust) is a very compact powerplant, offering a high thrust-to-weight ratio and exceptional controllability, especially during acceleration.

In order to further reduce specific fuel consumption and increase the service life of the
engine's critical parts (high-pressure core and afterburner), Snecma Moteurs has developed a new version of the M88-2, called the M88-2E4. This new version offers improved fuel consumption (2 to 4 % lower than the M88-2E1). Since 2006, all M-88 engines have complied with this new standard.The M88-2E4 was designed from the outset for high
dispatch reliability, along with easy maintainability and lower operating costs, to reduce the overall cost of ownership.

saran said...

this is mrca role not only air superiority, so please consider that from the beginning it self rafale as designed for mrca role, where ef thypoon for air that's why France withdrawn from the ef project ef alredy in saudi arabia so next station pakistan???
so we need mrca? or air? or spoiling politics?

here or some links statistics referenc: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ef2000/

MPatel said...

I feel sorry for BR rats....no one of quality left there to discuss. They are all "yes" people there. This is what happens, when you become bigots and try to behave as if you are still 12yrs old. I have noticed lots of indians going to pakistani defence sites and debabting there....including me!

Anonymous said...

Last result Rafale vs Eurofighter :

ATLC 2009 exercice : Rafale 7 : 1 Eurofighter

Solenzara BVR exercice : Rafale 8 : 1 Eurofighter

And which aircraft had won the performance tests ? ;-)

Anonymous said...

eurofighter is better than rafale in air to air missions?
how can you explain that eurofighter clearly loses each time in dogfight against the rafale:
september 2009, SOLENZARA in CORSE:
9-1 for RAFALE
november 2009, ATLC in the EAU:
7-1 for what? ... RAFALE
english people, be good players, stop your lobbying and wrong pub against the french fighter!
eurofighter is not a good machine.
uggly yes!! good no!!
hello from FRANCE.

Anonymous said...

I hope they choose Eurofighter

ivan said...

I would like to say it in the straight words, let my air force people select the fighter aircraft, because they know the best, Don't ever allow the politician to enter into these selection, because they dont want to secure our country, they just want to make deal corrupt so that they can get some piece of cake for them, Goverment should make a strict not to allow any corruption in dealing with arms and ammunition, We have many less day of survival, the way chinese building their defence across the border and pakistan performing the same target as chinese. So no compromise, These politician have no brains, for them only money is important, they dont know if their country is not secure neither their house will be secure. I know they don't care for us. So I_A_F Go!! Select your best which you think will be best for our country, JAI HIND

Anonymous said...

Rafale entered service earlier and since it is a one nation effort, has lesser dependencies. Eurofighter will be a headache. Besides, Rafale can operate from an aircraft carrier (Charles de Gaulle) - Eurofighter cannot. THat is restricting.

Anonymous said...

I read on some of these forums that the final order will most likely touch 200.

In such a scenario given our understanding with MBDA (France for the new gen SR-SAMs), Dassault (France for the Mirage upgrades to 2000-5 Mk 2 or even Rafale standards), Thales (France for the Topsight-E GPS and HUD MFD systems), Snecma (France for the LOH engines), Alenia (Italy for C-27J), BAE (England for the Hawks), EADS for the Araine satellite systems and MBB (Germany for the Dhruvs)....keep all five countries happy (that includes Spain which is rumored to have pitched in CASA CN-235 and CN-295 MTAs to the para-military)..... India should hence make a smarter choice with the smart choice they have already made...go with Europe, keep the non-aligned movement ringing but keep gold old friends, the Russians on our side, and let Israeli technologies creep into the MMRCA fighters.

So essentially summing up, split the order into 126 Euros + 74 Rafales provided they start supply by 2012 with full ToT and partnerships + CFTs, AESA, 2D/3D TVC, super-cruise, FLIR-IRST avionics technologies and canards with possible EJT-2000 engines for the LCA , ToT of the single crystal turbine blade technology + discounts from France for the Mirage upgrades in exchange for another 45 aircraft order Rafale-M version for our IAC 1 and 2 and INS Vikramditya to tag along Mig-29K and Tejas-Navy.

BTW, I sort of saw this coming :))

Americans were kept happy with C-17s and C-130Js and the Russians with MTTA, Mig-29K and 42 addl Su-30MKI with Brahmos upgrades.

Sweden never had a chance, one cos of the similarities between Gripen and Tejas and two of its American engines and avionics and three cos of its dealings with Pak esp on the AWACS front.

To conclude, India should add in these two clauses as well as mandatory. Supply to start by 2012 and end by 2014 + no "businesses" with China and Pak as part of the tender.

Anonymous said...

France make a good offer ! Rafale is the best for MMRCA !

Anonymous said...

i got an idea if anyone knows who can do inception? we can try that at-least we can finish it in 10 years, or already someone did to our politicians?

Anonymous said...

i got an idea if anyone knows who can do inception? we can try that at-least we can finish it in 10 years, or already someone did to our politicians?

Anonymous said...

What should the Indian government choose -- Rafale or Eurofighter?

oops this is to eliminate or to select for iaf

shiv from BR said...

hey MPatel, I protest your post. You are a paki if you would rather go to pdef instead of BR.

Someone said that I drink a lot and pass out. this is sort of true but who here hasnt been drunk every other day?

Most journos are what we at BR call DDM (desi dork media). Sometimes shiv is good but he also posts rubbish at times. But even so we always quote stuff from every paper, including TOIlet paper because if we dont noone will know what to discuss. The top secret threads are only accessible to a important people like me and Rahul. You wont believe the kind of insider information we have. We know, for instance, which jet will be chosen because its fixed!

Only we at BR know what the ultimate truth is. Join us or become a paki.

sawant from BR said...

anon@10:25 PM

What the hell are you on about? you been watching too many movies? come to bharat ratshak and we will teach you stuff.

Shiv from BR said...

anon@5:35 PM

You know what else is restricting? The IAF lacking carriers. Are you a moron? Why would IAF need carrier based a/c if they dont even have a carrier?

This is why you should come to bharat-rakshak

Anonymous said...

anon 12:35 AM, please dont bring your BR terms here. Noone cares for you arm-chair scientists.

MPatel said...

@Shive from BR...

'Join us or become a paki.'

I like this....it made me laugh :-)

I go to defence.pk...becuase there you can discuss without resorting to racist remarks to learn something....then again you are 'mr know all bull*hit'. Most guys on BR are those indians who spend all their lives working hard and suddenly find their daughter is dating a pak or forbid a black.

Anonymous said...

It is difficult to trust americans as they keep arming Pakis.i think eurofighter or rafael is good choice strategically as we need dependable nations for such a huge investment in our defense. We should keep our old,time tested friend,russians ,also on our side.

bharat RATshakers are flies said...

Seriously, why are there so many RATSHAKers on this blog. These guys are like flies, all over the place spreading their diseases around.

anon@12:35AM is "introducing" stupid terms like "YellSeeYea" which mean didly squat outside the arrogant and obnoxious bharat-RATshak forums. Think about it, Light Combat Aircraft has been shortened to LCA, why would you be a moron and spell each letter out? Do you think it makes you look smart? It doesn't, it makes you look like a wannabe.

Please keep such idiotic terms to yourself. Noone other than your ratshak posters care for your twisted sense of humour. This is Shiv's blog, not your stupid forum.

Shiv from BR said...

Mr. MPatel, go be a paki if thats what you want. The reason I think I know it all, is because I DO know it all. See when you have a few bottles of the good stuff and some pot, it brings you revelations that normal humans don't understand.

Well, what you say is kind of true, daughters dating pakis is infuriating. And this is increasingly happening all over india. Would you like it if your daughter married one? We need to stick together at BR and make sure pakis dont come near us.

Atleast do me a favour and read my posts on BR, they are hilarious! Even Rahul said he likes the new eshtyle!

RATshakers suck! said...

You want to know why everyone outside BR call you RATSHAKERS, Mr.Shiv??

Look at this thread, http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=920071#p920071

Look at how "Sid" comments on the author. He says the good prof. should not have an opinion! And yet he goes on to give HIS opinion. You see the hypocracy you RATSHAKers follow?

I've seen thread after thread where you people take the piss out of every journalist and author out there. Its as if you guys have more knowledge than everyone else. This arrogance you people have, do you have it before you join the forum or do you get it as some sort of training when you register?

This is why you are hated among everyone outside the forum. Stick amongst yourselves lest you be thought of as morons.

amardeep. said...

i feel the rafale would be a better and more logical choice though both the rafale and ef have got a parity in terms of technology and capabilities. the reasons are:

1. the rafale supercedes the mirage 2000 which is a highly regarded aircraft in iaf circles and is combat proven during the kargil ops.


2. france has always been a reliable supplier of military hardware to india and britain has not. this was again amply demonstrated during kargil war when many equipment were supplied to indian armed forces at short notice.

3. the rafale has a future while the ef does not. the raf is looking forward to the f 35 jsf for induction while the rafale has a systematic development and upgradation programme the offsets of which are being offered to india. this program ensures that the rafale maintains a rough parity with the f 35, and it will see the iaf well thru the 2040s into the 2050s. why would the iaf opt for something replacements for which are already in the pipeline?

4. france has been politically neutral as far as indo pak scenario is concerned while britain has not been. france is a major supplier to pakistan also but the very cost of the aircraft makes it prohibitive for pakistan.

5. rafale is more advanced than any fighter in the chinese inventory. chinese plaaf is going for indegenisation with the jf 17 and the rafale is much superior to the jf 17 in all respects.

A Taxpayer said...

The Rafale is more polyvalent while the Eurofighter is primarily a high altitude interceptor.
The Rafale is smaller, cheaper, has less range, but can double up as an in-flight refueller, which the Eurofighter cannot (with a ventral pod).

The Rafale is carrier capable, the Eurofighter is not.

Anonymous said...

variants of j-7 warplane :
http://i.imagehost.org/0489/variants_of_j-7_warplane.jpg

Sam Asp.net Developer said...

The plane will be selected is F18 or Rafel.

F18 is because of US Pressure.
and incase it doesn't work it will be rafel which is much much cheaper as its ready to integrated Kaveri engine which France is working in Joint wenture with india for its newer version.

no way eurofighter can succed as its very costly.

Anonymous said...

1)Selection of Aircraft to based on transfer of technology
2) The technology transfer is for
engines, assistance in the development AMC stealth aircraft and UMCA Aurora unmanned combat a/c.
Performance +/- some pecentage is ok. Cost wise also more cost is ok if we get technology for our developments.
Whoever offers maximum technology inputs to be selected not cost not perfromance.This way country will benifit.

chowdary said...

we need to develop our aerospace technology fast.
If it is true that France links
Rafale contract with mirage2000 upgrade then it is not worth consideration
If US expects payback in terms a/c deal for nuclear deal then it is not worth consideration,because american companies get the contracts for nuclear reactors