Sunday, August 15, 2010

IAF Foresees Delays In Indo-Russian 5th Gen Fighter Programme

A senior officer of the Indian Air Force has said that India foresees "substantial delays" in the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme, with slippages that could run into a year or more for inductions into Indian service. The Indian Air Force plans to contract for 50 single-seat (prototype designated T-50) fighters and 200-250 twin-seat variants -- the latter will be built with Indian financial and technological involvement. More details soon.


rajiv said...

No need for going for F35, unless air force is not confident about the capabilities of T50. buying f35 would be waste of money given the fact our politicians don't have the balls to touch Porkistan . And please don't say it would be any sort of deterrence against Chinese. Just pray that the Chinese remain within their border.
So what the use F35.
We should hold MMRCA for balls for our diplomats and our corrupt politician.

BR member said...

If this stupid govt let us guys at BR design and develop and build a 5th generation plane, I'm sure with our knowledge we can build something even better than F22. But ofcourse, we would want good payments (in the millions of dollars) as income every year.

Anonymous said...

"with slippages that could run into a year or more"

I will take the more as in 5+ years.

Mr. Ra said...

This delay may be a natural outcome of the trials, testing and introduction of new technologies.

The only solution may be to rapidly and judiciously invest in the Su30MKI, MMRCA and even Tejas I&II.

Here selecting the plains with lowest RCS may become important.

Gautam said...

The Indian involvement in the PAK-FA program has and will be a massive waste of potential. The Russians have their fair share of blame for the delays but the fact is things would be going much smoother now if our babus had finalised Indian participation is the project as far back as 2007-8 when it was still in the design phase.

I recall reading articles in the Russian and international media about the Sukhoi heads complaining about deadlines and chastising Indian babus to make up their minds quickly or otherwise they'd have to finalise the design of the plane on their own without Indian input. That's what ultimately happened and the first prototype was already being constructed by the time HAL formally entered the program.

Now HAL has to twiddle their thumbs and watch as Sukhoi develops pretty much the entire plane themselves and Indian expertise in areas like composites(Tejas has 50% composite construction, T-50 has only 24%) and digital FBW/navigation systems(Tejas has 4-channel FBW, even MiG-29K and Su-30 have only 3) goes wasted. Ultimately we'll still get some participation in developing the two-seat variant, but all the key systems will already be developed by Russia and difficult to change.

Anonymous said...

I think Gautam is right.

Another Kaveri/LCA mutant as far as wastage of time and money go.

We get to see more pictures, foreign trips and news conf. of Dr nincompoop's et al.

Turf is the only consideration of DRDO/HAL. Nuke them - court marshal for treason.

- nanovacuum (from US)

Anonymous said...

After the LCA experience "slippage of a year or more" should not feel like "substantial delays"

Anonymous said...

Dera Shiv,

This what PLA of China has to say:

"History and reality have shown again and again that a country which does not have a world view is a backward one. A military which lacks global vision is one without hope."

It further noted:

The U.S. military buys technology already available on the open market when it can, such as global positioning systems used in the Gulf War, a cheaper and more practical method than trying to develop such equipment itself, the commentary said.

Can we Indians take a cue from this? Sometimes we exhibit psypathetic fetish towards "Self Sufficiency" as if you continue to stay in 1947!

Happy Independence Day in 2010 !

Anonymous said...

Do not complain about delay when you indians are the only country looking for a fifth Gen aircraft in twin seat config.

That why 5th Gen is built: allow one pilot to be able to manage the burder of two.

Olly said...

"Do not complain about delay when you indians are the only country looking for a fifth Gen aircraft in twin seat config.

That why 5th Gen is built: allow one pilot to be able to manage the burder of two."

Obviously you don't have a clue about what you are talking about! The F35 and the T-50 are not comparable in terms of the role they will play for their respective countries. The T-50 is going to be used for long range and deep strike aircraft. Pilot fatigue is the primary reason for many accidents and deaths. The American attempt to force one pilot to do everything alone is still an experiment that has yet to be proven to be the right choice when the actually fight a real air war! Short ranged intercept aircraft are fine with just one pilot but long range bombers and deep strike aircraft have mission times exceeding 12 hours routinely. Plus with a high sortie rate, burnout is inevitable.

A single pilot configuration is a calculation made by accountants to save money, while a twin seater configuration is what pilots are most comfortable with!

Anonymous said...

Why dont we allow the RATSHAKERs to develop and build this aircraft? They seem eager to do it.

Gautam said...

Anon @ 2:50,

The advantages of two pilots are redundant with the advanced mission systems, datalinks, SATCOM, sensor fusion and other advanced technological benefits given to pilots of modern fighter aircraft. This is especially true for the F-35, which is said to 'fly itself' with a high degree of automation and pilot-friendly controls.

Why do you think the Russians didn't order the Su-30 and twin-seat PAK-FA for themselves? I read an article in the Russian press about that some years ago: basically when the Su-30 was originally developed in the 90s Russia had no true 'multi-role' fighter and two pilots were necessary for the range of roles the Su-30 was to carry out. Afterwards the Russian aerospace industry matured and state-of-the-art technologies began to appear that made it possible for a single pilot to do such role. This culminated in the Su-35 'Super Flanker' which is currently flown by the RuAF, using further developments of many of the same systems that were developed for the Su-30MKI.

Anonymous said...

more on two seat/one seat thing:

do you know that, originally, french planned the entire force to be single seat Rafale C (Chasseur), two seat Rafale B (Biplace) was just to be a trainer. But Gulf War and Kosovo experience showed that a second crew member is invaluable on strike and reconnaissance missions, and therefore more Rafale Bs' were ordered, replacing some Rafale Cs'. 60% of the procurement order changed to two seater Cs'. then (on an about face) after lowering the acquisition target, they lowered the ratio to 40%. (mainly a cost and number issue).

- nanovacuum

avijit said...


MMertz said...

Listen up boyz, when a nation that needs to import 90% of its components for a light helicopter, whose technology has been around for the last 30 years (yes since1980's). Do you seriously think it can develop 5th gen fighters? Get real!

Bye the way, why do they always show muslim built things when they show the 'incredible india' ad?

Anonymous said...

@MMERTZ unlike some countries india cant paint Chinese toys in Porki much so for the indigenous porki planes and missiles.. well as far as muslim built things in incredible india is concerned.. they are present because muslims are very much part of india unlike the trash of porkis that migrated.. thank heavens god removed most of the trash from our country and sent it 2 porkistan..

and by the way it is not BYE THE WAY.. do they not teach u to type in english back there..Bye bye!! jai hind!!

Anonymous said...

The Russians have proven to be unreliable yet again. Let's pull out of this program and cut our losses and go for a 5th gen global tender. Russian equipment is prone to massive cost increases once India is locked into any such program. Look at the Sukhoi 30 program for instance. We are shelling out $100 million a piece for an aircraft that has no AESA and stealth. The F-35 lightning costs $100 million a piece. Here is the report on the cost increases of Su-30MKI

MMertz said...

well you indians claim su-30 to be the 'best plane ever', do you seriously expect it to cost as much as the M2K upgrade? Russians sold you stuff on the cheap before because you only bought stuff from them. Now things will be different and you will get to know how much real stuff costs. Do you know how much you are paying for C-17s? Currently indians aren't even allowed near another 10-15 years yes it will be available but it will then cost 250 million + or may be LCA MIV will be ready then :-)

Arjun said...

Lets get real - a delay of 1-2 years is no delay at all, especially for a country that's experienced an aircraft development period of over 30 years (DRDO LCA/Tejas)!!
BTW, the PAK FGFA/T-50 had its first test flight in Jan 2010, so its not a pipedream like we had with the LCA. lets recognise the fact that we do need JVs with others for hi technology systems like the Brahmos and the FGFA, nothing wrong with it.