Monday, August 16, 2010

India To Progress Javelin ATGM Deal, "Enormously Expensive" Gaffed US Soldiers In India Last Year

Couldn't resist this one. The uniformed PR soldiers of the US 2nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, which was in India last year for the Yudh Abhyas 09 mechanised joint exercise, described the Javelin ATGM as "enormously expensive" in a press release (first page, above) bang in the middle of an inspired pitch of the system to the Indian forces. Wonder what the Raytheon-Lockheed Martin gents who were faithfully embedded with the US contingent think/thought of this (probably nothing, the deal is pretty much in the bag now). The Javelin's in the news because Indian Defence Minister AK Antony told Parliament today, "The defence ministry proposes to issue a letter of request (LoR) to the US government under their foreign military sales (FMS) route for procurement of third generation anti-tank guided missile along with transfer of technology."


Anonymous said...

US of A is really getting a piece of the Indian Pie !!
First the 6 C130's; followed by the 8 P-8' C-17's, more C-130's, 147 Lightweight Howzisters, 3000(??) Javelins, Stryker IFV's, C-37 J Spartans, 22 Apaches; 15 Chinooks.........all ready to for Obama to sign up in Nov (if makes the right noises like Cameron did and got the Hawk II deal)

And, more F404 engines for the 20 new Tejas, 250 Honeywell Engines for the Jaguar UpG.......endless list......

Anonymous said...

Let there be competition between Spike and Javelin. The better of them should win rather than just purchasing Javelin off the shelf.
Also give priority to the man portable Nag.

Anonymous said...

destroy babustan... we are paying everything we earn to the USA, the chinese on the other hand are milking the US for everything they have and have almost stopped importing anything... they are trying to make everything themselves.. while we are proud of importing everything

this chaltha hai attitude needs to be destroyed along with babustan or we will always be a developing nation..

NJS said...

Obama will rock 126 nos (f-18)) in mmrca .
shiv does their is possible for tot in javelin .
every time FMS route is not good for indian financial .
another news says Pakistan also have javelin in its wish list to US , so india may lose its edge in anti tank , so that's made india to order in fastrack purchase .

Anonymous said...

This seems to be an attempt to kill the Manportable Nag from DRDO. Rather than spend huge amounts on Javelin purchase, MOD must invest the amount for research, development and production of Man portable Nag.

Mr. Ra said...

The cycles of recession and inflation either over-compress or overstretch the things.

Anonymous said...

TOT?? Have they agreed to it?

Anonymous said...

Question to Shiv.

In your report on the MMRCA a few days earlier, you mentioned that IAF was inclined to select the cheapest fighter.

So why would they want Boeing refueller? Why would they want C 117s

Both are enormously expensive than the alternatives? (IL 78/76)

IAF, in my opinion have no core competency when it comes to economics/statistics and actuarial science so why do they bother about cost. And more so when MoD and MoF controls the moolah.

What do you think?

Another pointer -

During the recent deployment to France (Istres) for the exercise, IAF noted the failure of MFD 1.2. in one Su 30. (From IAF webpage). In my opinion, 4 scenarios can justify such state of affairs, given the possibility that a professional AF sends its best maintained fighters for an exercise 6000 plus Kms away from home.

1) Su 30 has major issues, regardless of how many man hours spent on rectifying the problem.

2) IAF has chalta hai issues, so it is willing to send defective/maintenance riddled AC for such exercise.

3) IAF / HAL regular maintenance sucks.

4) This was a one off scenario; however, there was problem with one refueller drogue plus MFWS on a Su (in a combat scenario, this Su 30 will be a sitting duck) failed too. IL76 had probs too.
The website is a bit ambiguous about how many AC reached France (Istres). It mentions 4 AC launched from Ahmendabad but only 3 taking off from Luxor for France.

Does anyone have an idea what MFD 1.2 displays in a Su 30? Is MFD blanking off mid air a minor/major issue?

Which one do you think?

Cecx Fable & Gas

Anonymous said...

Read the IAF website again. IAF launched 6 Su 30 AC from India and after a stopover, 6 Su 30s took off from Luxor for Istres.

My mistake.

Cecx Fable & Gas

Gautam said...

After all of Antony's past groaning about fair and transparent tenders and selection processes, the fact that the MoD is rapidly signing a single-vendor deal for the most expensive ATGM in the world(when comparable yet cheaper analogues are available from half a dozen other sources including Russia) reeks of kickbacks and backdoor political lobbying.

It's no just the Javelin, in the past 2-3 years defence deals are being signed at prices that look grossly inflated on a per-unit basis. Of course some of this may be due to greed from the supplier(Russia) but it can't entirely be that. For instance the recent contract for additional Sukhois came at a ridiculous $100 million per plane, same as the next-gen F-35.

Something fishy is going on in the Indian MoD.

CoolSky said...

I think they want to buy technology to improve Nag, which is facing some problem in guidance during night. Therefore MOD wants to buy technology. Not to mention other interests ($$$) of MOD

Satish Chandra said...

I am India's expert in strategic defence and the father of India's strategic program, including the Integrated Guided Missiles Development Program. I have shown in my blog titled 'Nuclear Supremacy For India Over U.S.', which can be found by a Google search with the title, that all terrorism and insurgencies in the Indian subcontinent and in much of the rest of the world is sponsored by the C.I.A. Both Pakistan's ISI and India's RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) function as branches of the C.I.A. and participate in terrorism and insurgencies throughout the Subcontinent, under direction of the C.I.A. Yes, the ISI secretly supports the Taliban but it does so under direction from the C.I.A. whose modus operandi is support for ALL sides of a conflict to control the course of the conflict in service of its own goals. The goal of the U.S. invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and partial occupation of Pakistan is eventual occupation and overt colonial rule over the Subcontinent as a whole. This will not be permitted and all those participating in this enterprise, including the U.K., will be duly punished; see my blog. The document leak currently in the news has been made in preparation for abandonment of this goal and withdrawal from Afghanistan because of steps I have already taken for the nuclear destruction of New Delhi and then the coast-to-coast destruction of the United States by India with 5,000 thermonuclear warheads and extermination of its population; see my blog. It also shows how India has been kept economically and technologically down by military means and how exterminating the United States' population will solve that problem.
RAW was split off from the Intelligence Bureau which had continued after 1947 to be loyal to the British. Later the Americans supplanted the British and RAW functions as a branch of the CIA against India. RAW's grip over India is comparable to the old KGB's grip over the Soviet Union, with the difference that whereas the KGB worked for the good of the Soviet Union, except toward the end, RAW has always worked for its imperialist paymasters. The role of politicians in governing India is insignificant compared to that of CIA-RAW but RAW has no place in the public's consciousness or in discussions of public affairs in India. It is India’s real ‘government’ -- just its joint secretaries number in the hundreds -- and politicians and civil servants largely obey its dictates. Any one, even a prime minister, whom CIA-RAW considers inconvenient is eliminated, if necessary by death, as I have shown regarding the deaths of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and, later, Rajiv Gandhi in my blog. Examples of RAW’s multifarious activities are its spreading heroin addiction and AIDS first in India’s Northeast then elsewhere to provide the United States with a population to use as guinea pigs for AIDS vaccine development after the CIA was assigned the task of roping in a population for this purpose and the nuclear deal in its various aspects -- replacing indigenous production of uranium and reactors with imports, the capping, rollback and elimination of India’s nuclear weapons program, media control and buying up politicians, scientists, etc. for this purpose. The nuclear destruction of New Delhi will end C.I.A. rule over India; see my blog.

Siddy said...

So what happened to NAG?

Anonymous said...

please read this Chinese article about how china is behind India in remote sensing satellites

ISRO we are proud of u.

Anonymous said...

No prablm!!! IA gets pharen maal...IA gets happy. IA gets happy with overpriced, dysfunctional, crappy pharen maal.

mathi man said...

Times India reports: India has a shortage of 44 000 ATGMs. All the tanks in the world are going to end up on Indian border??

One ATGM for one tank. Even if I make a coseravtive estimate, 2 ATGMS for one tank. When will 22000 tanks come onto indian borders.???

We could have feigned that NAg is already in production and is being inducted rather than actually going and buying ATGMs.

This tender needs immediate cancellation in national interests and reeks on IA corruption.

Gautam said...

The Israeli Spike-ER has three times the range of Javelin and a superior guidance system. It sounds like a completely retarded(and probably motivated by bribes) for our babus to buy Javelin without even glancing at alternatives just because Pakistan is also buying it. Shouldn't we be aiming to get better weapons than Pakistan, not similar stuff?

Anonymous said...

India shining...India growing!!! jitna lootna hai loot lo...aisa mauka phir aye ya na aye. India is again becoming golden sparrow for the west.

Looto.loootoo....loottoooo reeeeee..tum bhi lootoooo hum bhi loootteee.. chalo milke loote reeee!!!!!


Anonymous said...

IA ganrals keep whining about Nag's short range, only 4 Km. Now what about javelin's range, only 2.5 Km.

Mr. Ra said...

Israeli Spike is a fourth generation man-portable fire-and-forget anti-tank guided missile.

Whereas The FGM-148 Javelin is a United States-made man-portable third generation anti-tank guided missile.

So if Nag really means to be supplemented, then Spike is a better candidate.

Forget Javelin, fire the Spike.

AK said...

Congress is on a money making spree. They have already sold the nation's pride during CWG, now they want to sell the rest of us! Jai ho!

Anonymous said...

@gautam, this clearly reaks of bribery. kangress is trying to make as much money as possible through kickbacks when they are in power. the recent deal signing which doesnt give regard to cost shows that either we are so rich we dont care abour price or someone is making a lot of money behind the scenes. Which do you think it is?

Anonymous said...

Calm down. Tot in DRDO context means that foreign company will teach them how to assemble a missile from building blocks. Not unlike a lego toy. No technology will be given as to how to make the building blocks themselves, and that is fair since DRDO et al do not have the brainpower to understand finer workings anyway. They can only assemble in a 'monkey-see-monkey-do' manner.

There's a reason why we are buying such kits instead of building them ourselves. If DRDO were smart enough to absord ToT, they would not need ToT in the first place. They would be building their own missiles and exporting them worldwide.

NJS said...

India already tested spike which has more range than javelin , but spike failed continuously to archive it , that made india to search better one , javelin with 2.5 km is world's best , but with more cost , Nag man portable still has some more years to get ready , i don't think this will effect Nag . IA has more need in man portable , more over the broader of indo sino has showing continuous problems from china , so india is also looking for better weapons in fastrack which could have edge against sino force .

Anonymous said...

What idiots come out of the subcontinent these days.

ndian Army To Test Spike Missiles
By Vivek Raghuvanshi
Published: 18 June 2008 11:57 EDT (07:57 GMT)

NEW DELHI - The Indian Army will start user trials next week of Rafael's Spike anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) in the deserts of Rajasthan, the upper reaches of Jammu and Kashmir, and the hilly terrain of Uttarkhand state. Rafael, the missile's Israeli manufacturer, will bear the full expense of the Trials.

The Spike has been tested and found unsuitable and perhaps not what its PAPER claims say. And having tested Javelin, it does what it says and is superior to Spike, so its being bought.

Even the Indian Army is not stupid enough to order direct from brochures, unlike you Internet babus.

You all are just Pakis in Hindu skins

Practical Me said...

@ Gautam

Spike-ER is a vehicle mounted missile.. too heavy for a soldier to carry during battle.. We can use spike LR but usually soldiers prefer carrying light weight atgm for obvious reasons.. Javelin and Spike have similar type of guidance system.. even the israeli army uses some javelins :)

Mr. Ra said...

3rd Gen Javelin missile has been sold at least 5000 pieces outside USA & UK.

4th Gen Spike missile has been sold at least 15000 pieces outside Israel.

However there can be a case where a lower generation weapon can be better than a higher generation weapon. Say for bombing against the Somalian rebels, F-18 has to be more useful than the F-22.

Likewise it is quite possible that based on concrete ground realities against Paki & Chink, the Javelin may be better than Spike. Purchasers are ultimately the best judges.

Anonymous said...

Let Soldiers decide what they want!!

Is not it?

Nowa days Journalists, DRDO, MoD< Middlemen, Financials, PSU, all have beomce bosses and are making hue and cry as to what their bonded labour "the Soldier" should carry on his back.

Think of it. Just a few years ago, even DRDO did not know which is the front and aft of a missile. Todya they all are pretending to be the masters.

Anonymous said...

And Javelin is not just used for tanks. It can be used against the full range of armored vehicles, artillery buildings and even sniper teams who are harassing your troops. It is precise to that extent, yes, and there is no armored tank it cannot defeat.

In Iraq, a Special Forces team of 11 specialists in soft skin vehicles destroyed an entire Iraqi armored battalion and an Iraqi mechanized infantry battalion using pop up and fire techniques.

Spike meanwhile has been used fuck all in fuck all situations. But please, continue to save the rupees to wipe your wife's smelly vagina.

Anonymous said...

Forget the expense part!Like every weapon system the Javelin has its +/-.

The important thing is to that the IA gets a weapon system ON TIME. Cost overruns,losses and problems due to our endemic delays in acquisition are far greater than any perceived disadvantage of the US Sale.And we have to satrt acting like a mature and confident nation.The US is selling weapons to India for its own considerations JUST like any other foreign seller.It is up to us to ensure that we get the best deal and the agreements do not impede our operational capabilities.If we are fool enough to be hoodwinked (repeatedly) than who is to blame but us.

Anonymous said...

Poor IA !

They are the object of ridicule by those who survive for them!

The PSUs
The MoD
The Babus
The Vendors
The arm chair experts
The Foreign Defence Industries

What a system we have developed ?

Soldiering and Generalship will soon be reduced to "slavery" of multiple masters rather than remaining a "profession".

Anonymous said...

lol @ anon 11.58am...

lol ... The arm chair experts

AKA RATshakers!

Anonymous said...

Javelins will have an additional advantage that through them we should be able to help America during their days of recession.

History has rotated a full cycle. Earlier America helped us, now we help them. That is called mutual benefit and peaceful coexistence.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 9:34 is a retard with a bigger mouth than brain who would be banned into oblivion if this were a forum. I'm surprised a gutter-quality remark like his was allowed on this blog.

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