Tuesday, September 14, 2010

AFSPA Or Nothing, Says Chairman Chiefs Of Staff

Indian Air Force chief & Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee PV Naik laid it pretty plain on the churning issue of the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA). Met him today at the IAF's AFNET inuguration event, where he said, "If a soldier is to be potent and effective in a counter-insurgency theatre, he must have have all the legal protection he can get." The government is expected to take a call on a controversial dilution of the AFSPA for parts of Jammu & Kashmir. The armed forces are deeply troubled, once again, about the possibility of an operational facilitator, albeit a contentious one, being sacrificed at the altar of political considerations.

In the newsroom, we're constantly bombarded with opinion about the subject. Be great to know what everyone thinks -- should the AFSPA be withdrawn or diluted in parts of Jammu & Kashmir?

67 comments :

Anonymous said...

Now the vote bank is coming to hurt our Jawans - shame.....

Anonymous said...

In fact AFSPA should be strengthened even more...

Anonymous said...

MMS is the biggest traitor in India. All anti-national laws meant to weaken us are being passed in his tenure. Who will you be "fair" to if country does not remain ?

Tejas said...

it should stay as it is.

Anonymous said...

AS long as india allow the unpatriotic anti-india group like Hurryant , these types of activities will take place regularly in kashmir and also as long as pak offers them $$$ to these groups. these groups should be shifted to other countries permanently

sasma50 said...

I fully support the Air Chief in this aspect. We must truely stand firm for our country and show the right political courage and attitude to take the kashmir problem headlong. AFSPA cannot be withdrawn and should not be diluted at all for the sake of political ineptitude and failure of local governance. If required we must change the government in kashmir with another dispensation. This is testing time for our leaders. Let them show their competence now. Withdrawal or dilution of AFSPA will be simply playing into the hands of the parties enmical to our interests

Anonymous said...

Absolutely agree. AFSPA should not be changed. This is ridiculous, they want soldiers to keep the peace, which at times will require using force, but want to take away their legal protection!

Shame on babus who want to do that.

Mertz said...

This looks very bad for india. You can legally kill unarmed 12 to 14 year olds who are only throwing stones at you. Imagine if someone did that to your child, brother, sister. All they want is freedom. You think Pakistan is paying these children --> use your brain and think. Would you have your 12 yrs old killed by an indian soldier for 10 dollars?

Apoorv said...

Instead of weakening the separatists who are roaming free and arousing violence, our government wants to weaken the armed forces. Instead of weakening the army, the traitors who are causing trouble should be targeted. RAW should be given a special project of selectively killing people who are brewing trouble. The media can be banned for a few months. Weak handedness does not help in such situations.

Anonymous said...

Only anti national elements who want to break India will gain if AFSPA will be diluted.

The home ministry babus initially were playing "games" with the Armed forces by suggesting all those Amendments.

Now the separatists in Kashmir have merely latched on to this .

This controversy is the RESULT of the home ministry babus

Separatists have made it a prestige issue

Anonymous said...

Fact: One cannot establish control if the majority of the population is against you. American experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan are proof of that. All one can hope for is a political solution.

The problem is that once you add poorly trained para-military forces in a volatile situation, these atrocities are bound to happen. If force is not restrained it will be mis-used. The government needs to make these idiots who do so much damage to India's strategic interests accountable for their actions. Else Kashmir will remain a black hole sucking up resources that can be put to much better use than wasting them on defence.

A guy from J&K said...

Right...but the districts from where AFSPA is being considerd to be removed are the districts where army is not present since 8-10 years.....whats the point of implementing this act if the people(armed forces) it is supposed to protect are not present there..??
Whats the point of enacting AFSPA in jammu and srinagar districts???

Cant it be like a mere confidence building measure? Just a symbolic gesture?

Anonymous said...

Article 370 must go. Time to raid our western neighborhood upto Hindu kush mountains. The land which belongs to the Indian civilization must be retaken. The time has arrived.

Anonymous said...

No. It will not solve the problem.

All the problems lead to the corrupted netas and babus of India. In just 2G scam govt lost Rs. 70000 crore!!!! Unbelievable. On possible in India.

Anonymous said...

CCOS Shri PV Naik is a man of true grit all army personnel appreciate him and his patriotism India does not require missiles but people like him

Anonymous said...

Well, one would not like to carry Identity cards when coming out of house, say to buy some salt and then taken to task by security personal and punished like school kids, corporal punishment, in Free India and of which Jammu & Kashmir is a integral part, which is even opposed in schools.

However, if this should mean that Security forces should be deprived of protection legally, Answer is a loud 'NO'

So should the controversial problems continue again a loud 'NO'.


There needs be sensitization of the forces , which is done always.

There should be impartial look into cases of misuse of power ( When politicians do this and are let off, people are happy to accept and even love them), however, army has been known to handle this well and in cases possible appropriate action has been taken.

After all people of my country are involved as security forces , who have left their families behind somewhere in a different part of the country and are protecting public elsewhere and as public.

So while political interests and Traitors who are in favor of people across the border misguiding our masses are misguiding our public. This protest is due to problems due to local governance issues , but only by virtue of it's position has taken the form of the protests we see, children who don't know of the past and by the way of protests who are they supporting, what should they be actually pretesting against and whom and that the country is larger than they think and they are part of it, who have been kept in a well when they can swim in the sea.

IAmGuestSoAreYou said...

For now AFSPA should remain as it is. Article 370 should be scrapped and Kashmir be made like any other Indian State. Let industrialist from other states go there and set up factories. Kashmiris will get jobs and the region will progress economically. During the initial phase of industrilization army would need AFSPA to protect them. Once kashmiris have jobs, bright future and dreams to chase, they will stop paying heed to sepratist leaders and then AFSPA can be gradually withdrawn.

ROHIT KUMAR said...

SHAME ON YOU BABUs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

congress have never left any opportunity to gain vote bank policy , please spear our jawans !!!!!!

Anonymous said...

votebank politics at its best.. die f***ing congress! MMS is a traitor led by the dynasty. We need real patriots in power. Not mushy mushy people who will cave in to every whim and fancy of whoever is willing to be violent for their goals... naxals, maoists, harriyat, ISI.. everyone is having a field day. and now this.

Hardik Patidar said...

hang these hurriyat leaders and also this traitor omar from that sheikh abdullah family the real villain of kashmir.

we must strengthen AFSPA

but unfortunately we have the same rulers who were at the time of sheikh!

Anonymous said...

congress with its appeasement at all cost policy will in the foreseeable lead chaos in India..thanks Antonio Manio and Vinci...

Anonymous said...

While I think that AFSPA must be repealed at some point in the future, now is not the time to do it. While insurgency remains a problem the armed forces must be given the ability to perform their role of protecting the country's integrity and sovereignty without fear of legal persecution. Will we let terrorists take our soldiers to court for performing their duty?

Anonymous said...

I propose withdrawing AFSPA in certain areas which are already calm. This will give political cover to start dialogue. Then if Hurriyat instigates violence, hit them hard on the head with a reinforced AFSPA. China and Russia deal with an iron hand. It is time we learned how to play their game.

Tushar said...

I'm disappointed with the Indian political system. Just when you think things might be going well, economy might be doing better, they start to go back to playing all sorts of political games. Be it Congress, BJP or the communists (The communinsts CPIM, being the worst). I feel let down once again by Congress, I thought MMS would be good for the country and he was/is regarding the Economy. But unfortunately he has no guts standing upto his own party members in order to resolve the AFSPA. Why can't they just get the army to step in and throw out the damn separatists, regardless whether they're moderate or extremists. They're nothing but a bunch of selfish elements that have no interest in creating peace in Kashmir, but rather want power and fill their pockets.

I could go on, bottom line, they need the AFSPA in their, or might as well let go of J&K and allow the rest of India to fall apart one state at a time!

Mr. Ra said...

Withdrawal of AFSPA now may ultimately tantamount to be playing in to the hands of Paki.

AFSPA shall be reviewed when all the refugees from Kashmir are able to return back to Kashmir and resettle there peacefully for at least ten years.

Anonymous said...

Doing so will just be an invitation to Taliban and Al Qaida to set up shop in India (which they are running covertly now).

Kunal said...

To Mertz 4:45 p.m.


For your kind info insurgency/separatist groups all around the third world sell n put up women n children as sacrificial shield; be it Indonesia, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Chechnya, etc. Plz look into contemporary historical reporting. Was not Ajmal Kasab sold by his father for money??? What happened in Lal Masjid, why were women n children there?? At least the same is not true of Golden Temple during Bhindarewala.

Anonymous said...

A soldier, unlike a cop, is trained to kill. He needs legal protection in times of internal or foreign influenced crisis in the country. If the AFSPA is withdrawn in J&K, so should be the army. Let the J&K police step up to the plate in Srinagar.

10 or 12 year olds getting killed at the hands of the security forces is tragic. But, it shows poorly on the parents and the protestors who put children in front of violent protests as cover to trigger sympathy or more recruitment.

Anonymous said...

Time for make Mr Narendra Modi our PM.

Anonymous said...

I am not fan of BJP or anything,
still I believe, NDA could have handled Kashmir issue much better way.

I tell you HM and PM looks like have no Idea how to deal with Kashmir Or Naxal issue. Congress is total failure.
Oh my God, some Idiots, Does not understands how big issue is this.

Bala Vignesh said...

The AFSPA must not be diluted.. If it were to be removed then a lot of bureaucratic shields that are placed around the soldiers working there and that drastically reduce his effectiveness... In my opinion, if we are going to dilute the AFSPA in any insurgency-hit state, we might as well hand over the state to the country claiming it...
Right now, for J&K, the Act can be amended to add may be another layer of control for the users of this act...

Anonymous said...

Tell the MPs to downsize their security, pay hike, & all priveleges. If they can do that, then we will think. Or ask them to defend the borders.

Anonymous said...

The ISI never had it better. A nincompoop Indian IAS which is trying to burn every pie by arrogant know-it-all-ship and a corporately machiavellian Congress and their expat CEO from Italy. Be it Naxalism, food distribution, essential commodity prices or the Armed Forces - all have been mishandled. The IAS arrogance led by a bureaucratically lethargic AND ADMINISTRATIVELY CHALLENGED PM AND HM has led to even the most disciplined organisation getting fed up and raising its hackles.
This ploy of removal of AFSPA as a red herring to negate their inabiltiy to handle the situation is sickening.
IF THE AFSPA IS TAMPERED WITH THE ARMY MUST ENSURE THAT ALL IAS OFFICERS (SDMs/DCs etc)AND THE LOCAL POLITICAL LEADERS (COUNCILLORS,MLAs)MUST MOVE WITH ARMY COLUMNS. LET THESE GUYS GET SHOT IN THE ARSE FIRST. IF A GEELANI OR MIRWAIZ CAN GATHER A CROWD OF 20000 PEOPLE ONTO THE STREETS ISNT IT SURPRISING THAT THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS ARE RUNNING SCARED AND CANNOT EVEN MUSTER A SMALL GATHERING IN SUPPORT. DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE 64% VOTER TURNOUT WAS JUST HOGWASH AND LIKE THE REST OF THE THE EVMs MAY HAVE BEEN TAMPERED WITH?

the terminator said...

What is new with our babudom? Being idle and chewing pan, chai and biskoot and whatnot is the norm for these ineffective, lazy and corrupted baboos. What do they know about the soldiers who are day in day out keeping these very babus safe in their palaces?

AFSPA is necessary to keep the extremist pigs in their place. When and only when these Porki supporters give up their struggle to be part of Porkistan should the GOI consider the possibility of diluting certain aspects of it.

AFSPA is the stumbling block for the muslim fanatics fanning a lot of trouble in Kashmir. It that is removed with the help of the ignorant babus Porki sympathisers, then it is unfettered freedom for these fanatics to do as they please.

Let SANITY prevail for once. Do not remove AFSPA. Let that be the guardian of the security forces from the enemies of India.

Removing AFSPA is tantamount to treason.

Ram said...

Very well said Anonymous. I completely agree with you. The AFSPA as it stands today is still be not able to bring Kashmir under control and see that peace prevails. In fact a complete blanket on Media should be imposed. Take the results when there was ban on cell phone in Kashmir, the number of incidents were very miniscule as compared to the ones today. Apart from the IAS babus, I propose that let the entire Parliament be shifted to Kashmir. Does the govt have the guts to do this. One more thing any reduction in powers of AFSPA would be a shot in the Arm for the Separatist and the ISI and a shot in the heart of every brave Jawan in kashmir. Our brave boys would be butchered. I also feel that this a ploy by the present minority boot licking govt to appease the muslims not only in Kashmir but also in Pakistan!!!!!!

Ram said...

Merts which land do you come from. If you are from Pakistan or the West then you need to educate yourself. If you are bragging based on some insane Human rights Organization statements then you need to enlighten yourself on the Poli8tical situations before getting on to brag on such discussion forums

kashmiri said...

Our old generation was in two minds whether we stay with india or pakistan. But they would never take up arms (we were not like POK kashmiris). Then some families(the tough one, whatever you call them) joined the islamists. Many of these people were killed by the security forces. But they were recognised as warriors/shaheeds, after the way indian forces behaved. Then the paks came against all odds, literally to die and show us the way. This gave courage to even more people, especially the young.

Over the years our new generation has completely changed from the old. They are focused and are media savy. They are not afraid of indian soldiers. They are becoming more like their brethren across the LOC. They do not believe in india at all. The next generation are just childrens now but already they are being taught mother india's love of their land. It is our land.

Kashmiri said...

Here have a look at kashmiri's point of view:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11296951

Anonymous said...

let us remove AFSPA for the sake of CONGRESS UNITY ... while we are at it, why not remove the armed forces from the Valley as a goodwill gesture to the Separatists...hell !!! while we are at it, as a display of CONGRESS UNITY, let us also pull all the remaining Hindus out of the rest of the J&K as was previously done, in the name of BARKHA DATT Kashmiriyat .. this is surely going to resolve all the problems being faced in the Valley ...

Alok pandya said...

Omar Abdullah is desperately seeking for a bail out but that should not come at the cost of the morale of the forces...political blunders have been a legacy...right from the declaration of going in for a UN referrendum when we were in a position to alter the ground realities....lets hope this is not exhibit once again....

Hardik Patidar said...

yes there is only one leader in our country who can handle the kashmiri problem he even can give great THAPPADs and LATs to the pukis and chilichickens because these are 'laton ke bhoots'...

Hardik Patidar said...

He is the one and only Narendra Modi.

Mertz said...

Which modern country kills unarmed 12-14yr olds, for demonstarting? Oh and this country claims to be incrediable, peaceful. Even the chinese are not this cruel. But then again from the comments above, indians do not consider kashmir's people to be indian. Why else would they appload their soldiers killing civilians? I am from austria. From here it looks like kashmir is a conquared land with its people subject to brutality, rape and legalised killing of its children. Its a shame that humans can applaud killing of children.

Anonymous said...

@kashmiri said...
Our old generation was ...
You really think the Pakis are worried about the Kashmiris. They feel xenophobic about the Sindhis whom they call the Mohajirs and the Kashmiris and the baluchis and the Pathans.They want Kashmir on the boil only to bleed India with a thousand cuts. Our Italian Congress and IAS Babus aid them by their impotence and penis envy of the Armed forces. In Pakistan your so called brethren go about aerial bombardment of Baluchis and in the NWFP.
So either your post is mischievious or propoganda.
The children dont have to be scared of the Indian Army. The Indian Army has the best human rights record in the world. The only people who would like to sully that by rumours are the Italian Congress, The IAS babu and The ISI. If (though this is fiction) the Pak Army marches into Srinagar then Allah help the Kashmiris. I think they have learnt their lesson after the Pakistani military raiders entered Kashmir in 1948.
Kashmiris will survive only with India. Break away and you can condemn your people into the dungeons of HELL. After the honey moon period they will screw you and then bomb you as like they are doing in NWFP and Baluchistan.

TAKE YOUR PICK SIR.

Anonymous said...

hey Mertz,

U are saying why army killed 12 yr old .. my question is that what is a 1 yr kid doing where stones are pelted and govt offices are being burnt , security man are thrashed . Kindly dont give comments on things which you are no aware . a separatist was caught on call asking for more martyrs.....


Its Indian territory its not just peace of land its our heart and soul so refrain from making foolish comments .


GOD BLESS OUR BOYS WHO ARE HOLDING THE FORT.


JAI HIND

Anonymous said...

@Mertz
If my own child throws a stone on an Indian Soldier, i would kill him then and there itself.

DELTA said...

Another point of view:

For those who feel the forces (army + paramilitary) are flouting human rights regulations and such, some facts for you. Human rights watchdogs are super active there. There are regular meetings where all issues are taken up. The army has somewhat sensitized (by force though), an old man can go and meet 2-star generals to voice his problem (seen it). Yes, the jawans are brusque in their handling and much on the aggressive, but there is a reason for that. Go and live the life an armyman lives in Kashmir and you will know.


About the riots:
Kashmir is a troubled area. When you speak to a commoner, he speaks of "your Hindustan/India" and "hamara Kashmir". They treat India like a separate entity. So when some tensions flare up, curfews are put in place (not too strict, but still, they are there). Now because of the anti-"hindustan" mentality, all take to the streets. Thats when things go to hell. Police cant handle them (you will be able to find many of the policemen running away after the beginning of the riot), so the army comes forward. This is an "army", not some observor force on UN mission. Army was called in as police cant handle them (not entirely because of an inept police, the highly aggressive crowds are to blame too). The army fires warning shots (which should be indication enough) but the crowd counters with stones, so then they pick targets.

To those people who make it sound all sentimental (especially like those in the article by kashmiri@1333hrs):

"Cousin was killed, cant go out to get milk for kids, we are threatened" Lots of melodrama clearly visible. When asked for ID cards by police, people get aggressive and an instant a crowd collects. The policeman retreats. Next time he asks for ID cards, any aggression will be replied by stick. Thats what happens. Instead of co-operating with the police, people like to breed aggression. Why protest when you know that your protest wont make a whiff in the US, and when you know the forces are aggressive. But no, you cannot reason with a Kashmiri. And do not point fingers at the police, POLICE IS RECRUITED FROM THOSE REGIONS ITSELF.

Restricted media in Kashmir:
One line- read them and you will know why are they restricted.


As a footnote, if the J&K populace cant co-operate for simple security checks, they are asking for trouble. We arevalready expecting too much out of the forces, lets not make things tough for them.

Food for thought:
1)Go through the figures the army spends to maintain their forces in J&K for a day, figures run into 10^10.
2) Knowledge of stress levels encountered in the army personnel (officers and jawans).
Should put some perspective into you.

DELTA said...

And finally, I am not in the army, or anything related. I am a young person who has done extensive reading and research on the J&K issue (including many visits) and choose to make "informed" decisions. You are welcome to correct me on issues, we are here to voice opinions.

Kashmiri said...

Delta, you seem to have spent time in kashmir and given very thoughtful comments. It is true that some of the police are recruited locally but they also dislike the hindustanis and do not want to be seen to be doing their work for them. Most of them are there simply in police to collect a wage. It is impossible to like you guys there. For us you will always be outsiders, irrespective of how nice you are (too much innocent blood has been shed). You hindustanis still do not understand our culture, why should we show you our id's in our homeland? We should be asking you for your id's. These are the simple things your people will never understand about our culture, Our concept of honour, pride.

the terminator said...

Mertz @ 6:35

You may be from Austria or Timbuktu for all I care but at least read about the background of the conflict (if you can call it thus)before venting your crap from your high horse.

FYI, Kashmir is part of India. It was the muslim fanatics from newly independent Pakistan that launched an attack on Indian territory to annex it with Pakistan. They failed miserably and since then they are the ones instigating young, impressionable and gullible Kashmiri youths to stage demonstrations and terrorist acts in Kashmir.

Indian security personnel only react when the situation gets out of hand because they exercise a lot of self-restraint knowing well there will be ignorant fools like you who would gladly demonise them without knowing the real facts of the situation.

Mertz, why not go to Pakistan and the talibunnies that they produce for world peace and find out the truth from their perspective! You may not even live a day when you set foot in that terrorist state. Haven't you read about whites like you getting abducted and held for ransom to finance their terrorist machinery? How many of those poor sods came out alive?

Go to Pakistan and we will be better off without nincompoops like you.

As for 12 year olds getting killed, what would you do if drug crazed or religious fanatics come at you?

Anonymous said...

@Kashmiri said...2:43 AM Our concept of honour, pride I fail to understand your concept of Honour & Pride. Where was your honour when Kashmiri Pundits were massacred and driven out from the Valley in 1989. Today you talk of human rights but what about those little kids who fled to refugee camps in Jammu and Udhampur just because the separatists were raping and looting them. WAS THIS YOUR HONOUR & PRIDE? Okay - today you are trying a sympathy chord by sacrificing children like cowards by pushing them in front of the Police bullets. IS THIS YOUR HONOUR THAT YOU HIDE BEHIND WOMEN AN CHILDREN? IF YOU WERE NOT IMPOTENT EUNUCHS WE WOULD HAVE EACH CHILD SHIELDED BY 'REAL' MEN AND NOT HAVE THE PAK CONTROLLED EUNUCHS HIDING BEHIND THEM. Its easy to get children killed by pushing them in front and then creating an Human rights issue. Are these the children of the trouble mongers? No way? Their children are safe in Pakistan, Dubai or Australia.THE BEST WORD FOR SUCH COWARDS WHO PUSH CHILDREN AS CANNON FODDER IS 'HIJDA'. ARE YOU PROUD OF BEING ONE? WHY AREN'T YOU CALLING THE KASHMIRI PUNDITS BACK INTO THE VALLEY? OR DO YOU CALL THEIR MASSACRE A MATTER OF HONOUR & PRIDE.
You guys are getting away with this only because of the Italian Congress and corrupt IAS babus. Otherwise in these years after 1989 when you drove the hindus out of the valley into refugee camps in their own country the Govt should have woken up and removed Art 370. What would have happened ? Some protest and killings? Isnt it happening now? Needed that Political guts which is missing in this sly govt.
In fact even now if the integrity of the Nation is being questioned the Govt should take a lesson from your mentors The Pakis. Bomb those areas where sepeartists are holed up. Remove Art 370 and move in the army. Instead of this prolonged proxy war lets have a face off. KASHMIR IS INDIA - No Questions.
Dare Pakistan to enter when the Valley is being cleansed of the Devils. Why listen to this day in day out kich-kich of humnan rights violation and figures of 1 - 50000 people killed. Lets have one surgical strike. INDIA should demonstrate - DONT MESS WITH US.
And belive me - KASHMIRIS HATE THE PAKIS WHO DISTRUST THEM AND THEY WOULD LIKE TO OPEN UP KASHMIR AS A SAFE HAVEN FOR TERRORISTS FROM SAUDI AND AFGHNISTAN.

Anonymous said...

@ Kashmiri ,
So go back to pak and work with Taliban, Laskar you say this is your culture .
i am muslim i love india , don't be anti element and spoil our religion name .
india is my mother country all indians are my brothers and sisters .

if you believe your father is pakistani , than you will speak like this only.

Anonymous said...

To all you so called supporters of AFSPA and those who indulge in arm-chair-general esque grandstanding (time to retake what belongs to the indian civilization, i will kill my child if he throws a stone at an indian soldier, make Narendra Modi PM, hang Hurriyat/Omar), and naming calling (traitors, shameless etc.).. Some realistic advice: No hearts have been ever won by armed presence: not in Kashmir, not in Punjab, not in Iraq, not in Chechnya, not in Gaza.. etc etc.. You can either slowly win the hearts of the people, or if they are too retarded to think straight/secular/forward, then you transplant & overwhelm them with more civilians. What good has Kashmir done India? Just brought us some bad intl face.. along with gujarat, babri, punjab, sri lanka and a bunch of other misadventures. The time for playing wannabe regional superpower is over. We have arrived. We are a regional superpower. We dont need kashmir. Ppl are rotting and lamenting in PoK anyways. I say, withdraw the AFSPCA, withdraw the major military presence, and withdraw/repeal any law/act that forbids nonkashmiri indians from settling in kashmir. Flood it with all kinds of ethnicity. There are enough refugees all over the place from all religions and races. Set them up. As the Chinese did with the Han in Tibet. No insurgency will work then. Use the budget saved in maintaining a military presence to fight the naxals and keep our hub cities safe. Kashmir is a lost cause. We have pumped so much money into that fat, spoilt, brat-state in the last 2-3 decades that they dont know what it means to be cut-off or weaned off economically. Let them become independent. They will be occupied by Pak, China or ISAF/NATO in a matter of months and will suffer military rule inevitably.
And while we are at it, I propose all the bravado acts posting here pack their bags and go settle in Kashmir, along wth all Modi lovers and Thackerays and other rotten apples n our crate.. Sick and tired of the social rot we suffer.. along with political and communal rots..

Anonymous said...

Mertz.. appreciate your view from the outside.. yes killing of teenagers is never looked upon as vndcative by anybody who is sane, whether he is kashmiri, indian or even the soldier who does it. It's an action that occurs on the spur of the moment and things can spiral out of control very easily. The avg indian soldier is not psych-trained to deal with such complex situations, and to his defence, even a 1st world force like that of the USMC/USArmy finds it difficult to maintain decorum. The simple fact is: ANY prolonged armed military presence will result in issues.. killings, rape, murder, corruption.. etc etc.. Its an inevitability. Call it Probability, Game Theory, or entropy or divine mischief at work.
No goal of peace can be achieved by military presence and agenda.
But surely you coming from Austria (I presume you are Caucasian, and not of external ethnicity), will know all too well.. 'Raus, Juden, Raus'?

Anonymous said...

@mertz,

Stop posting crap if you dont know the truth. Read about the history of Kashmir. When The King of kashmir decided to join india, Pakistan invaded it. So you see, Kashmir is Indian and pakistan is the occupier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir#Year_1947_and_1948

Kashmir is constantly being instigated to fight by pakistan's ISI. This is a known fact. With this being the case, the "youth" are all radicalised and not exactly "innocent". Would you let your army/police allow radical youth to chuck stones at them in your country? Its easy to talk when its not your country. The army only fires when they are under seige.

So keep your crap to yourself. I would suggest you read the facts before you talk nonsense. Dont just talk what pakis say on their forums. They are radicals.

Pankaj said...

India NEEDS KASHMIR .Kashmir has immense MILITARY VALUE.

Just look at the maps and see WHY we occupied it in the first place.

Pakistanis themselves SAY ALL THE TIME that Kashmir is Pakistan's
JUGULAR vein.

pakistan will ALWAYS BE ENEMICAL towards India.It is in their BLOOD AND GENES.

so it is militarily important to be ABLE TO HURT PAKISTAN

Anonymous said...

To all who proclaim the Kashmiri culture is different ...thats crap thats been filled in your head.....unless your culture is radically different from what happens elsewhere...thats just the way culture grows.....physical proximity implies there will be cultural similarities...

India didnt annexe kashmir....while u were trying to decide..pakistan (your saviour) tried to take it by force...and thats when the ruler asked india for help and signed the papers (oh yeah..that hindu ruler...i'm sure the muslims would have preferred to have the pakistani army invade..)

about the plebiscite....go find out the conditions for it...
Pakistani army withdraws..it still hasnt and it has changed PoK demographics by bringing in people from other parts of Kashmir...
whereas indian govt does not allow people from outside to settle...not discourage...it does not allow it..plain n simple....

Independent Kashmir...i suppose u want an islamic kashmir....forget the minorities that lived there (we drove em out..so its no longer their land).....
And i suppose the people of this Independent state will generate enough revenue to support its own military and police and administration...nestled between India n Pakistan...but i suppose it could still be used for Pakistani purposes such as launching terrorists into India....or will the new country ask for foreign help if Pakistan tries that...

DELTA said...

@anonymous@1143hrs

I believe the government is trying that approach (labourers from different part of the country were brought in to work for the railway line project).

One very major factor in bringing varied ethnicity would by allowing non-J&K residents to purchase property and develop it (modification of article 370). I think once the residents of the state see what they are missing out on, it might affect their mindset.

But the AFSPA or the count of forces stationed there cannot be changed, atleast for the next 3-5 years. Any such act will probably lead to an influx of militants or destabilisation in the region.

Another way out would be to make education compulsory in government institutes (all children to be educated only in government institutes). The teachers there should be such that the be able to show them the benefits of being an Indian state (I dont see benefit in being independent or going to Pakistan). Basically, in simple terms, "commy style brainwashing".

J&K people must understand, that they will never be able to have an independent entity. They have to be Indian or Pakistani. The simple reason for that is that we (Indians/Pakistanis) are too imperfect and have the "ready-to-pick-arms-at-the-drop-of-a-hat" (!!) attitude.

@Kashmiri@0243hrs

Innocent blood is shed everywhere. Ask the residents of Punjab (Op. Blue Star), they did get over it. I know that Blue Star is not at all comparable to the situation in J&K, but a solution needs to be worked out.

Even we show ID's in where we stay. Hell, we've all heard the American dialogue form Hollywood movies "can I see some ID please". Its there everywhere, even we all will soon have our very own "Unique Identification Number ".

"Our concept of honour, pride". We do not understand, so please enlighten us. Being from a martial race, even we have our honour and pride. But what I think it is about is ego and religion. Please be frank and tell me this is not the case.

Anonymous said...

Pankaj at 0356,
Stop typing in alternate caps lock and go hurt Pakistan if you want. Yourself. Kashmir has hurt India more than help it. We are wasting good money there..
Strategic Value? Why? Because it gives Pak and China a clear land link? They already have that. If they use Kashmir, we can snap t when we want to. The key is Afghanistan and their support. It has Uranium? Ok, but we have enough nukes.. Nuclear power, get uranium from Oz. Pakistan can have their jugular vein for all I care. Right now they are reeling with another of their jugular veins screwing them over (Indus). India can do without the juvenile delinquent it has spawned over the last 50 years. We need to look inside.

Anonymous said...

In the last 90 days 90 people have been pushed to their deaths by the Pak puppets a.k.a Hurriyat. WHY CANT THIS WIMP OF A GOVT HAVE CHARGED MIRWAIZ AND GEELANI FOR SEDITION AND SEND THEM TO THE FIRING SQUAD FOR TREASON AGAINST THE STATE. AT LEAST THE CHILDREN THEY ARE SENDING TO THEIR DEATHS WHILE HIDING AND COWERING COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. NOW THEY WANT TO PICKET ARMY GARRISONS. BEFORE THAT HAPPENS THESE CHAPS SHOULD BE SET INTO A CONCRETE CAST AND SENT DOWN DAL LAKE. WHAT IS BETTER THE FUMIGATION OF THESE COWARDS or THE DEATH OF THE CHILDREN WHOM THEY PUSH IN FRONT OF THE BULLETS. ISNT IT WIERD THAT SECURITY FORCES HAVE BULLETS THAT SEEK AND KILL CHILDREN - SOME TECHNOLOGY? I BELIVE THESE BULLETS DROP DOWN WHEN THEY MOVE TOWARDS THESE COWARDS - EVEN THE BULLETS ARE ASHAMED OF KILLING SUCH SCUM. THE NEWS THAT GEELANI AND MIRWAIZ ARE KILLING CHILDREN IN CROWDS SO THAT THEY CAN BLAME THE SECURITY FORCES AND THE STATE IS COMING TRUE.
COME ON CONGRESS - ARREST THESE S-O-Bs AND THROW AWAY THE KEYS - YOU WILL BE DOING US KASHMIRIS A FAVOUR.ALSO HELP US RETURN TO OUR HOMELAND FROM WHERE THESE MARAUDERS DROVE US OUT

Ram said...

Merts
Go back to school. This is not place for a person with shallow dept of knowledge.

Ram said...

Merts
Go back to school. This is not place for a person with shallow dept of knowledge.

Pankaj said...

I want to state ONCE AGAIN that India will NEVER NEVER NEVER let Kashmir OR any other part of India GO AWAY .

Those people who talk of Financial expenses on kashmir ,Let me remind them That in INDIA there is a lot of wastage and inefficiency in all aspects of our economy

If OUR central and state governments become more EFFICIENT
we could ADD 2 lakh crores more in Our National income

Mertz said...

I suggest that some of you need to look at what happend to the USSR, especially in the baltic states. USSR moved so many slav's there that they outnumbered the locals. It did not stop the inevitable.

The situation is even more difficult for you guys. Kashmiris have their own language, customs which are different to your's from cradle to death. There is no mixing between your people. They don't consider you their equal, just like the Estonians, latvians, etc wrt slav's.

There is one thing you need to be aware of, nowhere on the planet earth has an outsider ever replaced the locals, where the locals had critical mass...death or assimilation is the norm if you cannot run fast.

The bottom line is i want to know how many of you will give up your foreign passports (or the dream of) to live in kashmir, knowning that at anytime a kashmiri will blow the brains of your boy away?

DELTA said...

@Mertz@2015hrs

Indian demographics are somewhat different. The first people to migrate to a place are the economically weaker strata (like daily wage workers). Yes they will be fairly reluctant, but the lure of good money is reason enough for them to risk it. But before that happens, tensions in Kashmir need to be eased. And customs are not too different. Kashmir does have a very high ratio of muslims, but that dosent change much. And we are not trying to replace the locals, just dilute them somewhat so that they know that things are better if they (the populace of J&K) behave like normal Indian citizens, and so that there is economic competition such that they divert themselves from being "ready to pick arms" to "busy earning bread and butter" (a laymans thought).

The biggest challenge though would be to change the mindset of the residents to be Indians (they dont consider themselves to be). For that I wonder what the government will be able to churn up (diluting AFSPA is not the answer).

I dont know what sort of misinformation do the Kashmiris get, but India will never ever part with J&K, reasons are many. They either live the way they currently are or they accept India to be their motherland.

Ram said...

Merts please please for god sake, cut that trap of yours. You have oral dysentery and no head. In India the language changes every 140 sq mile. In south indian we speak 11 different languages. Kashmiris do speak different language. If you are smar enough to understand, India has unity in diversity. No like your country - timbuku or what ever it is. So language is not the issue. You have absolutely no idea of what you are thinking every metropolis in India has at least few thousands kashmiris. Its because they dont get proper education and have no living in Kashmir. the separatists have created hell for them So has pakistan. Dont take examples of Countries which have utterly bad economy.

Anonymous said...

More than 90 citizens (some armed with only stones) including children have been killed in broad daylight by the police and CRPF in the last three months in districts where no army is deployed for active operations. Yet, no one - from PM/HM/IAS babus to the separitists - has asked for the removal of CRPF from the valley?!
In fact the PM and HM have taken the separatists' support for the removal of AFSPA when the same was not forthcoming from the Chief.
Provocative as it, coming after the rank denigration of the pay commission, it is improper to call the PM names.
The more important differences between the babu-neta combine and the armed forces is the former's cosying to the US. Why should the armed forces be punished for that?