Wednesday, October 06, 2010

EXCLUSIVE: No CISMOA? Here's What They're Pulling From The Indian C-130J

With India still hesitant to sign the contentious Communication Interoperability & Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) with Washington, there's a great deal that's been written and said -- mostly speculative -- about what technology the U
S Government will withhold from equipment already ordered by India. Several commentators have said that the American equipment on order by India -- including the C-130Js and P-8 -- wouldn't be half as useful without the technologies that would come with them if India signs the CISMOA. I've just received the official list of gear that the US Government will NOT provide to the Indian Air Force on its C-130Js. It is important to remember that this is equipment that has specifically been asked for by India. As a result, these items will be kept off the aircraft and only "may" be fitted on the aircraft once the CISMOA is signed. Here's the official list of equipment that India won't get as a direct consequence of the hanging CISMOA:

* AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) - Manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force

* KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) - Manufactured by Raytheon and administered by the US Air Force

* TACTERM / ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal - Administered by the US Air Force

* VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module - Administered by the US Air Force

* Finally, the Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver's COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT is replaced with an RT that has no COMSEC/SINCGARS

Sources say the Indian government has a few specific reservations about the CISMOA (I'm gathering more on this), and is not convinced that there is any particular hurry to conclude the memorandum. Recently, US PACOM chief Admiral Bob Willard said in Delhi that the CISMOA was not a pre-requisite to India accessing a lot of advanced American communications technology, though this pretty much went against the sentiment in all other diplomatic and military visits from the US.

34 comments :

Anonymous said...

This is why we should stay away from american stuff.there is always something involved to take india back.

Anonymous said...

We need to make-up our minds: Either sign the agreements and get the top of the line stuff, or go with average equipment and do not dream of having all the latest toys. If we invested a lot in developing the newest and the greatest technology we would expect the same. Eg. LCA is not a top of the line by any means, it's very good, but certainly not the best of the best (may be best in class (light fighters)), would we agree give Bangladesh or Nepal or any other potential buyer our best product without getting some re-assurance in return. I think this is fair, our babus need to wake-up and smell their excreta.

Anonymous said...

No big deal. All of this equipment can be replaced by those available from other international vendors. Besides we have our own secure HF/UHF/VHF/SATCOM standards and algos used by our military.

Anonymous said...

Here goes ur deal MMRca

enjoy, but beware of Ujagar Singh Amalee(USA)
They Twisted Our deal to suit them and ask do it what they want

"like Dont fly in Arbian sea bECAUSE SHIT IS OUR partner and complaining we have bigger task to complete"

NJS said...

India is paying for more and more orders but not interested to clear the hurdles , india dosen't have clear and perfect policy.

I think obama'a visit to delhi will be signed (pending agreements), US will not try to loose F-18 order in mmrca .

Ravi said...

Why can't India replace these items with say something sourced from Israel or France?

Anonymous said...

You are saying that transport planes "wouldn't be half as useful without" their super duper radio. Come on! Its like saying that a car is uselss without a radio.

Shiv Aroor said...

anon@10.59: read the full post. i've merely put out the official list of what's pulled out of the config as a result of the CISMOA hanging. nowhere have I said it wouldn't be half as useful without this gear. that's something a lot of other reports suggest, and the US hints at too. I've just put out the equipment list. read carefully next time.

Anonymous said...

UHF/VHF/SATCOM blah blah, not really surprising or indispensable gear. We can get the same kind of equipment from the Israelis or the French or the Russians and they will tailor it to our needs and we will have the encryption codes with us. Plus we can maybe modify the equipment too-something the US won't allow.

I was under the impression it would be something more substantial. This list doesn't seem half bad.

What I want to know is, with all these equipment taken off, will the C-130 be cheaper ? Or is India paying full-price for half the systems ?? If it is cheaper, it is a good deal.

Anonymous said...

@Shiv-Does india have permission to put its own gear in C 130 to overcome these hurdles??

Anonymous said...

Today, without communication and electronic warfare devices, an AC is as good as a sitting duck.USA won the Gulf wars bcoz of it's superior intelligence gathering and communication systems. The Iraqi jets were perhaps better than US jets but they loosed on the info war as their jets were not equipped with such devices. During Red Flag this aspect also turned out to be our Achilles heel. It's high time our defense forces, netas and babus stopped being crabby about "security". Alliances are the order of the day. Without that we won't be given access to vital instruments and technologies. Time to get rid of our socialist mindset which has given us only poverty and backwardness.

Ram said...

Americans all said and done are first rate cheats when it comes to stopping of equipment to its vendors. We have seen this happen to manu countries across the world. On one hand they do business with you, charge you high for a in complete equipment on the other hand your hands are tied with such sort of memorandums. I am not aware of the contents of the contract between Indian and US to purchase these air craft, but if the aircrafts are incomplete in any way then we need to address the issue with the Israel for alternate and much more effective components.

grpcpt said...

these thing were hung as all software used to run these equipment were closed coded and the usa said they cannot give assurance on spyware, and all satellite base dts were routed thru american communication satellites, but since we have had a new military satellite in orbit which dont runs 3 bands we dont need made in usa stuff

Kunal said...

Hi friends! no need to get unduly worked up. Nothing extremely critical has been held back. Let me try n do some exposition here, item by item:
1> IFF - all of India's tactical a/c have this system. IAF is basically using system co-developed by DRDO n Thales.
2> Secure-voice HF/UHF/VHF & Single channel - do you folks think any air force (incl.PAF) can operate without these in today's environ. Every AF has it.
3> SATCOM - Do you seriously imagine a networked AF like IAF communicating between satellite-AWAC-UAV-combat a/c-ground could have been networked without these.

All of the above are purely software-heavy tactical communication systems which are basically encrypted encoded algos per each ones own requirements. India surely has its own NCW algo codes n therefore not dependent.

Readers are requested to look up JTRS (Joint Tactical Radio System) in Wiki for details.

Shailendra said...

@Shiv,
I think these are not big things to be left out. INDIA will fix their own in these air crafts.
Just tell me thing, are we paying full ? I mean if these things are left out, cost is also reduced ?

I hope this is common sennse. But we are discussing common sense of GOI and babus :D

Shiv Aroor said...

Quick reminder: Lots of comments coming in with cuss words and profanities. Be informed that these won't be posted here, so you're wasting your time, really. Either comment without being unnecessarily profane, or comment elsewhere. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

So, nothing of any real significance has been left out. Correct ? We are after all, talking about a transport aircraft. It isn't as if an AWACS or surveillance platform is being delivered without its "crown jewels". Or am I missing something here ?

Anonymous said...

Though even I don't like it, I feel that we must sign the CISMOA. This is because I feel we must have some kind of a data redundancy built onto American satelites and their military networks. Here's why... one of the first acts of any future Chinese attack on us will be a massive hacking of our IT/communication networks and anti-satellite attacks. They know this is where we are stronger than them and hence they'll want to neutralize that advantage. So, the chinks will hack apart our 'AFNET's and blow up our RISATs because they know we depend on them.

But they won't dare do anything against American networks or satelites for fear of an equally strong retaliation from the yanks. So... to avoid being made 'data blind' by the chinkis, it makes sense that we start using systems "administered by the US Air Force" just in case.

Anonymous said...

Guys wht is wrong with India.....they pay billions of dollars to US to fuel their economy by purchasing military hardware...and we don't get all the technologies....just read an article in TOI which stated that Indian Defense orders are creating 30,000 jobs in US...

Anonymous said...

@ anon @ 5 Pm
going by the china argument...we should join US as full time ally...that way the chinese wont launch an attack at all!!

Anonymous said...

stay away from american hardware. period. it always comes with too many strings attached. what is mentioned here is just tip of the iceberg im sure.

Anonymous said...

Well the US will prefer to 'gift' all those to Pakistan rather than 'selling' them to India at excessively high prices.

Anonymous said...

Keep away from kill-switch laden gear and signing any treaties. Inspite of having been beaten by current economic situation the big Uncle does not give delusions of imperialist order and keeps coming up with treaties and more treaties when only thing we promise them is more money. Ironically it uses the term "freedom" and "liberty" the most!

Naresh said...

Excellent scoop, Shiv. I don't know whether to believe that this gear is crucial or dispensable. One way or the other, it is being kept away from us, and that should ring a bell in the minds of our leaders. My other point is this: if our strategic dynamic is anyway tilting towards Washington, why not go the whole hog and sign the CISMOA, BECA et al? What is the point of this half-way house when you get their equipment but don't gain any true interoperability? I agree with the commenter above, however, about avoiding kill-switch laden equipment. It just spells bad news for a country with India's aspirations.

Anonymous said...

OK looks like there are so many different opinions here.
But As I count Shiv as expert....
Shiv Can you please tell us what you think about this caveats?
Do you think that we should get worried? or It will be fine?

Anonymous said...

Kunal!!! IFF is made by HAL & BEL!!! DRDO CABS may be making for their programme!!!

Anonymous said...

Would you trust anything made by HAL in these expensive planes? i hope it doesn't come to that.

Gautam said...

Bah. The Indian government has made much ado of something and spurned an offer of friendship quoting irrelevant topics like Pakistan that won't change anytime soon.

Regardless of the CISMOA mess, why the hell hasn't the IAF contracted third-party defence suppliers to supply equipment of the desired standards? The US isn't the only country in the world that manufactures military transport planes. Top-end military-grade systems like the C-130J's can be obtained from Russian, Israeli or European vendors. Instead the idiotic MOD is willing to compromise the C-130's main advantage(technology) for commercial low-grade gear.

Anonymous said...

Here is timely help:

Airbus Military Targets India For A400M...

In India, Airbus Military will argue the A400M can fill a niche between the Boeing C-17 and Lockheed Martin C-130J that the country already is looking to buy. India is considering issuing a request for information for an airlifter than could transport large goods and land on airstrips without concrete runways.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=india&id=news/awx/2010/10/14/awx_10_14_2010_p0-262086.xml

keshto said...

Pi8 is a dud without CISMOA, you can not add on, modify it once you have signed the EUMA as India already has.

As for as interoperablity is concerned, India has done more Military Exercises with the USA than with any other country.


Since communists no longer hold our parliamentarians hostage against US arms sale a la Trenton, and MMS has assured India that while it needs high tech, it will make sure that our sovergnity is not compromised. Its time we signed CISMOA.

If trojans have to come, they will be imbedded into any (India destined) system no matter what - should the USA so wants it. But then US will have to bid adios to its hefty arms sale to Indians.


Indian overture to Uncle Sam has another important angle - that of UNSC permanent seat, lets not jeopardise it.

IMO CISMOA should not be treated as fly in the ointment case - there is much more to it than what meets the eye, in India´s favour.

Ps note that we have signed 1-2-3 agreement where we did not have an upper hand, and thus we unofficially agreed not to test again, something that was of paramount concern than signing CISMOA.

Anonymous said...

Big effin deal, IFF and V/UHF systems are available in India and from vendors abroad and will come without inspections. Who needs the CISMOA storm in a teacup

Anonymous said...

In the unlikely event of India-China war and China using all there might to kill our communication support systems, the USA will not be just a mute spectator and not help us, just because we have not signed the agreement. USA just can't afford to let China gain supremacy in Asia, so either it will extend its support of infrastructure like Satellite, ground radar and other stuff to India without the Agreement..or India itself will proactively agree to sign and do whatever it takes to counteract China.

Anonymous said...

Shiv you said: QUOTE i've merely put out the official list of what's pulled out of the config as a result of the CISMOA hanging. nowhere have I said it wouldn't be half as useful without this gear. that's something a lot of other reports suggest, and the US hints at too. UNQUOTE

That is being disingenuous. To bbe balanced, if you are reporting what other commentators have said, you also need to report what the chief of the airforce said about the lack of these equipment. By reporting only one side you are presenting a biased view. I am sure that is not your goal!

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