Sunday, October 24, 2010

India's Future Infantry Combat Vehicle

From the latest DRDO Tech Focus issue: "Indigenous development of the Indian ICV Abhay has led to the creation of technology base and know-how for the envisaged development of a Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). The programme has also enabled identification of suitable industry partners, and has created pools of excellence in development of ICV sub systems The system integration capability at lab level has enhanced to a significant level, which will facilitate undertaking technology intensive programme. Development of FICV was derived mainly due to breakthrough technologies and developments in automobile industry worldwide and to meet the long-term requirements of the Services. To realise the FICV within the time frame visualised by the Army and to use the lead time available DRDO has taken the initiative to commence a technology demonstration project,'Development of Enabling Technologies' for FICV to develop a virtual prototype of complete vehicle."

Copyright DRDO Tech Focus

69 comments :

sanu said...

First we should b focussing on to building a capable armoured troops carrier!!main flaws in existing carrier-below grade weak frame for long heavy usage,underpowered engine still fuel guzzling & for heavens sake cant we make a vehicle wid decent luks,last time I saw a armoured vehicle which luked like a mental hospital vans,SERIOUSLY?back 2 tha news,why this thing lukin like t72?same frame!bas karo yaar,pehle tank,phir namika aur ab ye!hadh ho gayi.

Gagan said...

Only one rear exit door?
That is bad. You need two such doors to allow troops to be able to exit quickly.

This design looks like a cold war russian design xerox, with a few tweaks thrown in.

I hope it is loaded with features. Otherwise there is another battle ahead between this and the US Stryker similar to the Arjun vs T-90 tank battle.

indian said...

shiva plz update is this FICV good one are just another project (WTPMP) wasting tax payer money project

..........god know how it performs

lspk said...

also in your earlier posts you had said that you will post a more detailed report on :
1)Agni 2+
2)India's hypersonic re-entry vehicle(along with lrsam,mrsam,etc)
3)Could you also bring more info on AURA, Akash SAM mk2, Brahmos2, LCA tejas mk2 and most importantly F-INSAS?

Gautam said...

I was under the impression that the FICV project would be given to the private sector to help create an Indian defence industrial base. Don't tell me the Socialist MoD is giving everything to DRDO and Avadi Heavy Vehicle factory again. Not only will it create another unfair monopoly, deadlines will also suffer horribly because DRDO/HVF is already encumbered with T-72 upgrades, T-90 production, Arjun production and the Future MBT program, which is already more than they can handle.

If this is true defence PSU greed knows no bounds. An IFV would be pretty easy to create just by partnering up with Ukraine as a subcontractor/design overseer as others have done instead of reinventing the wheel.

Gautam said...

BTW the Abhay was rejected by the Army as being too outdated in design. This one doesn't look much more advanced.

Anonymous said...

This already looks like the troop carrier used by US army for the past several decades.

Even the US is opting for wheeled vehicles instead of tracked vehicles. Turkey has developed it's own troop carrier. Pls check that out.

This looks like reverse engineering an old design.

DRDO nahi chalega. Thumbs down.

KVR said...

WHats so futuristic about reinventing the wheel? this time with a BMP ?

ani78i said...

chodo yar.drdo wale gadha-majduri kar rahe he koi fyada nahi.go to amricen stryker and make india superpower and make money from dalali. BE HAPPY.

Anonymous said...

@Gautam

Who is stopping the Pvt sector from designing and developing their own combat vehicles? Let them build and market their own vehicles with their OWN RESOURCES.

On the contrary it is the crude Indian baniya Pvt sector which is not content with selling trash to our beleaguered populace, now wants to encroach in defense sector (neck deep in corruption). No wonder whole bunch of them are opposing FDI in defense industries thereby retarding the growth of this vital sector like elsewhere in our economy.

Anonymous said...

It does look a lot like the old Soviet BMP design, but what did you expect, we have been license building the BMPs for long time and it is only logical that you use that as your starting point.

For your first design, there is nothing wrong with making improvements to an existing design to fix its short comings - its a low risk way to learn the ropes of designing and building ICVs and still produce something that is better what you currently have.

cujo

Anonymous said...

As usual a super ugly contraption. Can't they hire some fresh grads from National Institute of Design?

Anonymous said...

"created pools of excellence",
"Development of Enabling technologies",
"develop a virtual prototype of complete vehicle."

nice phrases but scary.

Arjun took 32 years, how long would Abhay go?

- nanovacuum(US)

Anonymous said...

I must agree with a lot of bloggers here - "its does look like a redesigned BMP2". That said, I dont see why this should be a bad thing. BMP2 was a big success and has served as well so far. Improvements to its armour, powerplant and armament should create a pretty well rounded fighting vehicle. But it is still pretty doggone ugly. Needs a flatter, sleeker, fully electric turret. Hopefully this piece will incorporate a next-gen active protection and jammer suite. Lets see, still just a concept. Hopefully the end result will be a lot more impressive.

Gagan said...

Just as our 'wise' old film directors of bollywood recycle hollywood movies, our 'wise' old DRDO seniors recycle old cold war russian designs.

This is a BMP design, with what appears to be one single rear door. Atleast the BMP had two rear doors for each side, so that the soldiers could enter and exit quickly, the DRDO wise men have put in one single door, just as our bollywood directors change the end of the xerox copied hollywood film with a slightly different ending.

One would have thought that DRDO would design an infantry combat vehicle that would have both wheeled and tracked versions, like the chinese have done.

The other fear is that now that the Army-wallahs have exercised with the US built Stryker, there is a chance that they will go in for that via the FMS route of procurement. DRDO has to be very careful and will really really pull its act together, because now the competition is not some russian product that they are up against. They are now up against the LATEST US BUILT PRODUCT, which the US military-industrial complex will do all that it can to shove down India's throat.

Best of luck DRDO, you are now in the arena with the biggest and baddest fighters in the business. And if this is what you intend to build, then bhagwaan hi bachaye.

Unless the chankiyan HVF avadi knows that no matter who wins, DRDO / US, license production will happen at HVF, so where is the incentive to innovate?

Anonymous said...

Nice to see the development of FICV taking place. After successfully demonstrating the Abhay technology it's a good step forward to induct this FICV on time. Also the Army must be brought in to know their exact requirements etc and make them a partner in the project. Ensure that there is no change here or there while the work is going on, or else the responsibility of the change and the time be on the Army. But stick to time frame and deliver the tech on time just like the Abhay development timeframe.

Anonymous said...

Shiv, it seems there are a lot of Pakis spitting in your forum. So better kick these thugs out.

Ram said...

Obviously the Army has been consulted before such a main frame prototype is developed. The Turret looks advanced with the chip at the back. My question is is this being devised keeping in view high altitude war fare in the North and north east. The gun bore should be slightly larger for being used in high altitudes. Apart from this the unit also needs to be lighter than any of its present counter part for easier transportation.

Anonymous said...

DODO being creative guys. They have to use technology that is available to make it indigenous...whilst importing the engine, hydrolics...etc...India at its most indigenous!!!!

Anonymous said...

one wonders what the reactions would have been if this were posted as say a design from another country...

Anonymous said...

Quite amazing how your learned readers could figure out the number of doors without having the views from all sides...

@ nanovaccum(US)...
the arjun that took 32 years is better than what the army has (and is still adding to its fleet)....

PS: is the US bit supposed to impress others??

Sai said...

why the hell do we always go for a rear/mid section turret? doesnt it reduce the gun elevation angle?

sincerely
Sai

Anonymous said...

is this a joke ? DRDO is making new 5th gen plane, a FMBT, Upgraded Arjun, a new software sytem,a new 155 gun a new " u name it ". what next ? DRDO is very good at making announcements and not following it up.

Gautam said...

Anon @ 10:11PM

You speak like a true-red commie who has created a distorted version of the world where his ilk are the best. Since when has DRDO or the ordinance factories developed anything with their OWN RESOURCES instead of TAXPAYER'S HARD EARNED MONEY? Yesterday I read about Air India(the most despised airline by the Indian traveller) asking for 3000cr more taxpayer money as 'cash infusion' to get out of bankruptcy. If pvt sector sells trash then why are the PSUs going broke? Because unlike you the majority of the Indian public loves that it can choose and they have chosen what is best. Without monopoly your beloved PSUs are bankrupt trash.

BTW how fast is that PSU MTNL connection you must be using? My MTNL phone has been out of order for months but no doubt yours is a different experience from the great PSU product. Meanwhile I'm loving this new 3MBps private sector internet connection.

Mertz said...

Maybe the issue is that DRDO has its hand in lots of pies. This could be due lots of requirments coming in from the forces. So if they don't do anything, they will get the blame. Or if they patch together something quickly, they get blamed for not being in the top quadrant. They can't win. These things take time. I have seen many times indians make fun of chinese copies but realistically that is the only way unless off course you have been in this specific business for few decades.

Anonymous said...

Gautam

Today all PSUs have to compete in the open market and DRDO is not a PSU.

It is not there to sell goods and commodities to the Indian public. It is owned by the people of India to acquire capabilities in making state of the art defense eqp inhouse.

Whereas a seth Dharamdas owned Laxmi Chini mill is not owned by the people of India. It is a Pvt property and if it wants to sell anything, it has to build that product using it's own resources, not the Public's money, and compete in the mkt with other players.

Why are our TATAs, Birlas, Mahendra's stopping 100% FDI in defense sector? They did similar thing with our country's economy and India was one of the most poorest country with one of the few richest men in the world.

Rest of what you have written are trash like your guru Ajai Shukla, who is paid by Business Std. to denigrate India's defense sector in favor of few crooked Baniyas who have kept the entire nation tied to medieval ages.

Btw, it doesn't matter whether I am a commie or a Bhajpa like you who wants to sell nation's assets to few unscrupulous baniyas at rock bottom prices.

Gautam said...

Anon @ 8:23PM

Lol now you're flinging allegations of being paid off by private sector to spread propaganda? That's one of the first signs of Socialist paranoia.

The defence PSUs and Ordinance Factories are not owned by the people any more than any VIP luxury plane. They are owned and run by the GOVERNMENT using taxpayer money.

And if preferring private to PSU means being a sellout, then the vast majority of the Indian consumers are sellouts and traitors. May you rare unionised patriots live forever leeching tax money from our pockets to bail out sick PSUs all in public interest!

Like Mertz said, exactly what right does DRDO and the DPSUs have to monopolise each and every R & D project when even they themselves complain that they can't handle so many things?

The answer is, Commie lies about how private sector are nothing but greedy crooks(like there's no corruption in PSUs and government) does nothing to change the fact that if private sector was wholeheartedly allowed into defence production instead of being sidelines by our current MoD, then just like in every other deregularised sector the customer( in this case Armed Forces) will prefer their products to that of the PSUs.

Already we see shades of that with the Navy constantly crying its preference for L & T and Pipavav for warships and then getting overruled by Antony & co in favour of Hindustan Shipyards. Are they traitors too, great rare patriotji?

Save your repetitive derogatory arguments. I've heard them all right here. I am not going to change your mindset, so be happy in your socialism while the rest of the world around you moves on. We have nothing more to talk about, though perhaps you have another potshot to give.

Anonymous said...

That concept seems outdated looks like an old BMP-2 better buy licensed production of Patria or other proven western IFV

KUKZ said...

This is a 70s tec model, Almost like minor changes on BMP-2, A 21st century ICFV/APC should be well armored from sides and front ( Not like BMP-2 ) passenger should increase to 10 rather what we have is 8 on BMP, The vehicle should accommodate trooper of height exceeding 6ft, And most importantly the turret should be unmanned ( RCWS ) the turret must have all the firepower what BMP-2 have now or more, I don't see such things in this model, But i hope to see better in future....

Anonymous said...

anon@11:43 AM:

It's o.k. if you don't get it! But let me give it another try:

on the first one, try to catch up with what is called "time perspective" together with the "opportunities lost" aspect of it.

If the participation in a discussion forum is international, it's only fair to indicate one's country of residence so that others can take a guess on their "bias", "media exposure" as well as "the value perspective".

Last word said!
Impressed?

- nanovacuum (US)

Anonymous said...

Gautam

OOOOOhhh I see defense PSUs are not owned by the people but by the Government using taxpayers money. And Govt belongs to whom??

On the contrary, it is the Pvt sector that is demanding "protection" from foreign competition.No wonder they have stopped FDI more than 50% in defense and several sectors of the economy. It is they who are not letting MNCs in retail, financial, services, education etc. apart from the defense sector. If 100% FDI is allowed then who will partner with these crap Indian companies in finance, insurance, defense, services etc. etc.?

Height of twisting the truth. On the contrary the MOD wanted role of Pvt sector in manufacturing of warships but the navy has strongly vetoed such move. Instead they want 2 subs to be made entirely in foreign countries and the remaining 4 in Govt owned setups. They have taken a right decision as they don't want to give a blank cheque to such corrupt incompetent Indian companies with no expertise or specialization in building ships. They want Indian taxpayers to fund their adventures.

I am neither a socialist nor a capitalist. I am an advocate of competition and free trade. Not typical Indian crony capitalism which you seem to favor.

Btw, Ajai Shukla is employed by Business standard. If he does not advocates the interests of those who employ him, why should they continue to use his services??

Anonymous said...

@nanoV
Thats my point....
right now we are looking @ a tank for 2020..without releasing proper funds for it....and by the time the funds come out we will have lost a good 20-30% of the development period.
But the blame eventually has to be shouldered by DRDO for that
at the same time if it were a pvt company that was being provided with specific amount of funds what would the approach have been ??

and another thing is...dont tie R&D to manufacture..two different ballgames.....(this is a general request not just @ nanoV)


btw.... Your posts make clear your bias and i dont think country of residence will necessarily have anything to do with that :)


@ Gautam
u too are making allegations ...so let others do the same...

If you call others "true-red commie" etc for their viewpoints why shouldn't you be called an agent for pvt companies?

Stop bending over backwards in praise for the pvt sector.....how come only the govt is corrupt but the pvt companies that bribe them are all angels???
agreeably the govt employee shoulders more blame....but the payer is not completely innocent.

Gautam said...

Claiming that the likes of L & T, Tata and Mahindra are nothing but crook 'baniyas' is nothing more than derogatory bullshit. Were they given the same support and funding as Indian defence PSUs and foreign private firms get from their governments they'd run circles around DRDO. You know it, even the PSU employees know that, hence all the strikes and union threats back when the Rashtriya Udyog Ratna scheme was planned.

There are over a dozen modern IFVs in the international market today. If we want a cheap one then we should just tie up with Ukraine for a derivative of their new BTR-3/4 line instead of going back to the old BMP-1/2.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 12.06 AM

I support Gautam on this.... All i can do is beg for a chance to Private sector on this matter... We have given N number of chances to DRDO\HAL and other MoD owned firms... Why shdn't we give a try for a change....you dont have to provide all the financial\moral support that u had provided to MoD owned firms all this time, just provide them a fraction of it and see what happens....

Anonymous said...

Gautam et all

First of all, MNCs in defense sector have proved their mettle by coming up with winning products.It's only after this that they have been aided and funded by the Govt. Indian companies are yet to produce a decent two wheeler, let alone advanced defense eqp.

The Indian industry, when it is finding itself cornered in an increasingly globalized competitive environment is looking for safe havens, and here which can be better than defense sector where they can stop any competition under the pretext of "security".Just like they have been doing under the license permit raj.
It is these companies which have kept India from achieving her true potential. This has also led to few unscrupulous characters reach the lost of world's top 5 richest men from chawls of "kabutarkhana". This has been possible due to babu-neta-baniya nexus which has led to theft of trillions $ of India's wealth stashed away in secret foreign accounts.

Tata, Mahendra and L&T have one of the crappiest mgt. They have not been able to come up with even one world class product.

Mr. Ra said...

Under the given circumstances, DRDO may be doing their best for the development of a future ICV.

However they will be doing still better, if they manage to take more help from some sincere pvt sectors.

Anonymous said...

Mr.Ra first let our Pvt. sector "sincerely" pay their taxes and regularly deposit their employees PF with Govt.This in itself will be a big help in bolstering the nation's defense.

Gautam said...

As I predicted the Socialists just can't see anything other than 'Private corrupt/lazy/useless, government shining success'. You're welcome. Meanwhile let's admire the countless scams in every government-run institution ranging from IPL to Coal India Ltd while driving home in our Tata/Mahindra cars(Oops! I thought they can't manufacture even 2-wheelers? Where are those Indian PSU automakers again? None whatsoever?).

Anonymous said...

MNC means Multi National Country. Dow Chemicals of Bhopal gas fame was one.

Non of those Vaunted defense MNC's have ever bothered to set up base in India for the last 60 years and you want to blame the Indian Pvt. Companies for that? Pathetic.

Foreign MNC's get funding @ 3%. Indian companies get funding @ 14% that too after being forced to bribe everybody from the peon in the government office to the highest official from a Public sector bank. The actual cost of fund would be around 18% to 21%.

Foreign companies get access to latest technologies. Indian companies dont due to embargo on hi-tech due to lobying from these International MNC's.

International MNC's get to hire and fire people. Indian Companies are forced to keep inefficient and lazy work force due to labour union threats.

International MNC's have bankruptcy laws to protect themselves. Indian pvt. companies, if they make a loss, the owners looses their homes and their shirts.

International MNC's take money away from the nation. Indian pvt. companies create wealth for the nation.

International MNC's have built up using Indian money which was thrown away by the British raj during WW1 and WW2. They have used out wealth to wage war against us and arm our enemies. Indian pvt. companies take enormous risk to create equipments for our defence forces only to be insulted and laughed at.

I am aware that Indian Defense forces and Public sector units live in an amazing cocoon provided by the Indian tax payers, But I never thought their ignorance is so profound. DISGUSTING.

Anonymous said...

BTW, no body in the Pvt. sector pays bribes because they love to, they pay because they are forced to.

Given a choice, all of us would like to be honest.

What excuse does the Defense forces and Public sector have for their dishonesty ?

Ruchi said...

It look like from WW-2. How many RPG it can sustain ??? We already building BMP-2 in hundreds. We need to built more advanced like BMP-3 with big gun like china.

Gautam said...

Brilliant, anon @ 4:29PM. You hit the nail on it. I would like to add that many of those benefits(job security, bankruptcy protection) are handed to PSUs by the Indian government. To think they still get their asses kicked in the commercial sector despite these handouts and unfair practices is a testament to the hard work and enterpreneurship of our private sector.

BTW Socialists, before you ask private sector to pay more taxes how about telling our tax-dodging netas and babus to pay up and bring back their black money first? And to loss-making PSUs like Air India to stop drinking infinite crores of your tax money to keep themselves in business?

Anonymous said...

Gautam

You get to know the scams etc. in govt run outfits bcoz it is considered to be an exception. Whereas in Indian Pvt sector stealing, cheating, not paying taxes are the norm. How many of the Indian companies actually pay the tax that they are supposed to pay?

The Govt etc. is literally run by the taxes that these PSUs pay (particularly the oil PSUs) and the income tax from the honest hard working middle class in services. The rich and the poor do not pay taxes.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:29 PM

For someone who doesn't even knows what MNC stands for, it seems strange passing judgments on them.

MNCs have not been allowed to invest in India by the Govt at the behest of our corrupt incompetent Pvt sector. They want that MNC investments in India should flow thru them. Thereby raising the cost of the final product which will be borne by the ignorant masses. Mahendra's tie up with BAE is a case in point. No wonder they were the only company which was not black listed in the howitzer competition.
Why can't Indian companies develop cutting edge technologies? Why should MNCs part what they have spent years and billions on development?
Hire and fire is prevalent even in Indian Pvt companies.
If Indian companies create wealth for the nation, then why was India in such pathetic state prior to partially opening up our economy? It is only few business houses that were milking the country dry with their sub standard vintage products. No wonder they can't innovate any quality product and constantly look for protection from foreign competition.
Indian Pvt companies hardly make any defense eqp, so stop talking crap.

Anonymous said...

gautam

Which tata car you are talking about the one that bursts into flames and is known as "cheapest car in the world" or the ones favored only by taxi drivers?

I didn't know Mahendras manufactured cars? Are you mistaking a jeep for a car??

Last I heard, it was Maruti which happened to be the most popular car brand in India. I hope you know that Maruti till recently used to be a PSU?

Anonymous said...

It's not called bribe, it is called wetting the beak.

The same companies are awarded contracts year after year. No new entrants are allowed at the behest of these corrupt incompetent Indian companies. They operate like mafias. This babu-baniya-neta nexus is the biggest enemy of India. It is not China or Pakistan.

Gautam said...

I hope the deluded Commies remember that each and every one of Maruti's products right from the 80s was licence-built Suzuki models, just like this ICV is essentially a licence-built BMP-2.

Anonymous said...

As usual the Commies have nothing to say but false allegations about how corruption is the norm in private sector(based on brainwashing rather than knowledge or experience) and how government is usually hard-working and efficient(again brainwashing and wanting to make themselves look good). Probably while speaking from the most poorly developed states of Indiaa like Kerala and West Bengal, run by more Commies. It's like a cult.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6.26 PM

People from BIMARU states must not throw stones.

Anonymous said...

gautam

So what is your Ambassador, Padmini etc.?
How much of Tata vehicles are designed and built in India?
At least the Maruti was latest design. Not vintage vehicles like Ambassador and PP.

Gautam said...

Commieboy, that's what happens when your brain confuses facts with propaganda and refuses to acknowledge anything other than what your taught. Ambassador is made by Hindustan Motors which is owned by Unilever, a PRIVATE firm.

And Maruti 800(sorry, Suzuki Alto) was anything but the 'latest' design even when it came out. In any case you'd be a biased fool not to acknowledge the extent of Tata and Mahindra's indigenous R & D instead of just licence-building 100% foreign designs like PSUs so often do.

But you are biased and you know it. You just don't want to shatter the old viewpoint that you've followed for so long. For a Socialist self-pride in his Socialist principles conquers all forms of truth. Hence you blindly rant and generalise while knowing fully well what facts you are ignoring or exaggerating: because that's how you dream of the world to be.

Anonymous said...

Gautam

Do you know how stupid and foolish you sound? Your last comment shows your lack of knowledge about even basic things, forget advanced def tech.

Unilever makes Automobiles???? And it owns Hindustan Motors?? ROFLMAO.
Since when manufacturer of soaps and detergents started making vintage Ambassador cars?
HM is owned by CK Birla. Ambassador is 1956 Morris Oxford which UK stopped manufacturing in 1959.
PP is Fiat.
Tata trucks and buses are still those ancient ultra low quality vehicles. Mahendra is still trying to evolve from vintage WWII era jeeps.
From your comments it seems your brain is getting addled.
Bhajpa Baniya brigade has people like you as it's supporters, no wonder it is loosing in all states. Btw, I am not a commie Bhajpa "uncle".

Anonymous said...

Gautam Uncle

Unilever is not a Private Firm, it's an MNC. Hope you know the difference between the two.

Gautam said...

Well aren't the Commies happy I made a mistake. But it doesnt change the fact that they were hopelessly wrong: Hindustan Motors is a PRIVATE company, there are no government carmakers in India. Netas and Babus drive Ambassadors, Marutis, Tatas and Mercedes. Probably so do these fronthing-at-the-mouth Commie hate- peddlers.

The same Birla group whom you pathological liars were badmouthing before btw. Interesting. How's your socialist pride?

Anonymous said...

Gautam Uncle,

Who's the commie here? Anybody who criticizes the babu-baniya-neta nexus becomes a commie? Fyi, I don't even bother to vote coz all the netas are thieves and career criminals. I am an "aam janata".

This is precisely what I am trying to convey, HM, a typical corrupt Indian Pvt Company is peddling a vintage vehicle which the world stopped manufacturing in 1959, to corrupt babus and netas.How many pieces of silver do they pay to our babus and netas to continue to force our PSUs and other Govt institutions to patronize only their vintage rubbish? Such companies have forced Govt to tie up MNCs with their companies for sale of any defense product in India. Pray tell me how BAE is tying up with Mahendra or STF with Punj Llyod, companies with zero exposure to defense sector? Don't you think these MNCs will jack up the price of the final product for bringing in more middlemen where none are required?
It's not the job of the Govt to manufacture cars, so the Govt prudently got off from the business of manufacturing and selling cars.
Socialist pride? Add Nationalist and it becomes Nationalist Socialist aka Nazis. Are you one of them?

Anonymous said...

Gautam bhajpa chacha,

We were talking about Hindustan Lever aka Unilever, not Hindustan Motors. Again you are getting mixed up.

Gautam said...

BTW to the retard who said the people own the government and therefore the PSUs

1)Myself, the beggar on the roadside and the tea shop owner all have equal ownership and control over the govenrment: NONE WHATSOEVER. We can vote for them and MAYBE elections won't be rigged and MAYBE they'll not be corrupt and renege on their promises(unlikely), but don't delude yourself any more than you have.

2)Even if you do 'own' someone, do you own everything they own as well? If you get promoted by your boss' choice does he automatically own your house, your car and anything else you buy with your money? Now stop spewing sewage about how PSUs are 'public' property.

Gautam said...

For the fellow who badmouthed HM for selling Amby, doesn't the government-owned Vehicle Factory Jabalpur(VFJ) do the same with their 60-year old vintage Shaktiman trucks(licence-built from a 1950's MAN truck model)?

What's your point? Corruption or no corruption, one thing that's very clear is that given the money and incentive private companies WILL deliver better than PSUs because there's no bureacracy and because they actually have to worry about profits and don't have the assurance of taxpayer bailouts.

This is a naked truth abundant in every single sector where a PSU has to compete with private cos. I'm sure even you know it well, yet you spew bile about 'Private baniyas bad, PSU goooood cuz I sez'.

Anonymous said...

Gautam

How many Shaktiman do you find with the Army today? They have replaced them with TATA trucks.

Point is why should we give money to Pvt Cos.? They are supposed to innovate and come up with their own products, which must compete with other similar products. This is the very edifice of competition, free market and capitalism.

My friend the Govt has long stopped bankrolling sick PSUs. So cut the crap. And don't tell me "WILL", tell me "HAVE" Indian Pvt Cos come up with any world class product in more than half century?

I am not white washing PSUs. Yes they too have to deliver or else they have to shut their shop. That's why so many PSUs have been privatized and will be privatized. End of the day it is open competition.

PSUs concentrate on capital intensive nation building projects which do not yield quick returns.In these areas there is hardly any scope for Pvt Cos. If they have capabilities they can be partnered. Looking at Indian navy's experience with L&T, it doesn't seems too encouraging.

Gautam said...

Yes, the Army is replacing the 'quality' vintage PSU trucks with Tata private baniya low-quality vehicles. What traitors they are, eh Mr. Patriot?

Why do we give money to PSUs then? Why don't they innovate with the profits(if any) they make?

Don't kid yourself, the Congress has steadfastly been Socialist in its approach towards sick PSUs since it came to power. Because all PSUs have unions, and unions mean votes. The privatisation process was stopped and the Ministry of Disinvestment shut down almost immediately after the UPA came to power.

If this were NDA, for example, Air India would have been privatised immediately after the recent debacle instead of giving 3000cr 'equity infusions' right now.

The fact that you are steadfastly ignoring and dismissing all examples of private sector progress that are obvious around you and singing blind praise for the PSUs who haven't even accomplished as much shows that there is no point trying to argue with you here.

'Nation building projects'. The sole reason they do it is because the government orders them too. As is done abroad Pvt cos would do the same if the government asked them to(as it is they DO do a lot of infrastructure projects in India, like the Mumbai Metro for example). Also ever heard of Airtel's rural telephony efforts?

Gautam said...

As for the Indian navy's experience with L & T, you are only proving my point. The Navy has been so impressed that they wanted L & T to handle the 2nd submarine production line. It was once again because of AK Antony and Pallam Raju's hardcore Socialism that PSU shipyards MDL and HSL got all four indigenous sub production contracts(with remaining two being supplied wholesale by foreign supplier). Heck, even the news articles explicitly mentioned how the MoD ignored the Navy planners' directives and went PSU instead of L & T.

The PSUs can only survive with government-sanctioned patronage and/or monopoly. The only way to build a credible, competitive defence industry in India is to cultivate the private sector to do so.

Anonymous said...

Gautam,

Just like for you HLL = HM, likewise Navy wanted Pvt sector participation and that is why they explicitly mentioned that they want 2 subs to be made exclusively in foreign countries and rest 4 in so called inefficient PSUs. proof of the pudding is in eating it. Navy has eaten the Indian Baniya Pvt sector rabdi and spat it out.LOL!

Pvt r struggling to manufacture decent 2 and 4 wheelers, whereas PSUs have sent probes to the Moon. Let the Pvt sector manufacture and launch something like GSLV and PSLV. Now don't cry for Govt help, as SpaceX, Virgin Galactic etc. are building and launching rockets with their own resources. Let our Mahendras, Birlas, Tatas etc. something similar.
OK let them at least build a Dhruv if not a Tejas or PSLV. :)

Anonymous said...

It is due to BJP Baniya party's antics that our Tejas and other defense projects got delayed due to stringent sanctions.

All those profit making PSUs that were privatized were sold by BJP Baniya Party at rock bottom prices to these few utter corrupt and incompetent Indian business houses. This is nothing but theft of nation's resources. Today what is the condition of those PSUs that were privatized? All their assets have been stripped and they have been reduced to a shell of their former self. This is what corporate raiders do. They look for those Cos with low share value and high asset value. Purchase them at rock bottom prices, strip them of all their assets. This is what this BJP baniya party did to these profitable PSUs which were doing so well.

Anonymous said...

If there is an accident between a Shaktiman and Tata which will survive that accident? Tata truck or Shaktiman truck???

Gautam said...

Dear lord, so many dreamers and propagandaists here!

Whenever they are debunked they close their eyes and ears('see no evil/truth, hear no evil/truth') continue with more retarded half-truths and fabrications. With the combination of their foul mouths I wonder if they are members of the Red parties with their specially bred gangs.

What profit making PSU did BJP sell? Modern foods? Centaur hotels? How inefficient and loss-making they were before is well-documented. They turned profit only after privatisation and have now become well-known brands. Likewise with VSNL.

And liarboy, you will no doubt try to bend, twist and mutilate this inside your warped brain, but if you bothered following the news Navy originally wanted ALL SIX submarines to be built by L & T. It is only because of your Commie MoD and their monopolists that the tender said 'Four PSU, two private' and finally 'Four PSU, two imported'. Even the articles mentioned explicitly that the defence acquisition council was going against the Navy's wishes by granting four submarines to HSL instead of L & T.

That's just how it is with Socialism and PSUs in India. You will bend and manipulate the circumstances to give PSUs monopoly and/or unfair advantage, then gloat about how you are superior to private sector and how privates aren't doing anything for defence(Because of you, you thug!).

Gautam said...

It's a good thing the NDA de-regularised and opened up so many sectors before they were voted out of power. Because of that today's generation lives with the gift of choice and clarity. In another couple of decades the self-deluding Socialist breed will become extinct.

Anonymous said...

Gautam

Have you seen what abomination the Centaur Hotel has become? Since it's scam ridden "privatization" it has been cocooned inside an ugly contraption. The real owners are Amar Singh and Amitabh bachan via Sahara Group.
Modern Bread used to be ubiquitous in our grocery stores, today are hardly found anywhere.
Ditto same with VSNL a multi billion institution which was sold for a song to the Tata family and now has hardly any name. Tata telecom are yet to prove their mettle inspite of VSNL acquisition. IPCL, another venerable name sold for a pittance to ultra corrupt Reliance Group. No sign of that company today.
Since you have been cornered and shown to be a fool, you have resorted to abusing.LOL!
Forward me the link where it is mentioned that Pvt Cos were favored by Navy over PSUs for the construction of Subs.

Anonymous said...

BJP Bhajpa Baniya Party sold the nation's assets for a pittance to these ultra corrupt baniyas who back them to keep their seats warm i.e. with hold foreign competition and thereby peddle vintage products (acquired from abroad) at exorbitant prices. This baniya-babu-neta nexus is keeping away foreign investments as a result India is having more poor people than Sub Saharan countries. It is this race of middlemen aka Baniyas who are keeping the masses poor by purchasing their products for a song and selling the same stuff at king's ransom price.

Gautam said...

And why hate a company and its employees because you hate the owner? Do you hate the PSUs as well because they are administered by hardcore corrupt netas at the top?

Maruti was a loss-making company before privatisation even with monopoly. That alone should be enough proof of the success.

VSNL's fortunes dropped after privatisation, but as Arun Shourie said, that was more a result of its loss of monopoly(telecom sector getting deregulated at the same time) than the fact that it was owned by Tatas.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/feb/13guest.htm