Tuesday, December 21, 2010

India, Russia Formalise 5th Gen Fighter Effort



India and Russia have signed a preliminary design contract (PDC) for their joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme. According to a government statement, "The contract envisages joint design and development of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft with the involvement of HAL on the Indian side and Sukhoi Design Bureau and Rosoboronexport on the Russian side." More later.

[UPDATED @5.32PM] Official statement: A contract for Preliminary Design of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft was signed between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi here today. The Project involves design and development of a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft that will have advanced features such as stealth, supercruise, ultra-maneuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities.

The aircraft to be jointly developed is termed Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF). PMF draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA Technology Demonstrator with modifications to meet IAF specifications which are much more stringent. The broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design & development of the PMF, its productionization and joint marketing to third countries. Programme options include the design & development of a twin seater variant and the integration of an advanced engine with higher thrust at a later stage.

Today's contract is only the first in a series of such contracts which will cover different stages of this complex programme. The total cost including options and the value of production aircraft will make this the biggest Defence programme ever in the history of India involving production of over 200-250 aircraft.

The Contract was signed by Mr. A Isaykin, General Director, Rosoboronexport and Mr. M Pogosyan, General Director RAC MiG & Sukhoi from the Russian side and Mr. Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL and Mr. NC Agarwal, Director (D&D), HAL from the Indian side at Delhi.

30 comments :

Mirza said...

Good news, experience generated by this product will have long impact in India.

indian defence forum said...

india needs atleast 400 of these FGFAs to counter the dual threat of china + pakistan......... while 120 will get the job done in the pakistani front, atleast 280 is needed on the chinese frontier...that's why i think that india's policy decision to induct only 200-250 of these birds is wrong.....atleast 400.....that's the bare minimum which is required

russia zindabad
russia zindabad !!!!

Pradeep Dhawan said...

good news, hope to see these bird flying at 26th January parade in a few years...

Anonymous said...

@ india defence forum: in the words of one of india's greatest generals..and i don't need 2 name him coz every body including u should know who he was... with respect to pakistan..indian soldiers just need to stand in a line from kashmir to gujarat..and pee & our great adversary will drown in that.. LOL..take that.. for China.. 250-300 FGFA is fine..!!!

S2 said...

so the new engine is on the cards..was a bit worried there but relieved now...

Anonymous said...

In my "perspective" we will be eternally signing the contract for 5th Gen Perspective fighter. When are we going to sign the final contract? After several years of dithering we have managed to sign a "preliminary design" contract for 30 billion $? Man you gotta be joking. Is our country such a "banana" republic where there is absolutely no accountability?

Anonymous said...

This is only the 1st in a series of contracts. Remain rest assured for another Groshkov Redux. The Ruskies r gonna squeeze our balls again with active connivance from uber corrupt babu-neta-baniya-sipahi nexus. They have not finalized the deal at 30 billion$. It is just an estimate which will obviously double or triple in next few years due to "unseen costs".

Abhid-d said...

A very sorry state of affairs. Even after 64 years of independence, we're still dependent on mummy Russia for arms.

One thought that the MRCA was the last purchase of the IAF. Thereafter, it would be the LCA and the AMCA. But NO !! Along comes the PMF a so-called "jointly developed" jet (actually 98% Russian, 2% Indian).

Mr. Ra said...

Against Pakistan Tejas and Mig29 are enough. Then Mirage 2000 and Jaguar will be free to flatten their lands.

Only 100 FGFA may be required against Sino and the remaining 150 FGFA will be making dry runs here and there with MMRCA and SU-30MKI.

Anonymous said...

What is this?? 200-250??? We need atleast 300 of these birds...Additionally we need 250-300 AMCA complementing 280 Sukhois, 200 LCAs and 126 Eurofighters/Rafales to form a formidable Airforce...I would like to think of an AirForce with atleast 1200 i.e. 60 Squadrons of fighters in Indian Air Force by the year 2025...

Mr. Ra said...

I too support the 60 Squadron idea. This because of the Two Front Theory and also because even the modern sophisticated ground armies can not advance faster and convincingly eliminate the enemies timely without the support of an invincible air power.

keshto said...

If at all its a war with China (although there is no likelihood), there wont be any dogfight, it would be raining missiles.

When is that two nuclear armed nations have fought?

Despite all the hoopla, China has yet to attack tiny winy Taiwan, so guys dont loose your sleep on China, and in the process jack up Indian aircraft inventory.

Anonymous said...

IDForum,
You are right, we need 400 FGAs.

However, FGA will not fly alone; it needs 2 pilots and many supporting staffs. Even though, India being second highest populated country in the world, our country is finding difficult to get military officers. So our government needs to higher more cadets. But the question is how many from the younger generation will be interested to join Indian Military. Who is gonna encourage them? Of course, none of the politicians' sons or daughters are gonna join Indian military because of obvious reasons. None of the TATAs's, Mittals's, Ambanis's, Premjis's children are gonna to join IM. None of "babus'" sons or daughters are gonna join our IM.

This is where India needs to "invest." Indeed, this is one of the prime concerns of India.

Jai Hind.

Menon

Anonymous said...

Keshto,

China is not attacking Taiwan due to Uncle Sam's massive Aircraft Carriers in Taiwan and deal with USA to defend Taiwan against any external aggression.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6.41AM
Indian military, particularly the Army is a relic of colonial era where recruitment is on the basis of race or caste and almost half the regiments comprises of foreigners AKA Nepalis brought to India by British to suppress the "natives". Fact is, our army and military are obsolete, corrupt and bloated. Why do we need a 1.5 million army? Wars are not won by boots on the ground but by technological superiority. We need to trim our armed forces where the salary and pension itself accounts for several lakhs crores. We are paying Nepal, 10,000s of crores for recruiting their citizens. Wouldn't it be better if we recruited Indians instead of Nepalis as this same amount would be pumped in our economy instead of fattening foreigners? No wonder Nepal is higher than India in global hunger index. What's the need for such huge army when we have not fought any war for last 40 years and chances of conventional war is extremely remote?

keshto said...

China is not attacking Taiwan due to Uncle Sam's massive Aircraft Carriers in Taiwan and deal with USA to defend Taiwan against any external aggression.


China has threatened the US they will retaliate with nukes, so forget about it.

BTW, do you see that Uncle Sam is not fighting North Korea why?

Dangggggggggg!

alankar said...

@anonymous- brother, no recruitment is on the basis of caste or race as a matter of fact army is probably the only govt. organisation without reservations. half of regiments belonging to foreigners?? where the hell did u get that? only a few of the gurkha regiments recruit nepalis, and let me tell you, gurkhas regiments exist in many armed forces around the world including the British army. secondly your comment about wars not being won by boots on ground kinda made me laugh, outnumbering the enemy on the battle field is a huge advantage. Why do we need a 1.5million strong army?, because we have two hostile neighbors (pakistan and china) and we still don't have enough men defend all hostile frontiers and are still not capable of pushing china out of our disputed borders and thats the reason we are raising an entirely new mountain corps. our forces are already spread too thin because of army being engaged in counter insurgency (Rashtriya Rifles, Assam rifles) not to mention the new NSG hubs, and now the possibility of pushing the army into naxal areas as well. The nation cannot pull a little kid out of a borewell or even build a bridge for CWG without the army's help is suddenly asking why we need such a large force? frankly if you ask me, unless we pull the army out of RR and Assam rifles and use para military forces for such roles, we shouldn't even consider reducing the size of our armed forces. As for your comment about the possibility of a real war being remote- Another attack like 26/11 is all it will take to push India to war. Global relations are very unpredictable, you never know when things may take a turn for the worse.

alankar said...

@anonymous- brother, no recruitment is on the basis of caste or race as a matter of fact army is probably the only govt. organisation without reservations. half of regiments belonging to foreigners?? where the hell did u get that? only a few of the gurkha regiments recruit nepalis, and let me tell you, gurkhas regiments exist in many armed forces around the world including the British army. secondly your comment about wars not being won by boots on ground kinda made me laugh, outnumbering the enemy on the battle field is a huge advantage. Why do we need a 1.5million strong army?, because we have two hostile neighbors (pakistan and china) and we still don't have enough men defend all hostile frontiers and are still not capable of pushing china out of our disputed borders and thats the reason we are raising an entirely new mountain corps. our forces are already spread too thin because of army being engaged in counter insurgency (Rashtriya Rifles, Assam rifles) not to mention the new NSG hubs, and now the possibility of pushing the army into naxal areas as well. The nation cannot pull a little kid out of a borewell or even build a bridge for CWG without the army's help is suddenly asking why we need such a large force? frankly if you ask me, unless we pull the army out of RR and Assam rifles and use para military forces for such roles, we shouldn't even consider reducing the size of our armed forces. As for your comment about the possibility of a real war being remote- Another attack like 26/11 is all it will take to push India to war. Global relations are very unpredictable, you never know when things may take a turn for the worse.

Anonymous said...

@Keshto

Have they? Do they have any proper ABM system apart from s300 missiles? USA is based in Taiwan, Japan and now even Vietnam.The only way China can attack USA is thru it's ICBMs which are no match to USA's both in terms of number and quantity.

Uncle Sam is not fighting N. Korea bcoz China has pulled it's ear on behalf of Uncle Sam. LOL! Didn't you read wikileaks where China mentioned that NK is behaving like a spoilt child?

Anonymous said...

@Alankar,
Then tell me what is Sikh regt, Gurkha rgt, rajput, mahar, punjab, bihar, madras etc. etc. rgts? Aren't these rgts on the basis of caste, race and community which were formed by the British to divide and rule India?
There are 7 Gorkha Rgts. and they recruit only Nepalis. Even Madhesis of Nepal, who are ethnically closer to Indians, are not allowed to join Indian Gorkha Rgts. No other Indian community has so many Rgts. These Rgts were created by the British to quell Indian uprisings. What's the point in having them after India's independence particularly when we are a nation of billion + and so many communities don't have their rgts? There are only few 1000 Nepalis in British Army which is being maintained more out of charity than any practical use. Chances are very high they will be axed in recent defense cuts.

Anonymous said...

Alankar
If u r an Armyman then I am seriously worried about India's security. In history wars have been fought by superior tactics and not numbers right from the days of Alexander the G8.Also check recent Gulf wars, Vietnam war, Arab Israel war to know this fact.
Where the Army is fighting it's own people we seriously need to consider what is the difference between us and the British? R we a real democracy?
It's not the Army's job to fight insurgencies.You need special paramilitary outfits specially for this job. We will witness more such insurgencies as differences grow wider and people become more aware due to knowledge explosion. Ergo, the need to cut down troops in Army and raise new outfits to counter insurgencies and proxy wars which need different skills altogether. These same para military outfits can also act as regular troops in times of war.This will save money for defense R&D.

Anonymous said...

@Alankar

Do you know how much it cost India just to mobilize our troops during terror attack on our parliament? It cost us almost 1 billion $. Similar amount was incurred by Pakistan. Simple question. A country that is begging for alms, can it afford a conventional war? The answer is no. Ergo, it is supporting proxy wars. The people behind 26/11 wanted India to attack Pakistan in order to avenge Pakistan's betrayal of Taliban (a creation of ISI) in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. India knew this very well. Pakistan is not mad to attack India. During Kargil conflict, even China chided Pakistan for it's foolish adventure.
Similarly Chinese are far more smarter than us Indians. They will attack us only when the odds are extremely against us like 1962. That situation (a creation of Nehru) is next to impossible. Also ask yourself why did the Chinese run behind their border only after a month of occupying Indian territory in 1962?

keshto said...

Have they? Do they have any proper ABM system apart from s300 missiles? USA is based in Taiwan, Japan and now even Vietnam.The only way China can attack USA is thru it's ICBMs which are no match to USA's both in terms of number and quantity.


ABM is not a panacea against nuclear winter, if US-China fight, russia gets sucked in and that means end of the planet and we, the earthlings.

MAD theory works in practice too.

alankar said...

@anonymous-
sikh, gurkha, rajput are all infantry battalions, the men have to fight/die together and for each other which required tremendous esprit de corps (feeling of fellow comradery) which will only come about when you have linguistic and cultural affinity between your troops. that is why we have these regiments based on regions and culture, the officer cadre is anyway from all over india and army is the only place where you will not find temples, mosques or churches instead you have sarva dhram sthal (the place of worship for all religions). morover corps like- EME, AAD, Engineers, Artillery, Ordinance, Cavalry, AMC, ASC, Para, Guards, etc........ ie- most the army is recruited as- all arms all creed, all race, all religion.
Your comment about gurkha regiments recruiting only nepalis is factually incorrect- nepalis constitute 1/4 of the total gurkha strength, rest are gurkhas from sikkim, north east, etc. even the fact about british army having very few gurkhas is also factually incorrect- they have an entire dedicated gurkha brigade (the royal gurkha brigade).

coming to the numbers- i never denied the importance of tactics, technology, experience and motivation. but having sheer numbers is always a big advantage. i'l quote your examples only- americans lost the vietnem war despite having better tactics and technology, americans din't have enough to effectively sustain troops in iraq because of shortage of men.

as for CI-ops i completely agree on using para-military for this purpose its not the army's job.
about using para military for wars- is not a good idea( its downright stupid) and i right now i don't want to explain why( kindly understand the constraints here), gimme your e-mail id and i'l tell you there.

now as for funding- if india can waste funds on the 2G scam which is bigger than india's entire defence bugget!!!, spend 3000 crores on a statue of shivaji in the Arabian sea, waste 7000 crores on CWG. We can very well fund our present army. When you talk of army being equipped with outdated equipment understand that it is not because of shortage of funds, but because our system is too bureaucratic and obstructionist. After the bofors scandal the govt. is afraid of any artillery defence deals, majority of vendors are blacklisted in order to favour a few(thankyou bureaucrats again!!!) and the people who finalize the defence deals have nothing to do with the army. they can't tell the difference between an assault rifle and a howitzer and they are the ones to decide what equipment we get and at what cost!. (nothing personal dude, i understand your concern about the nation's security but trust me, the army's situation is not all bad. it has after all delivered and continues to do so every single time the nation is in need.) PEACE OUT!

Anonymous said...

@Alankar
You think if we have regiments which will be mixed (as in rest of the world) there won't be espirit de corps? You mean the crack French and Spanish Foreign Legions or SAS/SBS, Navy Seals, Israeli Commando/Army lacks espirt de corp becoz they have mixed race and nationality?
Do you know the genesis of forming regts on the basis of race, caste and community in India? Like I have mentioned before, it was for divide and rule strategy. The Sikhs, Nepalis and Pathans were used against people from the Gangetic plains and the people from Gangetic plains were used against Pathans, Nepalis and Sikhs.
Gurkhas from Sikkim are also basically Nepalis. Gurkha Rgts comprises solely of Nepalis from India and Nepal in 40:60 ratio.I would like to know what is the rationale for recruiting Nepalis in tons in post independent Indian Army when we are a country of 1 billion+? By forming rgts on the basis of race and caste it shows that IA is still following racist "martial race" theory when in comes to recruitment of soldiers for IA. This is the reason why I called Indian Army a racist post colonial relic of a bygone era.

Anonymous said...

@Alankar,

Sheer numbers have never been an advantage. In WWII Russians, French, British had far larger Armies than that of the Germans. Germans won during the initial stages due to their Blitzkrieg strategy. Alexander had far smaller army in comparison to the Persians. Babur had far smaller Army than that of Imbrahim Lodhi's. British had always a far smaller army than that of the Indian Kings. Israel defeated combined forces of 6 countries. etc. etc. ANd now Gulf wars another example. Americans lost in Vietnam, bcoz they were fighting like the Persians and VCs like Alexander.
You can very well tell us all why it is "stupid" to use para military during wars?
2G, CWG, Statues etc. scams justifies "funding" our present army? LOL! No wonder our present Chief of Army was caught red handed diverting funds for golf carts etc. and the earlier Chief's name is figuring in several scams. No mate, with such thieves in uniform I don't feel secure. It's high time we rationalized our armed forces. What is the role of Army in peacetime? Funding such a huge army is a drain to the exchequer. We need to get rid of foreign rgts. and make our Army more Indian than British Indian Army.

Anonymous said...

@Alankar

British Army has only 3000 Nepali soldiers. You consider 3000 to be a big number?

alankar said...

@anonymous-
you talk of french, spanish, british or israeli armed forces. well, try comparing india's cultural and linguistic diversity to those nations. each one of these nations has a single language and the same culture. moreover the indian regiments are no longer restrictive. I have personally seen people from arunachal, jammu&kashmir, hariyana and rajasthan serving the punjab regiment! my dad from the assam regiment has had people from mizoram, sikkim, nagaland in his battalion.
also, your view of the armed forces seems restricted to just the infantry. i told you that corps like- AMC, AAD, EME, cavalry, engineers, ASC, ordinance, army aviation, etc are- all caste, all creed. changing their names will be something like naming bombay as mumbai .these regiments are all inclusive. although the majority community in the battalions may differ since they have their recruitment centers located in different areas


coming to numbers-
The indian navy is demanding a larger fleet, the airforce is demanding more squadrons and the army is demanding a new mountain corps!. All because the officers who serve on ground zero have faced problems due to shortage of man power. a larger army is harder to manage and despite that the only reason we are expanding the size is because it is needed! now, why don't we invite our defence ministry and the top brass of our armed forces and you can teach them how to run the organisation. You can tell them that their expreience of 20 years or more of service is useless and only "you" know whats best for the army! and those officers are idiots for demanding a bigger force and increasing their own work when its not needed.

Coming to corruption-The past two army chiefs have indeed been an embarrassment for the armed forces. but the organisation is a whole lot cleaner than any other govt. establishment. you will never have senior IAS or IPS officers being arrested or penalized whereas army is the only organisation where even brigadiers and generals are Court Marshalled.

Our servicemen don't magically appear from heaven, they belong to the society of india and if there is corruption in india it is bound to reach the armed forces as well( is our police force, political establishment or civil services any better). the important question is if they are brought to justice?. in the army, for most cases, yes they are.

now. i'l come to why para military can't be used for wars-
first thing, they are trained differently and have different equipment, they are structured differently. training them like an infantry battalion and giving them similar equipment and unifying them under a central command will be something like- disbanding the army's infantry battalions only to create new ones under the CRPF or BSF which will be restructured so that they can be used for wars under a central command. so essentially it won't save any money and will only give you a less potent infantry battalion because of lack of experience. not to mention the waste of time, money and resources in raising the new regiments and restructuring the para-military
secondly, The army is much more than just the Infantry, when you talk of a smaller army you talk of smaller Armored regiments, Smaller mechanized regiments, smaller artillery regiments, smaller supply corps, smaller aviation corps, smaller medical corps, smaller corps of engineers, smaller parachute regiments, smaller ordinance corps, smaller int. corps, and the para-military can never be used for these roles.

now, as for gurkhas- you seem to be missing the point, i told you, the gurkha regiment of the indian army do not consist entirely of nepalis. majority of them are from the north-east and sikkim. i am not debating weather the nepalis should be recruited or not. but your earlier statements- about gurkha regiment being entirely nepali and more than half of our regiments comprising of foreigners is factually incorrect!

alankar said...

@anonymous-
hey, i think i sorta crossed some kinda line with my last post. was frustrated at something else and it all happened to come out here. my apologies for that. i'm just here for a good discussion and am open to a rational argument. PEACE!

Anonymous said...

India is being taken to the cleaners once again by Russia! All that India will get in this FGFA is an upgraded Su-35 that has already been designed.

The FGFA deal, once again, sounds like a method for the politicians and bureaucrats to make money from back channels.