Monday, December 06, 2010

[UPDATED] IAF Mirage Upgrade Finally Final


A hardfought $2.1-billion deal to upgrade the Indian Air Force's fleet of about 50 Mirage-2000 multirole fighters is final, with a formal agreement expected to be signed in two weeks. Will update this post with details later tonight if I can.

77 comments :

Anonymous said...

That puts the price of each plane to $42 million on a dated airframe. Wouldn't it have made more sense to buy a few more MMRCA?

Anonymous said...

~ $ 40 million per fighter to upgrade !

are we mad ?

Anonymous said...

yes finally the deal is final, sir can u explain wat will be the additions to the aircraft from it's current layout

Timmy P. said...

2.1 Billion is good deal....Some joker was posting it was going to be 40 billion in some other site......Thank God it's not!

Anonymous said...

Really Good News ...

SK

indian defence forum said...

this is great news indeed ... but it should be fast-tracked bcoz our squadron strength is depleting very fast... the upgrade must not take more than two years...

Anonymous said...

why is the air force unnecessarily wasting money on old aircrafts insted they could have gone for more mmrca's with those 2.1b

Ashish Kenkare said...

Wouldn't the price of an F-16 be way lesser than this new upgrade?
What makes the Mirage stand out from other cheaper MMRCA?

pranav said...

Instead buy a new gripen NG/IN in the same money :)

keshto said...

Indians seem to be stupid enough to cough up 55 million USD for (3 decade old) Mirage upgrade, while these many dollars can fetch them newer platform/avionics/weapons.

Certainely they love to play golf with lemon - to make it more harder for them.

One more reason for puny Pakistan to laugh at Indian decision makers.....

Oh my.....rudderless India!

Mr. Ra said...

This up-gradation is good but it should be fast.

Under the critically timed contemporary situations, the MMRCA can not be a substitute of this up-gradation.

However this up-gradation makes it apprehensive that how much costly the MMRCA is going to be.

Now I think I should wish for the cheapest plane, I mean anything cheap but the F-16.

VJ said...

The costlier upgrade is the final outcome of denial of sensor and radar package to Jointly-Fuxxxx-17 from France

keshto said...

CEMILAC Type Approval for CVRDE's Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gearbox of LCA

Anonymous said...

Mirage 2000:
>Existing asset with excellent record
>Combat proven and mature support systems
>Makes sense considering depleting IAF assets and long lead time for new assets to be inducted
>Can counter anything the Pakis are currently coming up with
>Upgrades are nothing to be sneered at as long as done in scheduled time

keshto said...

France to offer bigger Scorpenes for $5 billion Indian submarine order

Mig-29k develops Hydraulic failure


Indian Army formulates requirements for Next Gen Main Battle Tank


Lockheed Martin set to deliver India’s first C-130J

Anonymous said...

The only reason to do the upgrade is bcoz the mirage has nuclear strike role, but 2billion seems too much.

Animesh said...

shiv, are you sure abt this whooping price tag?
Why not buy some brand new Gripen NG or F-16E/F instead?

Anurag said...

2.1 Billion is quite large just for upgrade.But i think still IAF must have thought about this before inking such a big deal.Probably Mirage 2000's Kargil performance and Less life cost as compared to other aircraft would have made IAF to take this decision.Well since now deal is set and India has big and growing defence budget,IAF's firepower will surely increase.However upgradation should not take much time or it will diminish the advantage of this deal.

Anonymous said...

$2 billion is too much.

We are better off buying new jets.

Anonymous said...

It's because of stupid decisions like these we are not able to compare ourselves with the Chinese.

As it is we have a far lower defense budget, and on top of that we make procurement blunders.

It is funny that even countries with a far bigger budget than ours try to save money wherever possible, but we try to spend as if our budget is unlimited.[And they call us CHEAP]

I think this money is better spent on other upgrades/procurements.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

It wasn't a hardfought contract at all as India was at the loser's end from the very beginning, thanks to the MoD's policy of awarding aircraft LIFEX contracts only to the OEMs. And since was a declaratory policy, both Dassault and THALES exploited it to the hilt! A far better option would have been to upgrade the avionics suite with Israel's IAI, thereby halving the upgrade's per-unit cost. What a waste!

Anonymous said...

I smell corruption somewhere.

Any sane man would realize that for the price of upgrading one Mirage-2000, we could probably just buy more Mirages, effectively doubling our Mirage fleet size and saving some money.

Anonymous said...

Is India bending over backwards because of Sarkozy's visit?

Anonymous said...

The only way anyone can justify this price is if France was installing every major component of the Rafale on our Mirages. (Thales SPECTRA, RBE2, etc)

Delta said...

This is like upgrading camry to lexus base model when a new lexus vx is available for same price, doesnt make sense,,unless its a chanakya move by babydoms to covertly pass something surprising masked by this upgrade move..

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

How come the avionics architecture diagram from HAL does not even mention the MMR? WTF is going on???

Anonymous said...

What do you mean $40M is too much? It's a complete upgrade. Upgrade of the aircraft, upgrade of bank accounts, and upgrade in lifestyle...

3-in-1 deal. Beat that!

Chalta hai!

Anonymous said...

I like Mirage 2000. But the price tag seems a lil too hefty. I mean you could buy brand new aircrafts for this price. I understand that it would take a lot more time to buy new aircrafts and working with the French has its own advantages( remember Kargil and the jerry rigged LGBs), but still the cost of upgrade per unit irks me.

Max

Anonymous said...

Here we go again. Some Indian politician has again made money. $ 2.1 billion for upgrading a 23 yr old jet which will take 5 yrs. $ 42 mill/ plane for a 28 yr plane.

I have only one question- weren't the French laughing when they signed the deal? I mean what is the chance of seeing stupidity beyond this extent ?

In a sellers arms market, India buys a 25 year old 2nd hand aircraft carrier for $ 2.3 billion. Upgrade 23 yr old Mirage 2Ks for
$ 42 mill.

We don't need enemies. We are our biggest enemies.

Manish Kumar said...

India has obliged France by paying an exorbitant price for upgrades and in the process excluded Rafale from the MMRCA race.

We now have to choose amongst the 5 left. The process of elimination has now begun. Think about it folks.

Manish Kumar
Dainik Hindustan

Animesh said...

was there any bargain at all?
or it was a thumbs-up on the very first quote!!

Anonymous said...

Modern fighter aircraft are not milk in cartons to be picked off the shelf of a supermarket!One cannot go to a friendly neighborhood shop and say,BTW i want 10 0r 20 more aircraft then i was asking for for!!!
The procurement of fighters is complex process(more so in India) and even after signing of a contract, a considerable time will be taken to deliver and induct the aircraft.

A new aircraft, with the associated systems,avionics and support is certainly not cheap. It makes greater sense to upgrade 50 already capable fighters in a certain process than go in for the longer uncertain fresh procurement.
In terms f national security,costs can mean different things.The IAF can only fight with those systems it already has!!The MRCA,new aircraft are plans,processes,work in progress!The certainty of availability of an asset has its own cost advantage!

Anonymous said...

Though the 2000 is a proven capable aircraft spending that much for an upgrade amounts to treason and not acting in the interest of the state unless it came with 50 spare engines.....another gorshkov..... Penny wise rupee foolish. Sad day indeed when you think France could of provided 40 rafs quick smart and the support centres could oflearnt quick to support nuke capable rafs. 10/4

Anonymous said...

Shiv,
Can you get the details on this upgrade?.. What is the reason behind this costly upgrade instead of procuring new aircraft?...
There must be some calculations behind it right?.. $40 million is too much for upgrade .. this will surely diminish the chance for Rafale in MMRCA

Anonymous said...

At a time when the country which made the jet is in the process of replacing it, we are investing $2.1 billion on an upgrade.

Stupid decision.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 10:53AM

The problem is not the upgrade, hell no one said anything on the MiG-29 upgrade, but this price is appalling.

Anonymous said...

Better throw the Rafale off the MRCA.

Otherwise they will extort us for another four decades.

Hrishikesh said...

Better to have an aircraft which is in step with times than which could turn obsolete soon.

How many new / mmrca / etc fighters would $2bn give - 20? Upgraded mirages will be equivalent in capabilities if not more to the mmrcas etc.

As for the costs, answer could lie in what is included as part of the upgrade? Moreover, how much have upgrades of similar kind to similar aircraft cost in the recent past will tell us whether this deal is justified or not but think this deal needs to be tempered with the fact that it is a critical component of India's nuclear triad.

BTW - what is IOC/FOC in the diagram? Pardon for the ignorance.

Anonymous said...

M2K is a fine aircraft and loved by the IAF and the upgrade includes undisclosed number of MICA which is being missed by most.

however still it sounds a little too much. though it may give M2K another 15-20 years, i would have really liked if the IAF had ordered a few more squadrons of LCA mark 1 which will be brand new with at the least 30 yrs of lifetime.

besides i really don't think LCA is less capable than M2K and if one looks at the upgrade schedule it will take 7-8 yrs where as LCA will start being inducted from 2011.

i think IAF missed an opportunity here. given, that LCA is yet to achieve FOC - also does not hold IMO. it will follow logically in months.

FWIW.

Anonymous said...

@ Manish
If we exclude Rafale, F16s (For obvious reasons)and Gripen (Due to no political mileage)then the list gets down to only 3 - Typhoons, F18s and Mig35. The race is getting hotter and hotter.....

Anonymous said...

40$ Million - cud have been spent on a new Gripen ...

2.1$ billion - Would have got us 3 indian made aircraft carriers !!

A Honest Defence minister signs off such a deal - either does not deserve his reputation or else has not negotiated a good deal !

Anonymous said...

some analyst say that france agreed not to upgrade pakistans mirage jets with new avionics

Shubham said...

I think i agree with Manish @ 7:56 AM and his intuitive thinking.. also think that when Putin visited India last, deal for additional 29 Mig 29k fighters was signed, Obama got the C-17s, and agreements around additional orders to C-130J were being closed..and now this Mirage upgrade deal.. i think all these events lead me to believe that Eurofighter might be "the chosen one"..if these agreements of appeasing or placating the potential losers of the MMRCA contract are anything to go by..

Anonymous said...

Pakistani Mirage jets (both Mirage-III and Mirage-5 variants) are already upgraded long time ago runder ROSE series of upgrades.

keshto said...

Last of Foxtrot submarines to retire on Dec 9

BTW - what is IOC/FOC in the diagram? Pardon for the ignorance.

Initial Operating Capability (IOC). The state achieved when Military Capability is available in its minimum usefully deployable form...

Once the capability is fully developed, Full operational capability (FOC) may be declared..

Anonymous said...

Buying new fighter aircraft is not a good idea. You have to come up with new infer structure and have to train pilots, technical staff and lot more to do. It is foolish to dismantle the existing infrastructure. More over we are inducting MMRCA in near future. It’s not easy for our pilots to adopt new fighter. Remember it was battle proven aircraft. So it is a good idea to upgrade Mirage2000H but $2bn is cause of concern main idea of upgrading Mirage is to push it up to mca or lca mak2 induction


bhagat choudary

ArkAngel said...

Ah we Indians! First we complain about the Russians using us, then we complained about the Americans using & abusing us, now we're complaining about the French using us! Brilliant!

We cant do anything for ourselves, we cant think for ourselves we cant even decide for ourselves. And we're crying about a UNSC seat!
The problem is most of us are rather simple minded(just read some of the comments here or on any news site) we easily give in to be used by others!
We're not leaders we're followers.

keshto said...

How come the avionics architecture diagram from HAL does not even mention the MMR? WTF is going on???

Prasun may be they dont wanna touch Thomson-CSF MMR and have it replaced.

keshto said...

some analyst say that france agreed not to upgrade pakistans mirage jets with new avionics


So we have given a "Supari" to France against Pakistan ;)

Anonymous said...

The contract for modernization of India’s 51 Mirage 2000-H jets is expected to be worth 2.2 billion euros ($2.9 billion), of which 900 million euros is for the procurement of air-to-air Mica missiles made by MBDA !!

That puts the price of each plane far less than $42 million !!

keshto said...

development of the Kaveri engine for India’s Light Combat Aircraft are in their final stages.

keshto said...

MIRAGE 2000 COMBAT AIRCRAFT UPGRADE
IN DASSAULT AVIATION

keshto said...

QUOTE:


The core of the enhanced capabilities lies in the Thales Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU). According to Dassault Aviation, it has a processing power 50 times higher than that of the 2084 XRI-type computer fitted on the early versions of Mirage 2000-5. The MDPU is the cornerstone of the avionics/weapon upgradeability of the Rafale.

aniket said...

$2.1 billion for 3rd generation mirage!!!!!!!!!!thts the way india works ..

keshto said...

We're not leaders we're followers.

The mess started from Nehru who gave away this (UNSC) seat to China and kept British citizen as his defense advisor.

Then cometh senior Morarji Ranchor Desai, who dismantled RAW and got Pakistan´s highest award - Nishan e Pakistan.

Mualayam singh Yadav dwarfed MK Gandhi, who (Yadav) suggested to gift 2000 crores to Pakistan was made Indian defnse minister.

Our own Rajiv Gandhi with BOFORS scam.

Dont you know India is a land of thousand scams and million traitors a la Jaichand?

If we dont criticise, complain n comment against such heinous crimes commited by none other than our own leaders, thus try to bring up mass awakening, then we would be stamped as fawning underlings with servile attitude.

I for one, would not want to be one....

Squeeking wheel gets the lube!

rajiv said...

Here is Mirage Upgrade
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/IAF_Strike_Mirage_2000s.pdf

Anonymous said...

shiv,

pls. get to the bottom of this. why are we paying so much for an upgrade?

Its ridiculous. The IAF owes us civilians an explanation.

thanks,

vishal

Abhid-d said...

A colossal waste of money by all standards ! In $2.1 billion, we could get 3 squadrons of brand new 4+ generation Tejas jets !

Have the MoD/IAF lost their minds ?

No doubt it is said that the IAF has Zero self-respect when it comes to kicking indigenization out of the window, but kowtowing to a foreign manufacturer's Shylockian demands !!

Anonymous said...

Unlike the Mig-29 upgrade this one will include full weapons package. Several guided rockets and munitions are part of the programme. A few hundreds of Mica will be procured to arm the aircraft instead of current 530D.

Mr. Ra said...

We can feel confident that this Mirage up-gradation neither affects the Tejas nor the MMRCA in any adverse manner. Also it can not be a real substitute to any one of the two.

So all the three are different and Mirage has an extra double role which can be difficult on Tejas and MMRCA except perhaps on Rafale.

If the Mirage up-gradation really creates any fund problems, then it can be taken care off judiciously within the MMRCA before it is too late.

Mirage up-gradation is a pro-active insurance against paki. We can not always keep on planning for the future, we have also to survive in the ground realities of the present.

It can also be said that Mirage up-gradation is certainly better than purchasing 40 new Rafale.

Dhagash said...

Defense is a black hole for a nation's budget. No matter how much money is poured in, there is always a room for more. USA is a great example. At an annual defense budget of 5% GDP, or around $500 billion, USA still suffers from cuts in procurement plans for fighters, aircraft carriers, transports etc.
India, sadly, is following in the footsteps of all the previous powerful nations: as soon as we got money, we have started procuring absurd amount of weaponry. $5 billion for C17. $3 billion for Scorpene and plans for a dozen more subs. $12 billion for 126 fighters. $3 billion for old aircraft carrier.
Yes, there always will be a justification for spending all this money and more in the future: but with a potential to bankrupt the govt. India doesn't need to start a war today or in near future with anyone nor does Pakistan is in a position to defeat us with our current strength. Even with all these imports, India is no match for China, both militarily or economically. And for a worst case scenario, we have nukes. If there is any possibility, Indians must refuse expensive foreign import of weapons. They serve little purpose by making us poorer and arrogant. We have many other fields to focus on. Internal security is one of them. More Indians die today of famine, accidents, diseases and terrorist attacks then by a traditional war. Focusing on making our country internally robust and developed will lead to more benefits than mere inking of these contracts.

Anonymous said...

The weapons package is what drives this upgrade to 2.1 billion dollars. The Mica ER/IR are incredibly expensive missiles but they are very capable on the other hand. Besides 30% of this deal is coming back as offsets. And the weapons packages is rumored to be anywhere from 700-900 million euros which is a signigicant portion of the contract.

pranav said...

The upgrade package will include RDY-3 Pulse doppler radar, The MICA BVR, PAJ-FA EW pods etc. but i suspect it willnot incluse the spectra EW suite and offcourse no engine upgrade.

On the other hand in just one third the price we will get the isareli 2032 MMR , Derby BVR & python 5 missiles. Plus the ELTA 8222 EW pods which are better than what is offered by France.

mathi man said...

Congrats IAF on getting a deal through MoD , Mr A K Antony, PMO, And rest of bureacracy!!

First we complain that MoD is lazy and not even buying artillery but when they buy we complain its too expensive. Unless the actual breakdown is not known then it is difficult to generalize. Nowadays, lifetime maintenance packages can be very expensive for fighter aircraft but still it is better to buy them. Someone else was saying the MICA missiles justify this price. Also, feel that this upgrade price is justified only if it is on fast track and not " one plane a year" like our "esteeemed" MIG corporation.

@ Shiv, the breakdown of this price tag , if you can plz.


Again, congrats IAF!!

keshto said...

2:11 PM

My freind MICA is just 60K range, its peanut against Pakistan´s AIM-120 with 105K range.....stand-off disadvantage. Yet costing million dollar a piece.

Other thing being labour cost, India will upgrade 49 of 51 aircrafts, only 2 will be upgraded by french. Even then the price is too high.

Anonymous said...

High cost is due to 1.5 billion $ kickbacks to our babu-netas-sipahis of "secular" India.
Our leaders aka Netas r a reflection of the masses. They represent what kind of people we are.

openlight said...

@keshto--

some mismatch on range of both -- pls google / refer to wikipedia --

AIM-120 range = 48 Km

MICA = 60 Km

ArkAngel said...

Dont rely too much on wiki pedia.
Pak is getting the AIM-120C-5 with a range of >105 km, not the A/B version.
But ofcourse the Mirage cant fire an AMRAAM.

keshto said...

Openlight:


AIM-120 has 3 versions, the "D" version has that range....

Shubham said...

Lets not worry about the comparitive ranges of the Mica or AIM- 120, it would be great if India and Russia are able to successfully develop the Novator missile (K-100) with ranges of upto 300-400 km.

Check out these supportive links:

1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_K-100

2)http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/533248.cms

Anybody in the know of the updates regarding this program?

Anonymous said...

@openlight

The AMRAAM range on wikipedia is for the first AIM-120A made in 1991.

AIM-120C7 and D have much higher range(close to keshto's 105KM claim)

Ashish Kenkare said...

I'm sure the IAF must have thought about the adjustment training for the new Aircrafts. Rather, use already available aircraft which you are used to.
I kind of feel they are gearing up for the PAK FGA, slated to be delivered by 2017?
Consider this, another MRCA order instead of an Upgrade wud mean the delivery wud take atleast 2015-2017 to complete it.By then PAK FGA Deliveries will start. We're ordering abt 250 of those beauties. That means a lot of time and resources would go into adjusting our pilots for the PAK FGA. So now i guess this makes greater sense to upgrade considering the maintainence and training costs which are associated with them.

Anonymous said...

3:55 PM
"
Anonymous said...
Buying new fighter aircraft is not a good idea. You have to come up with new infer structure and have to train pilots, technical staff and lot more to do. It is foolish to dismantle the existing infrastructure. More over we are inducting MMRCA in near future. It’s not easy for our pilots to adopt new fighter. Remember it was battle proven aircraft. So it is a good idea to upgrade Mirage2000H but $2bn is cause of concern main idea of upgrading Mirage is to push it up to mca or lca mak2 induction


bhagat choudary"

Don't we think this way when we buy new planes from american including hercules130, c17, P8. And based of this 5 of 6 fighters will be out of MRCA race because they will be new to IAF. We have relationship with Mig only. So we should by MIG-35, why all this fake stunt of race?

rajiv said...

To all who are complaining about the high cost of mirage upgrades.

Don't you think we need to compensate the French Defense Industry for denying Bandar the weapons and avionics , Pakis were so desperately seeking.

MOD and IAF would never give away the true capacity of Mirage upgrades.

French weapons will always be expensive because they are not mass produced as American ones

Anonymous said...

guys,

the only way to resolve this is to get how much we paid for the MICA and other ordnance as part of this upgrade. if someone has that 'authentic', and not hearsay figure then pls. let us know?...lets subtract that from the overall price and get the real price of mirage upgrade....someone has that info?

thxs

-vishal

Anonymous said...

It's the price for the nuclear capacity.

Thank's France for this.

Guneet singh (archie singh) said...

first of all its a very great news
our pilots are well known with this system n the upgrading mirage will save time ... WHICH WE ARE LAGGING

MMRCA will induct after 2017.. SLOWLY SLOWLY .. TILL 2025

n upgrading system in mirage is very good ... its for accuracy n long range radar ...

I am very much proud on Ministry of Defence as a tax payer...

N don't forget the Kargil war real hero ...