Tuesday, January 18, 2011

"Tejas, A Three-Legged Cheetah": Former IAF Commander

Copyright SP's Aviation


mathew dallas said...

Shiv, I have been converted. And I take back all that I said about the Tejas. This is the reason,http://www.orfonline.org/cms/sites/orfonline/modules/analysis/AnalysisDetail.html?cmaid=20937&mmacmaid=20938
And it surely is not a three legged cheetah, but the pride of India, no matter what. I would not have said anything bad about the Tejas if I had read something like this, so powerful, convincing(the link).

Aditya said...

To be fair, that is a fairly accurate assessment of the LCA... tons of potential in the design, but it's hit puberty too late, and doesn't look like it'll mature for another 7 years at least.

Anonymous said...

I did not understand what the writer is getting at. He starts by describing the importance of the drop tank jettison test, offers a survey of the Tejas development and then ends with a statement on the lack of thrust in the current engine. Is there anything here we do not know? What is the point?

Anonymous said...

air force ke log bhi to frustration utarte hain

Anonymous said...

Very interesting person- Air Marshall Bhatia.

If you read a few articles he has penned in SP's Aviation-he has been a consistent critic of the LCA (prolonged development, needing more development budgets that originally planned,lack of 100 KN engine etc). Surprisingly,the only other developing platform he comments on (the F-35), he is supportive of the similar problems (development budget stretching beyond original estimate, missed timelines, cost per plane ballooning) the F-35 is facing. Link below


Why this apparent double standard? If the Tejas is totally hopeless, worthless & a lemon-i can understand it. However, The test pilots of the Tejas praise it and place it as a better plane to fly than the Mirage, leave the Mig-21 which it has to replace. However, the IAF top brass are very critical of the Tejas. What gives?

Shiv-Any thoughts here? Why do the IAF top brass continuously bash the Tejas, while no negative publicity has come out of the Tejas test pilots (in effect the end users, since the test pilots are from IAF).


Anonymous said...

shiv any newz about mig 29 upgrading that how far it has reached????

Anonymous said...

1983 conceptualized...wish he had mentioned the time when funding had begun too
(maybe the time out parents started thinking about our baby should be quoted as birth date!!!)

somehow managed the CLAW...hmm..that would suggest that the CLAW is something that barely meets the requirements.(which in itself is a great deal...hey but nobody here says anything about the tejas) and of course lets leave out that the team was booted out of LM and not even allowed to take back the equipment they brought to test there and had to redo a lot!!![there is this pilot who said tejas was easier to operate than the mirage...but then thats probably a rumor cooked up by fan boys ]

Anonymous said...

The Honorable Air Marshall would probably agree that three legs are better than borrowed legs !

Anonymous said...


You must be kicked in your teeth

AK said...

I am amazed at the constant bitching of these IAF guys. What were they doing since the last 20 years when all these problems were being worked on. Weren't they supposed to be the partner to ADA as they work through the development process. Their condescending attitude has led to the current sorry state of affairs at IAF and it doesn't seem to be getting any better with time. IAF really should be a part of the solution not the part of the problem.

Anonymous said...

Am not an expert.But,just going on the face of it,the Block 30 F-16 at empty weighs 8.5 tonnes and its F410 engine gives a dry thrust of 76 Kn on afterburner max of 127.The Tejas at empty weighs in presently at 5.6 tonnes.The F404 IN gives 53.9 Kn at dry and 85Kn max afterburner.
SO is the LCA that bad?

Mirza said...

Shiv what you think after all you are a expert defense reporter now.
Don't post anything else purely your article.

mathi man said...

The naked truth please:
The reason I read this blog because i want the true picture of defence projects. But for tejas i am still in dark.
@Mod, not giving his final take on Tejas.

Some say it is the best and there is lot of scope for improvement

Some say it is a flying coffin due to very less max speed, and less continuous fly time (only 45 mins?)

I need claification from the author of this blog and not the constant fight in the comments section. If i can .

Anonymous said...

The red theme on the blog is too loud! Can we go back to the blue one which was there before? Or even the black one before that!?

Anonymous said...

Shiv - what is your intention behind the post esp the title? Original article talks about LCA Clearing drop tank jettison test. If you are cut and pasting, why not use the same title? why are you adding your own masala?

Anonymous said...

What is it in the culture of the IAF that they cannot write a paragraph or say a few words without being critical of domestic efforts.

What would you call an air force which mainly imports whatever is available in the international market - 'A hyena on crutches'

Anonymous said...

Looks like 'fratricide' is OK for Air Force guys. The day is not far off when Air Force activities are criticised by all and sundry.

Anonymous said...

Anyway LCA is humble three legged autorickshaw onlee. Atleast it gets us humble yindoos home.

Anonymous said...

We had Marut HF-24 so its not a big deal as we have now dollors and we can built lot of adarsh societies for each foriegn procurments

Anonymous said...

Some retired Air Force gentlemen are worried because the Tejas threatens their food chain.

Anonymous said...

This part always sticks out.

F404 84kN falls short of the Air Staff Requirement.

Then there was the Air Chief who said it will be as good as the grippen when it matures.

Now on thing, people who keep pointing out that Tajes has a borrowed engine and ( I know Kaveri is late).

But what is Grippen using F414 , oh made in Sweden?

Euro fighter euro jet, i guess they are a consortium of a few countries and still struggling in trenches.

China JF-17 what engines are they using? Oh they can reverse engineer and no one would care, probably that is the credit.

And then, ASR of 100kN were they sleeping all the while and well Air force knows better and it's good to know LCA will get a engine that comes close to this.

Which also means there aren't many in the world who uses that high thrust engine for their fighters and atleast a light fighter, which it set out to replace the Mig-21.

Where are these requirements coming from, now don't blame the design outright, people need to know what has been achieved is by no means a small thing to look over.

Funding, yeah, anyone for what 560 crore was meant for :)

Did they want all those 10 aircraft in 560 crore after spending for research and development.

What on earth do people meant it started with a budget of 560 crore can someone stop now!

Sounds so supid on the part of the authors to say that.

It might be better to just say it's cost us 6000 crore to get here.

Then atleast the one who just read and take the word for it have the chance to think okay how much do others spend.

For people who just starts discussions, LCA eperts say it was meant to cost just 560 crore , sounds so lame.

So I'm not lashing out at anyone here, these are the thoughts and a general perspective.

Start thinking!

ArkAngel said...

When we develop our own radar and engine and integrate it with the Tejas ....we will have something to be proud of.
Till then we'll have something for the airshows.

Anonymous said...

@ ArkAngel
and the way to develop those are to sit on our butts , close existing projects and not sanction new ones

Anonymous said...

For these traitors, foreign equipment like the Gripen qualify as a full fledged Cheetah (even with imported engine and radar).

Anonymous said...

I get better picture what is wrong with IAF now.

Anonymous said...

"Further improvements in its stealth components could elevate this wonderful 4th generation fighter to the 5th generation club in the future. "

Is this really possible? What happens if we upgrade the Su-30MKI as well? We could replace the metal parts with composites and add a little stealth shaping to it. Will it be 6th generation? That would be even better than the F-22!

Abhid-d said...

"Ghar ki murgee, daal barabar" is what Air Marshal Bhatia symbolizes.

Forget that he's got some basic facts totally wrong. Forget that he doesn't know the Tejas' timelines at all (which are publicly available). What is astounding is that IAF Air Chiefs and Air Marshalls are hell-bent on writing articles denouncing the Tejas.

I haven't read a single article by a PAF Air Marshall, criticizing their rather primitive JF-17. They know its entirely Made in China. They know its not an F-16. But its their own. And they are proud of it.

Unfortunately in India, we have people like AM Naik, Air Marshal Bhatia, Rajat Pandit and Praful Bidwai, who have such low self-esteem, that they can't feel proud of anything made by India.

Let bygones like Bhatia, A M Naik & Rajat Pandit be bygones. Just celebrate the Tejas' achievements.

rajiv said...

LCA will get better engine and Radar in near future. But this is not reason why IAF is unhappy. Genius who wrote this article if could point us that then the article would have been worth reading otherwise it just a waste of time for us.

Shiv what was the need to post this kind of stuff,whole world know this.

Anonymous said...

The domestic development efforts have to continue unabated despite attempts by vested interests to derail the same. It is very difficult to tell who is on the payroll of foreign governments and equipment sellers.

The role of the GoI becomes all important. Research funding should never be curtailed.

Private sector should be used wherever possible, particularly in production of completed weapon systems as they are not hampered by the cumbersome procurement procedures of the government sector.

Anonymous said...

Jesus...what did you expect??

A 3:d generation aerodynamic design...copied features..20 years developing (with all the lane changes during the project). And this done by one of the poorest countrys in the world where the government can't provide clean water to the citizens...poverty...new born girls considered as second hand humans...give me a break...If you don't focus on other national needs more important than designing an Indian fighter jet...then..well....

Face it...the Tejas mkI is something between a G3 and G4...be proud of it..not bad for a "first" seious attempt.

Anonymous said...

I doubt any one in IAF have 0.0000001% of understanding or knowledge of design, development, manufacture or R&D in aircraft. All I have learnt from my close sources and media, the bunch of buffoons, wake up one day and flip through defense magazines and write their needs for god knows what. In my view the defense personals have no sense of how to develop the weapons in India by Indians.
All the defense force personal have learnt is think of an instant recipe for weapons, look in magazines, do some give and take of money for the weapons. These bunch of guys, guarding the indian space, have no idea about how to develop a technology in given possible time and finance.
May be they have to be taught A,...,Z about technology development and also know Why the F should any nation sell or share the technology developed over years.
Hey, guys when you point a fingure at others, the other four points at you.

One should learn before he/she shouts bad mouth at others, technology development of any kind is not for soft hearted or impatient.
Furthermore, project management or scientific genious do not go hand in hand as management looks to completion of project, where as the scientist tries to create excellent technology. To achieve success in development of product, a marriage between the two is very important.

the terminator said...

Indians have become fantastic flagellants with their innate desire for foreign stuff that they are willing to run down and degrade any indigenous effort.

What we fail to realize is that the indigenous LCA effort has pushed aeronautical engineering and related industries to a scale that was not present in India for decades.

With the LCA Indian scientists and engineers have proven that India has the required expertise to design and manufacture future state of the art aircraft without much foreign assistance.

No other country and its media has the obnoxious record of demeaning indigenous effort as India has done with regards to every Indian effort to be self-sufficient. Glaring examples are the vitriolic tirade against the Arjun, Akash missiles and the LCA just to name a few.

This onslaught against desi effort is being orchestrated by people with vested interest from the Armed forces, politicians, agents of foreign defense suppliers and the ill-informed.

The above miscreants would have been sent to the gulag or shot in China where whatever produced from toys to aircrafts are supposed to be the best in the world.

If these pseudo patriots are to be believed India should not be self-sufficient but pay outsiders our hard earned money to keep their industries making money at our expense.

Anonymous said...

Dear Friends,

May i recommend that you all read the article by Adm Arun Prakash, on the Tejas - a link to which exists on this blog. For info - the author is a test pilot and with far more intellect and competence than credited for in our media.
I feel his assessment is by far one of the best yet to emerge.
Lets contribute to making the project a bigger success than what it is today.

Anonymous said...

The IAF brass knock the LCA because there's no "baksheesh" in it for them. I've had experience designing multiply redundant FCS's and multi-sensor fusion systems. The IAF has no knowledge of a/c or systems design. It appears that ASR's are derived from the glossy and grossly hyped brochures of foreign vendors, rather than any detailed analysis by the IAF.

The LCA's FCS is world class by any standard. I've personally seen the same IAF and Indian MoD personnal who go around criticising the LCA demean themselves in front of foreign vendors of much inferior a/c by asking for cheap little trinkets like pens and flight jackets/wind cheaters with the pictures of the product and manufacturer emblems embalzoned on them, to give to their brats,relatives, and friends.

About ACM Nayak's and his cheap comments at the IOC function, he should pay more attention to his embarrassing paunch rather than heaping unnecessary criticism on the LCA. He's a third-rate tactician and from what I gather had a most un-distinguished record as a fighter pilot and a combat leader.

The IAF and the IA has a lot to learn from the IN. Adm. Arun Prakash (a former test pilot) has recently given a balanced and sensible assessment of the LCA. I doubt whether ACM Nayak could write 4 paragraphs of sensible and credible analysis justifying his derogartory comments about the LCA!

Anonymous said...

There are projects where I am vital played to the design and development of complex self learning systems. The software uses procedure to learn and update the knowledge of machine and a modified version is currently used on Prototype UCAV.
The IAF may read user level properties of this modern UCAV in five years. May be the babus and phantar politicians and armed force officials shout in media, we need the new recipe. The politicians, babus and Armed force personals will look for foreign product, why do not we Indians look for foreign politicians, babis and armed force personals?

Anonymous said...

these natasha fed generals are always against any thing remotily Indian because it will dry up their $$ from arms syndicate you can see the pattern in LCA and Arjun saga .

Anonymous said...

please just check annual budget of P&W, Eurojet,and GE and total budget of GTRE and we expect that GTRE to produce worldbeater engine on these crumbs.I dont know why these ACM raised their voice then instead of wagging tails.

air warrior of IAF (Akashveer) said...

you are Indian or you have also joined these generals who sold their integrity ,pride and loyalty to forgeiners. pls post more positive news

Anonymous said...


Did you mean AM Naik or PV Naik?

Anonymous said...


Now we've turned a full circle.

IAF blames HAL.
HAL blames IAF.

God help us if you're both right and we are to be defended by fools in planes built by idiots

Anonymous said...

I have three takeaways from this gratuitous bashing of the Tejas:

1. Air Marshal (Retd.) Bhatia is either incompetent, a liar or very possibly both. This article reeks of intellectual dishonesty . He deliberately glosses over the very real accomplishments of the Tejas program including CLAW and instead focuses on the radar and engine, conveniently ignoring the fact that even the IAF's much beloved Grippen flies with a GE F-414 engine and Italian Selex radar.

2. I have worked for and have led major technical projects over the course of my career, and based on what has been achieved by ADA, can confidently assert that they have pulled off a major feat of engineering with the Tejas. (The jury is still out on the GTRE though). Regardless I have yet to see any qualifications of Tejas related trash talk by Mr. Aroor, who instead just pastes this crud on his blog in the manner of a sarkari babu.

3. Regrettably, Shiv seems to be stooping to cheap sensationalism (the "three legged cheetah" headline) to garner publicity for his blog.

Manish Mishra said...

you are being too cynical mister aroor...try posting something worth, you journo's know nothing about uncertainty a designer faces...you don't even have a hint...

and then you say you love tejas...why don't you put up a comparison of other planes developed by other nations, time spans and everthing...

what a baffoon you are...IAF, arnt they too 2 be blamed, are they wanna be obslete paf, in case of sanction...what a crap, try posting something better from old magazines you pick up...

MPatel said...

The reason JF-17 has not been criticised by PAF is because it has surpassed their requirements. It's more manoverable than the F-16's they have. Its radar performance compares with their f-16 Blk 52+. If you look at its show in Zhaui...you will realise it is a formidable fighter. Oh it will only get better, with composite coming in BlkII, IRST....it will in the next 2-3 years be the best aircraft in PAF inventory. It has been designed to match against the SU-27/30 in PLAAF. Infacts PAF are so happy that they are beginning to think they don't need even the J-10 anymore...oh and its 1/2 the price of LCA. They are already making 50 of the aircraft at home cost wise...this will rise to almost 80 percent. Before you dis it, it has already been pushing the envelope at 9g. With HMS and 5th WVR, good BVRs (considering the way china is developing tech), PAF have found the answer to guarding their air against the IAF at a fraction of the cost.

Anonymous said...

While we need not needlessly trash the JF-17,as far as pakis are concerned lets remember that they NEVER criticize their forces.The way the military dominates their society,it being seen as Pakistan's only working institution and guardian of Pakistan, even appearing to be infallible cannot be allowed.The truth may go to hell.If your read their version of History,the Pak forces have never lost to India and whatever reverses they had was due to 'external' influences and not due to any effort by India.
Additionally the PAF do NOT criticize the JF-17 because they have NO choice.The JF-17 has been developed at 'friendship' prices and with long term Chinese financing.The Pakis would love to have western aircraft.The PAF always had a dominance of western types and it was seen essential to have them to have a qualitative edge over the IAF,which primarily had soviet/Russian origin aircraft.
The Chinese still have not reached that level of cutting edge in many critical areas.Whatever your efforts,duplicating the expertise and experience of decades of western and even Russian manufacturers is not easy.The problem PAF has is of money.The USA will gift/supply only as per its own goals.The Europeans and others want money,lots of it.So PAF has to stick to the JF-17 regardless.Nevertheless,it cannot be denied that is an asset which must be countered.Though it still cannot be called a game changer in an extensive sense.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @5:06 PM: WRT your statement "The software uses procedure to learn and update the knowledge of machine...", its actually a rule based expert system. These aren't transferred by the have's to the have not's for love or money.

Anonymous said...

The finest feature of the JF-17 is that it is cheap agile BVR capability already in service that fits the requirement of a "Light Combat Aircraft" sufficiently.

Anonymous said...

@ Mpatel
JF-17s better than f16s??thats new...
Its radar is still not finalized (wiki)and is to be upgraded soon
50 to upgraded @ some 1.36 billion $(radar n weaponry) thats 25+mil per a/c....that would push the cost to ~40mil per a/c(present cost is 15 mil as per wiki)

pushing 9g eh...i doubt it..as most anti g suited pilots black out around that....

Anonymous said...

I do not think it is any way correct to degrade something or others based on arrogance and not facts. LCA, JF17... They are both good (enough) and if you all wanna make something like JSF and F22 without errors... Please do.It is so easy to be out of the project and solve everything. I should skip reading these kind of comments. Instead of being proud of what is achieved and talk about facts these posters missed even watching in the mirror.

Anonymous said...

Hey Shiv,

you have good contacts , opportunities, information, what's this with sensationalist attitude.

I understand you work with Headlines Today, but this is your blog , why not be true to yourself.

You think anyone who was live on the press meet on Tejas IOC wouldn't make out the facts, When will this stop.

And the color now, it used to look good for the blog, the Red looks lame, looks like that site that started saying about the Israel ban on Radar for Tejas.

And you don't comeback and comment back on comments, what are you looking for.

When will we see the Shiv we love.

Yeah a bit Frustrated.

Anonymous said...

We had Marut HF-24 so its not a big deal as we have now dollors and we can built lot of adarsh societies for each foriegn procurments

Stupid comments, without knowing how the Babus and politicians who are the proverbials monkeis deciding on the shares of the loot made the fast bucks much above the standards of DRDO. Is DRDO accontable like the three Sevices?

The answer is NO.

So who is who?

satbir said...

IAF officer made a statement at tejas IOC that it is not 4gen yet. Isnt the 1st two batch of Su-30 just those basic 30's. Only from third batch we got MKI standard aircraft and then the 1st two batch were upgraded to MKI standard. Note 1st batch has inferior engine. Today Tejas is been criticized later it will be our pride.

satbir said...

Chinese going for Jf-17 instead of J-10??? wat a joke. Chinese are not going to buy jf-17, y will they Jf-17 is made for 3rd world. Chinese are having problems with J-10 which they want to skip for J-11 which is a copy of Su-27 which is also having problem.
Radar, sensors for Jf-17 is still not finalized and PAF say it is oprational.. hehe
Most funny part JF-17 carry most of it sensers on its Hardpoint(like Infra-red pod, laser pod, protection suite pod) unlike Tajes which carry most internally only Lightning pod externally. Remember JF-17 have only 7 hardpoint of which only 2 will be available for bombs. This is because Paki delinked avionics and Airframe development process to develope Jf quickly.

Anonymous said...

Ok, one candid article about the unnecessarily maligned Kaveri engine is K Prasad garu's 2009 Kaveri report - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5719&start=80. GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements. This bad mismatch of LCA/Kaveri is then squarely IAF's fault!

When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas
a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation.
As this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.
Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support.
Kaveri IS a success, it has met design parameters.
For those who cant design a damn engine and are here just to criticise - go ahead its ur choice. I am in IT sector, there are plenty of examples who have a habit of saying "I dont know how you do it, i want this done by @$#%#$" - seems this is quite common elsewhere also.

From my side, congratulations to GTRE and wish them all the best to take the lessons learnt forward with the next derivatives!