Sunday, February 27, 2011

New Official Schematics Of India's Concept Regional Jet

These are the official new schematics of India's National Civil Aircraft (NCA), under conceptualisation by the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) in Bangalore. The effort is part of an ambitious government-funded campaign to create and build a regional airliner for India and the world market. While little is known about where the programme is currently, there is already debate about whether the limited resources of the aerospace establishment need to be invested in such a large programme, especially when NAL's existing programmes -- the Saras, the NM5 and others -- are nowhere close to completion. Others suggest that such a programme is precisely the sort of thing India's aerospace establishment needs -- something big, solid. Vote below (poll open for 48 hours) and have your say. Let's keep the arguments credible please.

56 comments :

Anonymous said...

Are these pictures created by NAL? If so, why do they quote the height of a US Male?

gone crazy said...

Why cant thy modify Indo-Russian multirole transport ac as a passenger plane, if it can be? saves resouces !

Anonymous said...

Go India Go Show The World What We Are Capable of

Anonymous said...

No doors in the middle? How may seats?

Parth said...

It's a no brainer. This prohgram will benefit india in the following ways.

1. Make jobs in the hi tech aerospace sector for development, design and research.

2. Give rise to a considerable domestic aerospace manufacturing industry which will create even more jobs.

3. These jobs are way more valuable than stupid call centre jobs. This is a high value manufacturing sector, something India has very little of.

4. Save India billions by not importing these high value goods from USA, Europe and now even China.

5. Add to exports.

6. Add to domestic economy.

We should also start the development of other indigenous high value things like High speed trains, construction technologies, microchips, software, fabrication technologies, Power generation equipment, prupulsion systems, CNC machines, modern materials etc. for the same reason.

The nation can't depend on IT and real estate growth forever!

Anonymous said...

Without any doubt, India must develop civil and millitary complex in India.
Civilian aircraft is must for a country like India, and must be made with priority.
Even china is copying and making it , then India can do it far better without any doubt, just India need to do it in a time bound manner.
Now India have enough know how to swiftly move on such projects.
Besides Indian market, it has bright opportunity for export.And a good way to earn foreign currency to support more R&D in India.

Rahul said...

It would be a classic example of foolishness to even to think about commercial value of RTA and for that matter even SARAS, HANSA and yet to fly NAL-Mahindra NM-5. We should remind ourselves that these products are very first of its king in country and should least be respected as building blocks to a grand aeronautical complex. As the saying goes there is no way to Z without crossing ABC. We as a nation with aim of becoming "Regional power" must ship into all waters irrespective of whatever. We need to show that we are not scum in technology or anything. And only way to doing it is by keep stepping ahead.

As for the RTA we are better placed than ever. We have MTA project running and this is going to help us like anything.

My bet wishes to team RTA.

Rahul said...

@ gone crazy

MTA is a cargo lifter with high/shoulder mounted wings and bulbous fuselage. As far as cargo lifting is concerned these features are necessary but in airliner segment these features affects 'cruise performance' and 'cost per flight' negatively. On contrary RTA features a sleek fuselage and low mounted wings, these will help it in achieving relatively better cruise performance and in lowering the cost per flight. And these features are something which can't be compromised as far as regional transport aircraft is concerned. Said that, it most certain because of timeline that MTA and RTA will share much in common.

Sontu said...

I think we instead of developing another civil aircraft like NRCA,we should use the Indo-Russian MRTA's body/fuselage itself and then customize the same interiors for a Regional Aircraft role...as the MRTA seems having better landing gear and strong fuselage suitable for landing in small and semi-prepaired runways in north east and north himalayan terrian challange.
I feel this would be most cost effective and quicker solution.

Thanks,

Mirza said...

Why not!

Som said...

Trying to re-invent the wheel !

Anonymous said...

@Parth

India doesn't depend on IT or real estate even now.

There are no export market available in the world which is already crowded by many aerospace giants. Before thinking of exports, first NAL should complete its existing projects. Even if it completes, there is no manufacturing facilities available here.

On your comment on importing expensive things from US, what do you think are India going to set manufacturing facilities here. India is again to import components from US / Europe.

Gautam said...

Oh, please. NAL can't even develop a 14-seater passenger plane without running to Russia for help. Who are they going to get to do their work for them this time? Airbus? Boeing?

Focus on your many, many military projects first. Tejas Mk.2 won't arrive till 2018, God only knows hen AMCA will happen. Use your (limited) talent to speed that up instead.

coolgeek said...

These opinion makers were there even when India started its space program...
FORGETTTTT THEM....
May be including a partner country may not be a bad idea in light of the huge demand from the domestic market and the need to export...
GO INDIA GO...

Anonymous said...

More on Indian Regional Jet

First flight 2014-15
Introduced 2017


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Regional_Jet

Anonymous said...

Please consider the strenghtening of the forward landing gear so that it can be towed from the gate to the start of the launch on the runway. This will lead to great amount of fuel savings in busy airports. Boeing and Airbus cannot do it because their landing gears are not strong enough to do this.

Anonymous said...

Have no choice but to build it. If you don't, then the scientists that were supposed to build this jet in india would head abroad looking for job. They would then build this same jet abroad; and India would then have to import this same jet for 2X the price of an indigenous jet.

BTW, from where is the engine going to come? Is there any indigenous engine for this type of jets?

alma said...

ahh come one.... Even the "mighty" russians neded these partners to build a modern 80-100seater:

Sukhoi Superjet 100:
# Project leader: United Aircraft Corporation
# Strategic partner: Alenia Aeronautica
# Risk-sharing partner: Snecma
# Main designer: Sukhoi
# Consultant: Boeing
# Aircraft Main System Suppliers: Thales (avionics),[8] Liebherr (landing gear), Messier Dowty (control systems), Intertechnique (Zodiac) (fuel system), B/E Aerospace (interior), Autronics (fire protection system), Honeywell (APU), IPECO (crew seats), Parker Hannifin (hydraulic system), Hamilton Sundstrand (electrical system), Vibro-Meter (engine vibration sensor), Sully, BF Goodrich.
# Engines: PowerJet (Snecma and Saturn)

this is the sad reality...

Kuljeet Singh said...

Yet another waste of taxpayers money.. Yet another endless project for NAL

Anonymous said...

This project will be dead from the start if it is taken up in the public sector because it is a globally competitive business.

This project should have diversified stakeholders as follows:
Airlines(Both domestic and foreign)
Suppliers with facilities in India
GOI via the the design agency
State Govt which offers best package

Nobody should have more than 'X' percentage shareholding. The 'X' should be in single digits

If there is enough interest, public participation should be postponed to provide incentive to co-promoters.

Anonymous said...

Fortunately this project does not depend on the Air Force or Army. GoI / NAL should ensure that they work closely with the stakeholders ie the Airlines and suppliers to get this project right. NAL should only expect royalty from this project. The other stakeholders should be offered equity in the project. It is more important to get this project right than to worry about who runs this project.

Anonymous said...

NAL should work with potential customers successfully to show to the IAF (Imported Air Force) and IA (Imported Army) that it is their thick headedness which is playing spoilsport with the domestic programmes.

Anonymous said...

before making these photoshop photos nal should try to complete saras they cant even copy saras from original design and now giving bigger projects to them is highest stupidity atleast they should tie up with multiple well established agencies otherwise this will become biggest failed project for india

Anonymous said...

If GoI is smart, they do not have to spend a penny on this project other than NAL contribution. NAL should seek royalty for its efforts. Funding for the project should not be a problem at all if Airlines and suppliers are taken into confidence. A single meeting with the airlines and suppliers with enough notice should clear up this matter.

Sandy said...

Let them first make the Saras fly. Sell some 30 of them. Let them try to come up with the Jet version of saras. Them let them complete the NM5 project. Let them build a 30-40 seater aircraft. Then move to RTA. The basics is yet corrected to the aircraft projects undertaken. I am not entirely against dreaming. But dreaming also should have a limit of possibility of achievement. Where is Saras!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

Anonymous said...

Zameen se uge nahi, aasman choone chale.

Phani said...

Instead of public sector taking these kind of projects, the government should encourage the private sector to work on civilian aircraft. Too many projects are not going to help.

Anonymous said...

They haven't been able to complete the Saras, now they want to start another.

Is there no accountability?
And what makes them think they can compete with Boeing and Airbus, there is absolutely no market for them.

Anonymous said...

Now I hate myself for paying taxes

Anonymous said...

creating a new aircraft is good, but we want the answer for below...

1) We already have similar projects of an airliner.
2) We didn't produce a world class engine of our own fighter jet, its process is going on..so we lack experience in its power-plant.
3) Other competitors are there Boeing, EADS, Embraier etc..who were more capable than us.
4) Whether the cost of this project will come under the budjet or will it may overrun..
5) Do we have highly sophisticated facility centers, avionics, test facilities, capability for developing technologies like RADAR,avionics,advanced systems.

for these questions it is generally difficult to answer. According to me it is necessary to develop facility and the most important thing is we need a competitor in our own country, then only we can compete outside our country...

Anonymous said...

Dont you get all bored and vexed with these schematics and sketches with no final product.

this is what showing swarg in your palm.

Mr. Kaul , I wonder why you dont get bored posting these schematics every time.

Anonymous said...

Definately India has the ability to do this. It is not perfect and has some negatives, but so does everyone else. If they can do it with all their negatives, then definately India can do it.

BTW, India also has many positive qualities: lots of scientists, hard working and honest scientists, (I honestly believe this) the smartest scientists (math and software, etc.); unlike before, many testing facilities and a knowledge base from other projects, etc..

Anonymous said...

I think we all need to commend the wonderful photoshop talent that our beloved scientists have.

All I can say is "Bravo!"

You might not know how to make a complete jet, but damn, you are better than Adobe when it comes to making images on photoshop.

Anonymous said...

No. because :
1. they have demonstrated zero expertise in managing a project of this scale without huge budget overruns
2. competitors are well established and decades in front when it comes to technology, safety (saras crash) and brand reputation. Heavily entrenched players like Boeing, Airbus and to some extent Embraer have economies of scale and are almost impossible to replace at this point.
3. ROI of drdo labs is abysmal especially the NAL
4. we don't have to copy everything that the chinese do.
5. invest instead in shoring up the saras and HAL's investment in LCA/ALH programmes. NAL can't get a 10 seater off the ground yet reliably.
6. will you really fly in a NAL built plane from delhi to bangalore or in an airbus/boeing? commercial passenger plane design is incredibly complex and has huge liabilities. you may get away with a crash of air force pilots but commercial travel is different. You'll be sued all the way to the Hague if anything damaging like the reports on the Saras crash come up. Will result in huge liability and insurance costs. Will be a huge barrier to land customers unless its the govt carrier (Air India) which also will not be gullible.

Anonymous said...

No one will buy it.

Anonymous said...

@ parth. I agree with you.

Anonymous said...

When Saras, a minor project in comparison is still pending completion, there is no reason for NAL to start another.

Anonymous said...

When companies like IndiGo, Air India and Indian Airlines have already ordered other aircraft, and there seems to be no international market for this aircraft, it is foolish to go in for such a project.

Be pragmatic and answer my question:

Who will buy it?

Anonymous said...

First we create the demand for talent by creating projects like these, then only we can nurture the talent. Experienced talent does not come without projects. Let's go ahead. Don't bother about the negative comments. Many of them are from those who want to discourage us.

Rewards are in proportion to the risks.
A risk averse nation does not make any big leaps.

Anonymous said...

I do not have the amount of funds to buy this jet. However,if I did, I would definately buy this jet. And I would much rather fly in this jet than others. Most companies abroad are about profit first and customer second. Therefore, they usually build lower qulity jets, so they can have a larger profit. Next, the people who build those jets are crooks and drug abusers. I also think Indian scientists are much better quality than the rest.

Anonymous said...

Hi,

Is there any more details for the turboprop, high wing layout.

It will be a fabulous replacement for our An-32s and in the right time too.

Indranil Roy

Anonymous said...

This would be competing against the new Mitsubishi Regional Jet and `legacy` Embraer / Bombardier regional jets. The latter would be easy to beat, the first not so much, but the whole point is to focus on a niche that you can have a compelling advantage.

But commercial aviation has high standards. If India expects to export this, they will need full maintenance platform developed... This is what Boeing and Alenia and LufthansaTechnik helped Sukhoi with on their Superjet (which is in a higher seat class and range class, so isn`t competing with this proposed plane).

Best thing right now is probably getting up to speed as a sub-component provider for real commerical projects. Boeing sub-contracts out huge portions to Mitsubishi and Alenia, HAL should look for opportunities to build up it`s commercial-level production skills.

Anonymous said...

India completes basic trainer trials

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/28/353690/india-completes-basic-trainer-trials.html

Anonymous said...

Given the past performance of NAL, there is not doubt that this will be just another abyss in which we throw money and get no returns.

Not even Indian Airliners will buy these if they are made.

Plus, not to forget, all Indian Airliners have very recently given massive contracts to Boeing and Airbus, so their needs are over for quite sometime to come.

And personally, I feel NAL/HAL should concentrate on the needs of the Armed Forces and leave this.

Anonymous said...

Anon@4:07 AM

I work for Boeing and am damn proud of it. And I am no drug abuser.

I am happy that I'm not an incompetent fool working for a two bit company with no future. The only reason why HAL/NAL continue to exist is because of your taxes.

Try not to disregard good work of other peoples just because you can't do anything yourself.

FYI, Our products are years ahead of yours, that's why when you want to buy something good, you come to us, be that the P-8I Poseidon or the C-17 Globemaster III.

So some respect in return will be good.

Anonymous said...

Anon@12:22 PM
TAXES ARE THE SAME RESON WE PURCHSED YOUR PLANES SO IT OUR MONEY WE WILL DO WHAT WE LIKE IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WHAT THE HECK CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT HUH

Anonymous said...

Anon@12:22 boeing doesn't need to ask for respect. they command it. im an indian and u'll be well served ignoring the idiots.

the drdo dreams are getting weird at this point when their countless projects are lying in the pits (saras, arjun etc.). let them deliver to the armed forces production quality and international standard gear before laying their hands on any more money. deliver the tejas foc mk1 and mk2, deliver the saras, deliver the UAV's, deliver the arjun, deliver the rest of the stuff pending and then we can look at this. or we'll end with another "deliver *" and billions of dollars in the drain. move the people and money onto those pending deliveries before signing up for anything else.

Gautam said...

"I do not have the amount of funds to buy this jet. However,if I did, I would definately buy this jet. And I would much rather fly in this jet than others. Most companies abroad are about profit first and customer second. Therefore, they usually build lower qulity jets, so they can have a larger profit. Next, the people who build those jets are crooks and drug abusers."

And you are a half-blind, naive and idiotic fellow who is easily misled by the slightest hint of jinhoistic speech. The same sort of 'crooks' made the clothes you are wearing, the computer you are typing on, and the house you are living in. First divest yourself of these and go roll naked in the government mud like the patriot you imagine yourself to be.

If our government wanted to sanction a new project like this it should have gone to the private sector insted of flushing more money into NAL. 10 years later these same mahan government scientists will put up CGI images of a 200-seater airliner here while RTA-70 crashes and Boeing is brought in to finish it.

Anonymous said...

Mr.Boeing you are right and I am wrong. SORRY!

Anonymous said...

India needs its own passenger Aircraft. But most of all, the real reason India should build this plane are the following, and this goes for every plan that would help to develop indigenous technology;

>Keep the money here.
>Develop cutting-edge local
technology.
>Foster National pride.
>Build a TRULY Independent Nation.

Anonymous said...

Mr.Boeing is wrong...recently some X from Boeing came for some y project to a Z company(indian bakara)with all laptops,project management s/w etc....made lot of noise about AS9001 standards etc....Z as usual made a 3D model and sent it to Boeing. The product was delivered to Boeing. After some time the indian bakara company received a message from Boeing stating that the unit is not fitting... indian bakaras were stunned to note that the unit could not be fitted because of an airduct,which was not foreseen and projected by Boeing project team during their interaction.indian bakaras made an alternate arrangement and saved the situation. so much for laptop based project management from Boeing.!!!!

Anonymous said...

@Anon 6:07

First of all, I would like you to give me a link to prove your claim.

Secondly, I don't claim that we are infallible, we are just better.

Atleast our birds are flying and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't India coming to us for our products because your 'scientists' are incapable of anything?

Sandy said...

Gautam seems to be intoxicated by patriotism. Later part of his message also shows some pragmatism.

Anonymous said...

Our scientists are capable of a lot, they dont have to bribe others like you do!!

Anonymous said...

Our scientists are capable of a lot, they dont have to bribe others like you do!!

Fifth estate concept said...

Hi.. Can you update me with the details for the turboprop, high wing layout..