Sunday, March 27, 2011

REPORT: Indian C-17 Deal Hits Air Pocket


Copyright The Indian Express

60 comments :

Rajkumar said...

Oh Come on... We got a lot or rupees... (S-Band, CWG, 2G) those poor gauys need a bit of that... So let it be...

Serious- Why is that every issue that requires back channel talks or diplomatic solutions reach out to public? Is it a way to build pressure on the US that,''Look man I have government to run, now our people know u sold it to the kangroos at 300 million. Now either 300 million is the deal or a bye-bye.''

Anonymous said...

Check the US DOD budget for how much C-17 and spares and services cost. Realism means more than you would prefer to spend.

The A-400M or An-70 may well be able to accomplish most of the missions C-17 would be used for. Had MoD not ignored easily available facts like how much C-17 and spares actually cost, either of the other options could have been put into effect several years ago and be closer to Indian service had they been selected in a comparison to the C-17 of costs vs. capabilities vs. IAF needs.

Do your job and there are less surprises...

Anonymous said...

Why india do such things at the last moment? what were the officials doing earlier? due to this attitude we were always at the receiving end of such deals?!

www.bharatgaurav.com said...

I love American system but "Ek Pardesi mera dil le gaya" Russians are true friends we must not falter in defence matters

ADI said...

India should cancel the deal as soon as possible, then US will understand how much they need India

Anonymous said...

All the making of another scam..Knowing that India needs to spend $100 billion over next few years to bring its military to shape, everyone is seeling India military wares at jacked up prices.

$5.8 Billion is pretty steep is same were sold to Australia for $300 million a piece..even if we take the spares argument, are they selling spares to build completely new C17 from spare if diffrence is 100% in cost??

We are even cosidering buying conventional submaries at $1 bn a piece. For that kind of money we can get nuclear ones ???

Sukhoi has suddenly jacked up the price of Su30 MKI by more then 40% looking at how much India has for MMRCA..

Why the hell are we looking at MMRCA if none of the plaes are better then SUMKI and cost much more..we are anyways at a technology cusp with Gen 5 coming in. Makes more sense to buy SU 30MKI/SU35 with AESA then the whole MMRCA thing. Even Russian president Medvedev has warned Russian Arms industy from jacking up prices given Russians will be buying $600 bn worth of arms..

We should act more prudently with where we put our money..at $45 million a pice the
IL 76 is much better buy from moving men and material from point A to B

Anonymous said...

IL-76 is $45 million a piece vs a C-17 at $300-500 million !!!

My God!!!

And we still want the C-17?

Snip Snip Snip ASAP.

AK said...

Yawnnnnnn!
Same ole, same ole...

Anonymous said...

Russians are far worse than the Americans. They have been doubling or tripling the price over the contracted amount with so sign of actual delivery of goods. The Nerpa, which was supposed to be handed over in 2008 and then this 20th March, has now again been deferred till Oct of this year. We need to play hardball and keep our options open i.e. develop strong ties with Ukrainians and Europeans, so that no one can take us for granted. We must not pay a single penny more than the price at which they have sold his bird to other countries.

Anonymous said...

Sukhoi has jacked up price of su30 more than 100% and not 40%. This is pure daylight robbery. We need defense eqps but not at this inflated prices. We must look at other options which are cost effective. These countries know the rot within our own system, hence they have inflated the prices disproportionately, which also includes the money paid by way of kickbacks.

Anonymous said...

is it worth that everytime you should buy american toys through foreign military sales(FMS) route and not tendering the process

Anonymous said...

scam scam scam 300 - 500 million $ for a plane !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
india should purchase IL-76

Anonymous said...

Do the math.

For $5.8 Billion, we can get 10 C-17s or 116 Il-76s.

We are being ripped off.

There should have been a tender just like the MMRCA. Sure, the C-17 is technologically superior to the Il-76, but the competition would have forced them to lower rates.

Anonymous said...

Are the people in the Defense Ministry so stupid?

Anyone with an internet connection could have told that the C-17 is over priced for us.

Anonymous said...

Even if we suppose that the aircraft costs $200 million, how can you come to terms with the claim that the spares and infrastructure would cost $380 million?

Well, in that case, there is no point in having spares, you can buy two instead of one, we don't need spares!

We still save $180 million.

Anonymous said...

Modernize the Il-76 fleet, there is no point in going for this overpriced jet.

I don't understand why India cant leverage it's position on the international stage, India can easily get French help on the Il-76 if it so desires, it could be Il-76MKI!

Anonymous said...

If you eliminate the competition, and ensure that there is only one jet that you'll buy, this is what you get.

India should have asked more companies to compete in a tender like the MMRCA.

Unfortunately, the IAF made it very clear that the Boeing C-17 is the only aircraft that will suit them. So deal with it suckers!

Anonymous said...

Khan has not renounced to rape India!

Paul said...

Scrap this purchase of C17 III and have a showdown for heavy lift aircraft's just like MMRCA......

(For the record purchase more that 10 aircraft's to sweeten the deal)

Mr. Ra said...

Perhaps the nation is getting rid of an unfair deal. They may be loading extra Libyan factor on their prices.

It is better to purchase correct version of Ilyushins, where competitive prices can be obtained between Russia and Ukraine.

I do not know yet as in what aspect SU-30MKI/Su-35 were inferior to any contender of MMRCA, except for the AESA which could have been anyhow developed.

Anonymous said...

I am of the opinion that we should resort to reverse engineering and build our own versions as the Chinese do. There is a ToT agreement and I believe that the transfer of knowledge happens...so if that is true, why cant we reverse engineer and bring out a Su-30MKI of our own...maybe the engine will be a challenge...those we can buy from the Russians!

Anonymous said...

It is time for the ratshakers that support US come clean. They are as bad as the Kalmadi team.

Chandan said...

Seems some patriots are still there in MOD which have raised this issue...good to see this ...Time to look beyond IL-76 and C-17....

Anonymous said...

Does this include the price for the UN seat?!!

Come on GOI grow a spine and show us some tough as nails bargaining. We know the russians played a merry game on the IL spares and later version MKI prices. And our solution is that getting kicked around by two parties is a lot better.

On another level indigenous solutions [too late for this type of plane] is required so as to ensure we do not get looted by all and sundry.

Anonymous said...

dats because boeing should pay out our babus and netas from A-Z hence the additional 100+ mil USD.

so dont blame boeing alone

Anonymous said...

Hey...its not correct to criticize foreign purchases you RATs..

Anonymous said...

I thik scrap deal becos etna mahnga plane wo bhe FMS rout se il 76 to 1/3 me mel jayga aur iaf ko koun sa bar bar alaska me airbase kiolna hi jo amunt save hoge 2 scorden ban jayga ye boeing aur amrika ne UNSC ka toy dekha kr lot rahe hi russin bhe price incrse kar rahe hi frnch 400m lo oew plne

Jake Lor said...

@Anonymous
SHUT UP! IL-76 SUCKS THE C-17 IS WAY BETTER THAN SOVIET RUSTY CARGO.

Jake Lor said...

@ADI
Shut up! India is interesting the C-17. Fuck off from US and India arms deal. BITCH!

Jake Lor said...

@Mr. Ra

India isn't interest the Russian Su-35. India need another fighters to performed against the PLAAF fighter aircraft the J-10B/FC-20 & JF-17/FC-1.

The F-18E/F Super Hornet Block II going win. India want a cheap aircraft, aircraft have AESA radar, and two engine aircraft. The Super Hornet Block II is a good choice for India.

Anonymous said...

How about An124? they can carry much more load than C17. each An124 costs 100 million $s. For a cargo plane do you need to shell out 1/2 billion$? This seems like stealing balloons from a baby. Something is rotten in the state of.......

Mr. Ra said...

How these two aircrafts compare with reference to Useful Load Vs Price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-17_Globemaster_III

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-124

"Germany led the recent effort to lease An-124s for NATO strategic airlift requirements."

"In late 2009, it was reported that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered production of the aircraft resumed. It is expected that Russia will purchase 20 new aircraft."

It will be a revelation to understand that C17 is decisively better suited than the AN124. Lol...

Anonymous said...

what is happening india.i dont understand.high price for western equipment where same technology and fine technology we can get from Russia.i think kill all corrupt politicians and military personnel with out delay or our country will be jeopardize or china will demolish us.

Anonymous said...

The price package includes the aid given to Pakistan for its F16 fighters to get air superiority over the Taliban air force.India has to bear that expense as war on terror is very important and has to bear the expenses for the money for blood deal for Raymond Davis. There is also 15% surcharge for ( chauth) protection money that every goonda charges to give protection.

Anonymous said...

yeah Milk Milk......strip India naked. Bastards these Pro some country lobbyists. Why could not these people do their work before starting the deal. What the hell is going on in INDIA?

Anonymous said...

IL-76 may be a lot cheaper, but it cannot carry an Arjun... and therefore C-17 came into picture. There is no point in comparing price of C17 to IL76.... you can have 5 to 10 IL76, but it's not like you can tape a couple of those together and make it wide enough to carry an Arjun. I totally see why MOD picked C17.

On the issues of price, don't blame the Americans. They stated the price up front, it's not like it was hidden somewhere. If MOD thought the price was high, they should have either negotiated or walked away. Any thing American, and the Indian press will jump all over it. The problem is with our babus.... it was their job to negotiate, if they do not know how to negotiate a fair price, it's not the fault of the seller. The seller can ask for anything they want, it's the buyer's job to decide what they want to pay for it and stick to that.

They way our media and the babus seem to playing this is... the big bad America took advantage of our poor innocent babus, how could they do this to us. Oh we feel cheated.

What a bunch of BS.

Anonymous said...

America pays huge amounts for their military goods, this is widely known. Going thru FMS is not going to get a better price, by definition the price is fixed to what the US pays. In some cases a deal direct with manufacturer could find a lower price... but this requires competent negotiators who can also find creative solutions... as was successfully done in the Mirage 2000 upgrade.

And guess what? Military goods coming in over budget is not some unique scam being played on India. It applies to the US, EU, many other countries... Having competent procument office in MoD, competent indigenous industry, and broad relations with as many producer countries as possible, to find the most competitive fit for needs is the best you can achieve. Whining when FMS costs exactly as anybody could expect doesn`t change this, but it diverts from focusing energy on the difficult tasks which are the only way forward, even if the end result isn`t as amazing as one would wish.

Chandan said...

@ ABOVE

Hey...then A-124 comes into the picture...if not ...go to europe and search something !!!!

@Shiv Aroor..

Yarr please carry out a full scale debate over this issue involving personals form MOD , IAF etc and make public aware...

Let us try to prevent a SCAM here rathre than regretting later!!!

Anonymous said...

@ Anon 542 AM


the problem is always with our babus!!!...had they signed the deal..it would have been their fault...not it is their fault for not signing!!!>..sometimes..the problem is with our self righteous attitudes..

In fact they are doing better...now that this $5bn deal is trumped all around the US job market to show that US govt is pushing hard to save US jobs..and then if it turns out that US govt lost the deal coz they decided to charge as much as they were planning to (so that the companies benefit I suppose) there will be questions asked!!...

What better way of negotiating???

Anonymous said...

- 200 % ike for the Harpoon compared to Pak
- Close to 30 % for the C17,
- No ToT
- Intrusive obligation from the USA in the daily use of our own product,
- crazy spares and maintenance prices...


Being a strategic partner of the USA is a highly rewarding situation!! Thanks uncle Sam!

bertrandviolette said...

Choose european, buy A400M.
More versatile, new plane, total technology transfert.

Michael said...

The IAF is acting like a really bad case of a nouveau riche. Buy now think later... And then blame the seller...

Gautam said...

I wonder if the Russians bribed the MoD to consider their new IL-476.

Anonymous said...

@5:42AM

Granted the Il-76 cannot carry the Arjun, but it can carry T-90s and T-72s which are the main workhorses of our armored force.

In addition, India does not have the same requirements as the US to send loads of tanks half way across the world.

Most of India's tanks are aimed towards Pakistan, and therefore such carriage capacity is unwarranted.

Furthermore, the price is unjustifiable.

With the rest, I agree with you.

Mr. Ra said...

Deployment of Arjun MBT may not be blamed for purchase of exorbitantly costlier C-17s, because earlier they were not in a mood to provide even the railway wagons for transport of Arjun.

Hundreds of Arjuns can be procured within the differentially high prices of C-17 and can be judiciously deployed in advance if the need be.

For any specially required deployment of Arjuns over the T-90s, I think AN-124 can be a much cheaper and better alternative.

Anonymous said...

I can easily figure out how our politicians and agents who are in defense can earn money in each defense deal.Why we can't be like producing local parts like china...I clearly see in future this bastard politicians and top defense agent persons,defense officals will sale india to cheap or china will occupy india......We need good governence under Abdul kalam as president...We dont need congress or BJP or anyother parties....

Anonymous said...

Well, aerotransporting MBT by plane must remain the exception since the associated cost for transporting ONE tank in such a plane is...exhorbitant !! Is it the only argument for C-17, which remains a superb airplane but a very costly one ?

Anonymous said...

A great drawback for F-18 jet in mmrca .

Anonymous said...

On the one hand....Arjun is rejected saying its too bulky...then we buy C17s to carry em....mm...or

how about this....we buy say 20 Il76 @ 45 mil...thats what 900mil total...and the rest we spend on the Arjuns and have em closer to where we want??i suppose we would still be left with some amount

Or maybe we but 20 An 124s..(they can carry the Arjun n much more)..thats $2Bn..@ 18crores per tank..that would be 250 tanks/$1bn..i think you could get 500 tanks...and still be left with another anything between 100 mil to $1.8bn to bring up whatever infrastructure it takes to introduce Arjun!!!

thats a lot of equipment.....

But i suppose one must not criticize US products....

Anonymous said...

All those An-124 fans (Including myself)... ask your self, is An-124 in production. No, it's not, those lines have been stopped and only hope is the talk of reviving the production. Is A-400 in Production? no it's still in development with a prototype or two flying.... and there are probably orders from the developing nations that will be filled prior to touching a single bolt for the Indian request. I agree that C17 is extremely expensive, but the decision to purchase C17 was taken by MOD, not the US. The contract though not signed, should have negotiated the price point early on and not wait until this late to raise that question. If the price is too high, stop the drama and get to the negotiation table, and if still not right, walk away and wait for A400 or An-124.

Anonymous said...

@ 601.

An 124 is in production!!!.....

Anonymous said...

India paid a hell of a lot more for the C-130J planes as well. Why is no one talking about that deal?

Anonymous said...

india is getting screwed by everyone....

Anonymous said...

Someone has to pay for the free planes for Pakistan.

Michael said...

India has to stop its pointless dithering and start forging a solid alliance with the US. Its old patron the USSR is no more and its current form, Russia, is not in a position to provide a strategic deterrence against China. The latter in the meantime has just forged a new strategic alliance with Nepal (after Pakistan). It seems that India is being slowly incircled by China. What will India do in response?

The hightech multi-billion dollars Indian companies is only one example of the kind of success that a strong US-India alliance can produce.

And on this C-17 deal, the IAF must get its acts together. It must study transactions very well before entering into them. If it did its math well and early it could have made its observation (granting they are valid) in time not to embarass the other party in the future. If it is not yet ready to enter the First World leagues of defense spending then it must decide early than looking funny trying to force a bargain after it already agreed to buy the item. In this case both India and the US are put in compromisisng positions.

Anonymous said...

investing in strategic lifters at such a heavy price is diverting available funds. given that our defence acquisition budget is not much. what if an aircraft is shot down or destroyed at the base itself in case of war. we lose somewhere around 2500 crores since even with spares you cannot repair a destroyed craft. Also it will come with lot of strings as usual. Do we have modern airfeilds near borders which can handle such big aircrafts?. what is the use of a strategic lifter which plies only in central India and we use trucks and trains to 'lift' to borders. given that our border feilds can handle only medium lifters may be we should invest in medium lifters in more numbers.
it may be best available lifter of the kind but with such price we may better rethink.
why not think out of box going for coproduction with some bankrupt russian or Ukrainian company, like paying for development since we may not have the required techknowhow. it may take time, but defenitely faster than the routes our MMRCA took. may be around 2020 -25.
US companies know business well, so if they find you have options they will negotiate for a better deal.

Anonymous said...

Screw the amercians - go for the new extended IL76 - buy twice the number and still have enough for a nuclear submarine or two...

Gautam said...

The C-17 is the only aircraft in its size and weight class. These morons talking about IL-76 know jack.

That plane isn't even in production yet(the Chinese are asking for their money back because the 38 they ordered years ago still haven't arrived). Even if it were the IL-476 cargo bay is too small for the IAF's needs.

People praise the AK Antony ministry for being 'clean'. Hah! They are only clean because they can't approve a single defence purchase successfully! What little they have approved(like Scorpene) is chock full of bribery, delays and cost overruns.

niranjan said...

Hey Come on, $580 Million is a reasonable Price.
Here is the calculation,

Boeing - $200 Million
US Lobbyists - $75 Million
US Politicians - $75 Million
Indian Politicians - $150 Million
Indian Military Personals - $80 Million

If not balanced, Let's change the equation.......

That's It.....

Anyhow Russians won't give the Bribes, So the Indian Politicians looking for US...

What's wrong in this?

Now another deal with Boeing for Attack & Heavy Lift Helicopters

Same equation.........

niranjan said...

Hey Come on, $580 Million is a reasonable Price.
Here is the calculation,

Boeing - $200 Million
US Lobbyists - $75 Million
US Politicians - $75 Million
Indian Politicians - $150 Million
Indian Military Personals - $80 Million

If not balanced, Let's change the equation.......

That's It.....

Anyhow Russians won't give the Bribes, So the Indian Politicians looking for US...

Another deal with US FMS program for Attack & Heavy Lift Aircraft......

Same formula........

What's wrong in this?