Thursday, April 14, 2011

IAF Hunts For New Medium-range SAMs

With troubles afflicting joint indigenous MR-SAM programme, the Indian Air Force has called for information to support a stop-gap acquisition of medium range surface to air missile systems. According to the RFI, each firing unit (FU) should be able to function independently and should also be able to interact with other Firing Units (FUs) within a common engagement zone to avoid overkill. The FU should have following components: (a) Multifunctional Radar (MFR). This radar should be active phased array radar for 3D target information to the centralised control unit. It should be able to feed the information to the centralised network for overall command and control. This radar should be able to provide Early Warning (EW) upto a long range. It should have capability of Track While Scan (TWS). (b) Fire Control Unit. This unit would be fed with the information from the MFR for exercising command and control over the complete firing system. It should be able to prioritise the threats and allocate resource as per the threat evaluation. (c) Launchers. System should have number of launchers with the minimum numbers to be specified. These launchers should be highly mobile and should have number of missiles. Launch capability should be specified. (d) Missiles. The missiles should have an active seeker. (e) System Simulator. For training of operators one simulator should be an integral part of FU. It should be able to generate all kind of scenarios.

40 comments :

Anonymous said...

The air force has gone mad with import fever. What all are being sacrificed to meet their import mania - education, health, R&D, infrastructure ....

Looks like all this will be stopped only when scams are exposed. Losing respect rapidly for the uniformed forces.

Anonymous said...

sir cant the astra missille be used in SAM mode like the amraam in the pic above . And what range category does the akash fill in the IAF inventory

Anonymous said...

"With troubles afflicting joint indigenous MR-SAM programme" : you mean the co-development program with IAI ? Which troubles do you refer to ? I thought the program is right on track...

Anurag said...

What happened to our Maitri missile..that was something like MR-SAM.??
To me its not a good news.I'm not trying to be pessimistic but
I thought after Akaash SAM,we have indigenised(or joint collaboration) the SAM part of our defense.

Rakka said...

joint indigenous MR-SAM -- Is this indo-israeli or indo-french ??

Anonymous said...

stop-gap acquisition of medium range surface to air missile systems :P

Why not induct more akash as a stopgap??. Phoren maal ki khujli ho rahi hai??

Hurry Up!!! LOK PAL is coming soon.

Anonymous said...

The RFI for Medium range SAM by IAF is day light robbery of indian tax payers, a new way of earning for babus, IAF personals and politicians.

Why cannot the IAF, babus and politicians being paid by us, plan 5/10/20 years needs for defence?
Why cannot we clean the DRDO's HR, where intelligence and not reservation based on cast, religion, region is discarded ?
Why cannot we have atmosphere where opportunity for growth is promoted in R&D or industry?

These bunch of F head live on our tax money but cannot create opportunity in India. If they are so smart, why should they join IAF, IAS or politics, why do not they join in business world?

Abid said...

This means:
Our Rajendra Phased array radar has failed.
Our Aakash & Trishul system are not meeting expected result.
Although BEL has manufactured and equipped some squadrons of IAF with Aakash missile.
If this is not the cause, why IAF is hunting for new SAMs

Mr. Ra said...

What about Barak or other JV programs.

Eagle said...

India should invest more on Akash missile.More jv with Israelis & French.No need to buy any more SAM.

Anonymous said...

What a BS situation. I smell corruption, big time. How many types of SAMs they want?! And whats the rush?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@1.46PM: Even if the Astra BVRAAM were to be modified as a SAM it will have a range of no more than 20km, i.e. something akin to a SHORADS. The Akash Mk1, although described as MR-SAM by the DRDO, is in essence an E-SHORADS, given its 25km-range. What the Army wants is something between 40km and 70km, i.e. a land-based Barak-2/8 or an Aster 15 from MBDA, as those are the only MR-SAMs using active phased-array target acquisition/engagement radars.

To Anon@2.07PM: You're spot on. There's no R & D problem with the joint development of the Barak-2/8 MR-SAM. The RFI quoted above is in fact seeking information about both the Barak-2/8 and Aster 15.

To Anurag: The Maitri is a SHORADS, not MR-SAM. This project is in trouble, as is the upgrade of the IAF Mirage 2000H/THs. There is now an increased likelihood that both these programmes may be cancelled.

To Abid: The Akash Mk1 and its Rajendra engagement radar are already under series-production for both the IAF and Army. All R & D challenges of the Akash Mk1 were overcome more than two years ago.

Bulusu said...

Israel is the largest arms supplier to India, eclipsing
Russia. This success is due in part to the provision of
Israeli-built air defense systems to the Indian military.


India's ties with the Jewish state began in 1999, when
Israel provided equipment and other support during the
Kargil War. The fighting took place in the Kargil
district of Kashmir between May and July 1999 and
pitted Indian troops against a mixture of Pakistani
paramilitaries and Kashmiri militants.


At first, India simply purchased air defense systems
directly from Israel. The ordering of the Barak missile
for Indian Navy warships is one such example.


Subsequently, India and Israel added the joint
development of new missiles to their defense

relationship. The Indian Navy and Israel are developing
a further improved version known as the Barak NG
(Next Generation). This is the Barak 8 in Israel. This
missile will arm both Israeli and Indian warships. All
told, the Indian Navy could purchase 20 Barak SAM
systems and 600 to 1,000 missiles. Development of the
Barak 8 is complete and production now under way.



Building on the Barak 8, India and Israel initiated a new
joint effort known as the Barak MR (Medium-Range).
The Barak MR provides for the air defense needs of the
Indian Air Force, despite an order for the Akash SAM.
This program holds immense production potential. The Indian Air Force could outfit nine to 12 air defense
squadrons with the Barak MR. These systems will

replace older SA-3 Goa SAMs. However, the IAF
operates some 30 Goa-equipped squadrons, so the
potential for additional orders is good. The fielding date
for the Barak MR had been 2013, but delays are pushing
the date towards 2017.


Indian orders will help to maintain Rafael missile
production lines, but are unlikely to propel Israel to the
top of the surface-to-air missile market. For now, this
market will remain dominated by MBDA and Raytheon.

Jake Lor said...

NEW MEDIUM RANGE SAM:

USA:
SL-AMRAAM/HUMRAAM ($2.6 million) or AN/TWQ-1 Avenger ($12.1 million).

RUSSIAN:
Tor M2E ($25 million) and Pantsyr-S1 ($15 million).

FRANCE:
Crotale NG ($8.8 million)

Mr. Ra said...

So the RFI is justified if Barak JV for MR-SAM emerges as a strong contender.

Anonymous said...

@Prasun : why seeking info about Barak 2/8 since it is currently jointly developed ? The system must be well known by IAF. Frankly I don't get the rationale of this RFI.

You also mentioned Maitri and Mirage upgrade : why are they be in trouble ? I understood Mirage upgrade nego went to final stage some months ago. If it goes nowhere, what is the alternative ? Thanks for your views.

Ravi Khanna said...

Good For India!!!!

Anonymous said...

worst for india!!! a long ago west looted India directly, now they are looting it indirectly. There were dalals in those old times and there are dalals today. The worst part is some of them are in the Indian armed forces.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@11.12PM: In response to your first query, a JV in R & D is not the same as a procurement exercise. That's why, even though the DRDO is developing a BMD system, the MoD is keeping its doors open to other alternatives like Raytheon's Patriot PAC-3. In the Barak-2/8's case, firm orders have to date been placed for only two types of systems: the naval shipborne MR-SAM, and the land-based LR-SAM for the IAF. Before such orders were placed, the Navy and IAF had issued similar RFIs for which MBDA had responded with the Aster 15/30 combination. Both the Army and IAF are now seeking information on new-generation MR-SAMs, starting with the IAF. The Army too will soon follow with its own RFI. You can get more info on this at: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/04/hardened-air-cover-with-mr-sams-lr-sams.html

The Maitri R & D JV as of now is only a paper project, since there has been a belated but welcome realisation within the MoD and DRDO that developing a SR-SAM variant of the Astra BVRAAM is a far better and realistic option. As for the Mirage 2000H/TH upgrade programme, both the MoD and IAF HQ have finally decided to call the French bluff (in terms of charging an exorbitant amount of money) and it now appears increasingly likely that the Dassault Aviation/THALES combine will be dumped in favour of an upgrade to be jointly undertaken by HAL and Israel Aerospace Industries. HAL has after all done such work before with the Jaguar IS/IM and more recently with the Sea Harriers. Upgrading the Mirage 2000H/TH should not therefore pose a formidable challenge at all.

Anonymous said...

Putting together what Prasun and Bulusu have stated, there appears to an effort to regularise the arrangement with Israel for Barak - MR.

No matter what, there is a lot the defense establishment has to answer for in times to come. What will definitely suffer is the Indian defense preparedness.

Urgency does not justify half baked initiatives. Focused efforts, in a proper manner only will give longstanding results.

Anonymous said...

kuch bhi karo per pla ko roko

mathi man said...

A counrty which a Long range SAM operational ( Akash - told to be the best in its class), and successfully conducted an Missile defence shield test, developing a Medium range SAM should not be very difficult.

This RFI if converted to an order is the last minute scam frenzy by IAF bosses before the Lokpal bill comes into effect.

IAF was always the cheapest ofthe three and they continue maintaining their tradition of scams.

Indranil said...

@Prasun K Sengupta
Why is the army looking for a MR SAM? My friend in the army had once said that the army's responsibility is only SR air defence (<25 km). The air force takes care of MR and LR air defence.

Anonymous said...

This all-Israeli strategy (missiles, upgrades, ...), if true, is strange, to say the least

Mr. Ra said...

This may be related:

http://knol.google.com/k/naval-barak-8-barak-2-lr-sam-mr-sam#

Anonymous said...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13081691

THEY ARE GROUNDED.

Sudeep said...

All active Sams are useless in this new age of warfare, where the SAM will have to bring down cheap Cruise missiles and GPS guided glide bombs.

Only a command guided missile like Akash, that can be produced cheaply in numbers is suitable for solving this cheap, overwhelming attack that can be brought to bear by advanced powers.

Command guided has inherent range limitations, but perhaps these can be overcome by relays and handovers. Now that Akash MKII is pushing the limits of simple command guided missiles, the Akash group should work on distributed/networked/relay based long range command guided missiles.

Anonymous said...

HI prasun,
When are u coming back to trishul?
What abt wickileaks cables abt india looking 4 US jv on missile defence?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To mathi man: Are yaar, why are you labelling the Akash as a long-range SAM? Everyone knows that its Mk1 variant has a 25km range and its Mk2 variant will have a 37km-range. E-SHORADS like those of the German VL-IRIS family and China's LY-80E have already attained the 35km-range. The Akash Mk1/2 variants also fall into the E-SHORADS category. And lastly, RFIs are never converted into orders or contracts, RFPs are. So why are you connecting the RFI to the Lokpal Bill without any basis?

lspk said...

shiv when are u gonna post the report about j20?

Anonymous said...

@ Mathi Man

"A counrty which a Long range SAM operational ( Akash - told to be the best in its class), and successfully conducted an Missile defence shield test, developing a Medium range SAM should not be very difficult."

Absolutely. If the Akash 'best in its class' and missile shield are fully operational, what you say is true. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Time after time after time, DRDO fails to deliver on time and specifications. However, through some judicious reportage and leaks, its PR is outstanding. Hence the notion that the SAM / ABM envelope is completely covered by DRDO, but yet the IAF is trying to go outside.

You want the real scam, ask for the timeline vs cost overruns for all DRDO projects. The common excuse is 'this is difficult, we are doing it independently'. Thats no excuse for poor programme management and outright lies for the sake of continued funding and promotions.

Take our beloved LCA. After all the hype of Jan 2011, the IOC is still nowhere in sight. Forget the SP series ac for the IAF, not even LSP7 / 8 are ready. Timelines have been revised som many times, nobody is able to keep track. That is the mismangement that has to be addressed.

Yes, the IAF are not saints, but they have a job to do, and they need to be resourced to do it. Empty promises alone cannot replace the long obsolete SAM3 / SAM8 stocks. If the IAF needs credible air defence, and DRDO / BEL /ADA cannot deliver, they have no choice but to look elsewhere.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Indranil: In that case, may I humbly suggest that you ask your 'friend in the army' the following:
1) Why is it that the Indian Army's Corps of Air Defence Artillery (CADA) acquired the 2K12 Kub/Kvadrat in the early 1980s and whether this system is deployed as an SR-SAM or MR-SAM?
2) Why did the CADA induct into service SHORADS like the OSA-AK and ZRK-BD/9K35 Strela-10M if the 2K12 Kub/Kvadrat was meant to provide SR air defence?
3) What is the deployment footprint (in terms of land volume) of a standard Indian Army Strike Corps and which armed service is tasked with providing land-mobile air defence artillery cover for such Strike Corps--Army's CADA or the IAF?
4) Is it true that the IAF takes care of MR and LR air defence only of static vulnerable areas and vulnerable points?
To Anon@1.29AM: Try this: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/

Indranil said...

Prasun:
Thanks for ur inputs.
My "friend in the army" pointed out that all Kub-Kvardat system has a max operational range of 24Km.

Bulusu said...

Akash is just to complement the MR-SAM.
Drdo knows the importance of the MR-SAM,i.e it proposes the JV with Israel to reduce the Dev time.The BARAK 8 naval version is a success story and going to be integrated in Indian ships.
However we don't have exact info on land version MR-SAM development which leading to this discussion.I believe DRDO facing tough competition and pressure to absorb the technologies and delivery with army modernization program.It the time for DRDO to introspect and find the alternatives to improve the productivity.BTW i too had a little bit work experience in army SDD, it was pathetic in way they change the specs.

Anonymous said...

J20 is deep penentration bomber take a look at the picture it has a elongated body so it can carry extra fuel also the wings and the nicas sujest it is not thrust vectoring at the moment

lspk said...

shiv when are u gonna post the report about j20?

Shubham said...

@Shiv/Prasun: any updated info on the long range AWACS killer missile Novator k-100 that India is supposed to be co-developing with Russia? whats the status on that? thanks..

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Indranil: What one ought to bear in mind is that it is not the range of SAMs like the 2K12 Kub/Kvadrat (in the Army's case) or S-125 Pechora (in the IAF's case) that determine their status as MR-SAMs, but their engagement envelopes (which dictate their deployment patterns), and in case of the 2K12 Kub/Kvadrat, based on the battlefield frontage's airspace to be secured. The deployment pattern in turn is shaped, for instance, by the area of operations' footprint of a standard Indian Army Strike Corps or an Armoured Division. That is why the 25km-range Akash Mk1, when it enters service with the Army, will be 'deployed' as MR-SAM. The same will hold true when the 37km-range Akash Mk2 enters service, and the same will continue to hold true when the 70km-range Barak-2/8 enters service as well.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Bulusu: The Akash's missile round can best be described as being a 're-engineered' 3-9M336 missile, just as the Trishul SHORADS' missile was a re-engineered version of the 9M33M3 missile associated with the 9K33 OSA-AK SHORADS. The Barak-2/8 on the other hand, is a brand-new system being developed from scratch. The land-launched version of Barak-2/6 will be road-mobile as well being capable of cross-country mobility. An illustration of this variant can be found at: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/04/hardened-air-cover-with-mr-sams-lr-sams.html

To Shubham: The basic Novator K-100 has already been developed by Russia. However, in terms of destroying any AEW & C platform, it is preferable to destroy such platforms on the ground, instead of targetting them while they are airborne. The other option is to invest in dedicated EW jamming aircraft to not only jam the AEW & C platform's radar, but also the two-way data-links.

Shubham said...

@ prasun: thanks 4 the info again. :) why i was interested in knowing more about this novator missile was because as you know our neighbourhood is increasingly becoming or will become soon a very active AWACS rich environment with both Pakistan and China making investments in these programs. In order to maintain air superiority or fighting a two front war as some say,such a long range AA missile would definitely come in handy to ensure air superiority. While it has been reported that possibly the SU-30 MKI will be the possible carrier of such a K-100 Awacs killer missile if at all it sees the light of the day in India. This i thought would be another important step in ensuring the beefing up of long neglected air defence security of the nation in addition to the various SAM JVs we have got going as listed by everyone here..Thanks. Thoughts?