Wednesday, June 08, 2011

IAF Mirage 2000 Upgrade Slowed By Weapons


It has emerged that India's $2.4-billion proposal to upgrade 51 IAF Dassault Mirage 2000H/TH fighters -- widely expected to be cleared by the government's apex approval body this month -- hasn't come up because the attached contract for weapons/armaments with MBDA hasn't been cleared yet by India's Ministry of Finance. India's apex Cabinet Committee on Security will not consider the primary upgrade contract separate from the constituent weapon contract, obviously. It is not clear at this stage if the armament contract remains with the Ministry of Finance on account of normal procedural delays or more specific price concerns. Will update this post.

26 comments :

Anonymous said...

this can only happen in india. approve the upgrade, but sit on the weapons. well done, GOI. truly inspired.

Adarsh said...

I for one would never agree to upgrade them at the price quoted, Just keep them on till 2020 in present condition, Increase the MMRCA to from 200 to 300.

Anonymous said...

BBC:China confirms aircraft carrier,

Shiv g your take needed on this.

fighterclass said...

shiv, any update on the bhim ?

tako nada said...

we ne3ed all french missile to conquer the PLA-AF.

Anonymous said...

This entire upgradation of vintage jets will cost more or equal to purchasing new jets. I fail to understand why MOD and IAF is following this "pound foolish penny wise" approach? Why don't they swap our Mirage2000s with Rafale? It will cost more or less the same and we will be getting brand new engines and airframes instead of continuing with decades old engines and airframes which are nearing the end of their service life.

Shubham said...

We should definitely go for a swap agreement of our Mirage 2000s with the Rafales. It is being extremely penny wise pound foolish, as many others have pointed out. If that can't be "managed" maybe we can try 2 sell our Mirages to willing buyers, while using the proceeds to invest in additional Rafales. I think spending so much money just for the modern avionics and weapons suits is not feasible in the long run. Besides, by opting for additional Rafales will only help India in the context of the impending MMRCA selection. Would also help in reducing albeit to a minimal extent the infrastrusture used at present for maintaining the Mirage fleet, and get the inventories ready to cater to the Rafales in increased numbers going forward. This is IF the Rafales are selected ahead of EF, or are selected alongwith the EF, as the case maybe, which we may know by the end of this year. Maybe the Government wants to wait it out till then.

Anonymous said...

i've said this many times..

why on earth are we paying close to 40 million per plane for the upgrade?...its grossly expensive...

i am assuming weapons are not covered in this cost..shiv pls. pls. get to the bottom of this..i smell a very big rat....

btw,

on a more positive note..good to see a IAF mirage 2000 with missiles...most IAF pics show unarmed aircraft...btw, are the 'black nosed' Super-530Ds dummy/mock-up/training ordnance?...how, if at all, are they different from the 'white nosed' ones?..just the color eh?

p.s never seen an IAF mirage 2000 with 6 Super-530Ds...good pic...:)

-vishal

Anonymous said...

RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s - Three-nil, apparently. Brit flyboys 'shocked'

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/eurofighter_beaten_by_f16/

Anonymous said...

On one occasion – in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

PAF Viper pilot talks about an encounter with Typhoons (same as MMRCA downselect).

http://www.paffalcons.com/specials/paf-viper-pilot.php

Anonymous said...

Minister will take another 10 years to decide on this issue. lol

Looping said...

You should bear in mind that, this upgrade if for very old mirage which will by equiped with very high standards of thechnology (keep it as relative to 4th generation plane^ ^) (google on Mirage 2000-9). They change nearly every thing except the engine and fuselage.

Morover, i don't know if india has Cigogne (Stork) as mascotte for one of its squardon but france have and it is called 1/5éme Cigogne.

Heberian said...

Aon @ 12:22 am -

Take the story with heaps of salt, just like that other story of a PAF pilot who shot down a bunch of IAF planes in under 2 minutes or some such ridiculous time, in one of the many wars that Pakistan lost.. And think about the time the PAF insinuated it was unable to scramble on time and locate a few helicopters and F18s and F18 Growlers that very recently visited Abbottabad...

As for the RAF pilots, you would be really dense to believe that they dont know close quarters tactics and only know BVR tactics.

This is another case of the Pak military claiming that one Pak soldier = 10 Indian soldiers!.. and by extension, PAF pilots are all Marverick or Iceman type pilots.

And please don't worry about our down select :) the planes suit us, and the IAF is quite proficient in both BVR and close engagement tactics.

Anonymous said...

Vishal @ 10.37pm

The pictured Mirage-2000 is not Indian, rather French (look at the roundel). The missile with the black/blunt nose is the MICA-IR missile which uses an IR seeker while the four ones using the sharper nose are the MICA-EM variant using the active radar seeker. The six-missile configuration is a standard French air defense patrol configuration.

Anonymous said...

Try to find a brand new aircraft of the class of Mirage 2000-5/9 on the market for 40 M$ (don't forget to add also all the side aspects, which are already in place for Mirage: logistic, training, ...). In the 80's for sure but not now. Don't forget that HAL is producing Su-30 MKI at roughly 100 M$ a piece. Nobody knows where MMRCA leads us, this upgrade makes sense and will provide top-class MICA missiles to IAF, good choice. Israel might be an cheaper alternative but given their technical legacy on upgrading Sea Harrier, cheap may become very painful.

RAVI said...

Guys plz leave it to the people who sit and decide... there are many things which involve in upgrade...as many of them are not aware that the price of upgrade is more than price of new aircraft...it is just not easy buying off the shelf new aircraft...there needs to be hell of lot of investment in infrastructure, life cycle cost, training, attached armaments, data link receivers and many more...with the present upgrade border secure mission can be done with just 2 mirages against current 6...so logically the upgrade Multiply's Current 51 mirages to 153...that is why people are bargaining hard out there...with upgraded configuration it will be very potent platform for SEAD, strike mission...easing work for Su 30mki...Where as mig 21s and 29s will look after interdiction and Mig-27 and jags for CAS job and Su 3omki for completely concentrating on PLAAF...

Anonymous said...

The french have justified the cost by saying that this is the cost of the new electronics, sensors and avionics.

They probably say that a Rafale without these avionics cost about $40million.

The cost seems very high for an upgrade on an aircraft that will only serve the IAF for two odd decades more.

One wonders if the LCA Mk-2s won't be equal to the upgraded Mirages. We can then have more LCAs in service. Or perhaps HAL and DRDO want to have a dekko at the equipment going into the upgrade.

Anonymous said...

A test Mirage 2000 with Rafale AESA radar & nose - Great picture and article:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/126031/**france-readies-rafale-upgrade-for-2012.html#

Anonymous said...

Aon @ 7:50 am

thxs for the clarification...

i got so excited and didnt see the details...:)

btw, hopefully after this upgrade such a sight in IAF colors will not be too far away...:)

-vishal

mathi ,man said...

The way the french are behaving for this Mirage upgrade and scorpene deals, it seems like it is easier to deal with euro consortium ie 4 nations than dealing with french. May be it is the other way of what the french minister said who just returned from india visit.

Why cant we try to upgrade mirage's ourselves. LOve for mirage needs to be controlled a bit within IAF and buying new planes is better than upgrading these.

Anonymous said...

@ Anons 11:28 PM & 12:22 AM: So what does that prove? Your PAF Falcons would be more than happy to accept that planes alone don't win wars, what also counts is the fulfillment of a mission requirement by a plane which is assigned to a particular mission. Going by your logic, will you admit that the tiny Gnat, which was such a bogeyman to your PAF's US supplied F-86 Sabres in 1971(unexpectedly so) and marked many Sabre kills mind you, was a better plane than F-86??? I doubt that you would admit that. Anyways, our aircraft have also conducted themselves very well and beyond the expectations of the foreign air forces like USAF, RAF, in various multinational exercises against the same Eurofighters, Rafales and above all against much modern F-16s than you possess. So what does that imply or is that a big accomplishment? I would argue and say no, coz the real test of a plane comes in actual combat, when the combination of man-machine takes over in a real life situation rather than simulated exercises or missions. So stop drooling like kids and hope that war never happens in the near future. To fight wars, you also got to rely on money and domestic resources- which are running very low in your country at the moment. Please shift your focus and give your people a good education. It will serve them better than suicide bomb vests. Thanks.

Mr. Ra said...

Upgrading is a faster track and proven method, so if otherwise justified it should be adopted to save the critical and crucial times.

Even if it ensures only for the next 20 years, remember those years are most important so as to decide the future of the whole Eon.

Heberian said...

Anon @ 6.48 p.m.

Spot on!! :)

Check cnn.com for old Mush's new opinion piece. The chaps who thump their chests about the Thunder and the FC 20 and all, they forget that they need to fix the madrassas first. Even China is getting wary of the suicidal lot.

Anonymous said...

The French are no better than the Romulans!

Anonymous said...

Instead of upgrading 51 Mirages for $ 2.4 billion which would have a limited life span (engines aren't being replaced)they should rather buy equal no. of Rafales. Though at a higher procurement price but they will be relevant even beyond 2040.

Chandan said...

@Anny...1.22 am..the exercise you are talking about...PAF F-16s were actually pitted against RAF Tornado's......No exercises between RAF Typhoon and PAF F-16s...you lahori madrssa educated porki !!!!