Tuesday, August 02, 2011

IAF Mirage Upgrade To Take 10 Years

India's Minister of Defence A.K. Antony today told Parliament that the $2.4-billion contract to upgrade 51 IAF Mirage 2000 fighters (signed on July 29) will take 10 years to complete. Which means, by July 2021.


46 comments :

Deepak Datta said...

This exactly what I posted few days back.

I analyised the reporting further. So France will upgrade 2 of our 52 Mirages in France WITHIN 40+ Months ( that is almost three and a half years), then 2 more Mirages would be upgraded at HAL by French Engineers with Indian Engineers in training, and THEN HAL would upgrade one Mirage per month after that. WOW! The remaining 48 would take almost 5 plus years to complete the project. That could be almost 2020, by which time these planes would be ready for retirement by 2027-30. 

At $46 Million upgrade price (Ouch! ), is it not wise to sell these 52 jets, just like Greece and UAE are trying to do and buy Rafales instead at $70 or $80 Million and have a cutting edge multi-role fighter for at least 40 additional years? For what we are going to be paying to upgrade these jets, we could even buy JAS 39 Grippen, a far superior MMRCA aircraft of 4+ generation, which could again last as 40 plus years, plus get complete TOT, which would help us with LCA and AMCA development. 

So here is the revised suggestion
- Sell the Mirage 2000H and TH models to the highest bidder with French ok or get them upgraded by Israel for 40% less price on a much expedited schedule.

- Buy 126-200 MMRCA fighters - Eurofighter or Rafale. Get full TOT guarantees. Give the project to one of the private players like Tatas. 

- Get 139 Jaguars upgraded to Darin Ii and III standard. Jaguar is our deep penetration strike aircraft with strategic weapon delivery capability.

- If Rafale is not selected for MMRCA, which is a very likely scenario, buy 40-50 Rafales in a dedicated role of delivering Strategic Weapons.

- Expedite the 69 Mig 29s upgraded to SMT standard.

- Aggressively work with US government to get F35 - Joint Strike Fighter(JSF). This is where our focus should be and indications are that they might be willing to entertain the request. Remember, besides F22-Raptor, which US currently would not sell to anyone, F35 is a stealth fighter with tremendous capabilities. In addition, India needs to build close strategicm ties with US to counter the Chinese Dragon and its proxy Pakistan. We need this fighter to be facing the eastern front, with the upcoming deployment of Chinese J20 fighter jet. I do know that India has signed an agreement with Russia for the PAK-FA Fifth Generation Fighter aircraft. 

However, Russian aircraft would never be able to matchup against US technology. Just name one war where the Russian jets have defeated American jets - Zero. Just in 1982, Israel flying F16 and F15 jets destroyed 86 frontline Soviet aircraft being flown by Syria in two days without a single loss of its own (wow!). Gulf war I & Ii, Kosovo operation, Libyan operations are all examples of superior US technologies. There was a time when US equipment was not available for obvious reasons. Now India should go for the best proven technologies. Pakistan's recent acquisition of F16 C/D Block 52+ aircraft with 500 potent BVR  AIM120C-5 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, in conjunction with Saab Erieye AWACs makes the skies more complicated. Block 52+ or older F16 are flown by US today.

Anonymous said...

must be joking

Deepak Datta said...

However, based on past history of upgrades by HAL, Mirage upgrade would not be completed until at least 12-13 years from now which is a shame. Our private industry should be roped in to do the upgrades or even the new MMRCA project, Tatas, Mahindras, L&T and other suitable candidates are there. Our security establishment can maintain the security of these plants.

The sooner we get the government out of running businesses, and free them up for governing the nation, the better for the whole nation. In every single case the world over, private enterprises have outperformed, the public  (government) enterprises in efficiency, quality and goal management. The babus would fight this tooth and nail, because this would amount to blocking their grease monies. But this is what needs to be done to make our defence industry world class. US and other Western governments provide research funds to private companies, and they in turn get to negotiate the final cost on a cost plus basis. Private entrepreneurs have a vested interests in timely completion of the projects, because that is how they would get paid, including any incentives and or penalties for early completion and or delays respectively.

UAE is actively seeking a buyer for its 60 Mirage 2000-9 which is more advanced than the Mirage 2000-5 Mark II, which India has signed for and would complete the project in ten years.

Anonymous said...

I want to die in shame and inferiority.

Makapaka said...

I suppose this will take 10 years because this is what the Indian Air Force requested in order to keep enough M2000 in service on a permanent basis. Don't forget they are quite useful and when they are being upgraded in the factory, they are not flying! That's a choice in order to keep appropriate capabilities in the sky.

Deepak Datta said...

WTF? Indian government has known for a long time regarding UAE's intention to sell their 60 Mirage 2000-9, a more modern and capable version than the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2 that India is upgrading to. Why wait for 10 years for complete project when you could buy those planes today. Furthermore, Greece is also willing to sell 40 of their Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2, exactly what India wants.

Why CAG is not stopping this before it happens? India can buy these pplanes ASAP.

CWG, 2G, Mirage upgrade, Pilatus 7 trainer purchase......

Anonymous said...

If this did not concern the security of our country. I would have called this a comedy.It's amazing we seem to have no sense of urgency!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

While US tech in aircraft is acknowledged,one also has to place the US and Israeli conflicts in context.It is not US aircraft that are simply doing the winning,but the entire US battle field management behind it.The dominance of US in Command control, Electronic warfare, surveillance and intelligence capabilities is overwhelming.It is this which really gives the edge to US fighters.The same is the case with isreali and arabs. Whenever there has been a parity in technology or where US electronic dominance was not that developed things have been different. In the Vietnam war, many many US aircraft were shot down by the North Vietnamese Airforce.In the India Pakistan context,mere possession of american aircraft by the Pakistanis will not that big a tilting factor since all assets of Pakistan are more than matched,if not exceeded by India.

sanu said...

WTH man? 2021 me ye aircraft baba adam ke zamane ka lagega! Gud luck iaf, tum loga ka kuch ni ho sakta....

Anonymous said...

Wake up!! wake up!!!!M2K!!! M2K!!!

Anonymous said...

lazy lazy.....lazy in the morning ,lazy in the noontime. lazy lazy in the sun goes down.

Very good , doing this much favour to our neighbours - pak/chinks, babus ka jaiho.

may be world can realise 6th gen jets , but india will finish it 4 th gen upgrades in 2021 .such a good work , no one can touch us , we itself destroy ourself.

Anonymous said...

I am a retired officer we must not be ungrateful to Russians their equipment is not bad and we have used them for years and where ever we stand today in any military sphere is because of their support and these people like us Indians they have a large role be it from Cryogenic engines, tanks, air crafts, missiles nuclear submarines and what have you and above all strategic support we may buy from here and their but must buy MIG 35 they are looking after our back

Shubham said...

@ Deepak: Mig 21s famously bested F104 starfighters sabres in the 1971 war. please check out the details below from IAF records:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21#Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971

As per IAF Records, the records in favour of Mig 21s was 8 kills, 1 damaged, 3 losses.

Thanks

Mr. Ra said...

So this sleeping Giant is going to wake up roaring once the war is all over and then again it will go in to the hibernation of retirement.

I now very much doubt this agreement provided some utterly benevolent potential is not hidden therein.

Anonymous said...

This is a SCAM for sure! Please can any one look into this unless upgrade?

I hope Anna ji knows about this scan or at least lokayukta. Please any one stop this scam.

Anonymous said...

Instead of upgrading the Mirages which could take a decade they should split the contract between two aircraft one being the rafale or the typhoon and go for the Gripen in some numbers since the LCA mark 2 is still some years away.Gripen would be an appropriate choice if the twin engined fighters turn out to be over the budget after the commercial bids are opened for the MMRCA contract.

Mohit said...

This is classic ! Very much what we usually expect from our government.

Mr. Ra said...

Now after the Mirage upgrade deal, if Rafale is cheaper than the EFT, then Rafale should be purchased in only 126 Nos and nothing more. Apart from many other factors, Rafale at least suits better in the matters of logistics.

The process of purchasing F-35 may be like playing chess against Vishwanathan Anand, wherein we know the end result even before the first move.

The logic of succeeding in the air operations against the fourth world countries like Libya, Iraq, Afghan, Serbia or at occasions even with Vietnam does not justify much except providing some practical testing and experiences.

Please see, in 1960 India liberated Goa from Portugal in festival mode against the wishes of the first world and within two years it got uprooted in retaliations at Northern and NE fronts as a part of a combination of clever moves with Red Drgon.

Mr. Ra said...

Wherever Israel has defeated Arabs or Syria in the air wars with American planes, it was because it was Israel and not Pakistan. Israel is known to have done many modifications on those planes without apparent (?) knowledge of the US. Owing to such abilities and tact, Israel was not allowed to proceed with the Lavi project, otherwise the F-16 would have got turned in to an endangered species.

B M said...

How much is the cut Mr Saint Antony, I dont see any other reason for this upgrade. Or is it that they have already decided on the Eurofighter????

Anonymous said...

I do not think this is per se for the upgrade ., this deal might involve a hidden component for some strategic system .

Anonymous said...

Most of the upgrade work will be done in India, so maybe it is part of the learning process.

Anonymous said...

@Deepak

Never undermine the Russian Aircrafts. It is only the equipment that matters, it also matters to have a good pilot. In almost all examples you might quote, Russian aircrafts were flown by expert pilots compared to those flew US aircrafts.

Anonymous said...

This is the result of Govt of India reposing fath on a white elephant called HAL and DRDO...

With their constant and unending failures, they have let the Country of 100 billions down..

They have had the cream of the Defence budget so far and just farted around in their arrogance being simply an agency of IAS bosses meant to make money and more money...

Raju must hang his dead in shame as he can never resign being himself so arrogant. Undoubtedly a Scam or kharch for impending election ??

Ashish Kenkare said...

Is India the most stupid nation on Earth? Upgrading will take 10 yrs? But our 126 MMRCA induction will be over by then? WTF?!

Anonymous said...

LOL...this is just laughable...

Ravi Khanna said...

@shiv: why was mirage upgrade deal needed when we are buying Omni role fighters???

10years for upgrade : i think mr. anthony was sleeping when the deal was negotiated.. ha ha..

it was better if we could give place an order between two vendors...

Mr. Ra said...

Another positive thing with this Mirage upgrade is that it almost never reduces the numerical strength of our Mirages.

Who knows after their retirement they may be upgraded in to stealth Mirages. What a combination to be - Illusive Mirages and that too stealth... Lol

Anonymous said...

I hear PAk will upgrade all (46) their f-16 blk 15 to blk-52+ in 3.5 years....why is HAL going to take so long? The other question is how many of these will be flying in 10 yrs time? IAF;'s record on accidents is not that great.

Anonymous said...

may be 10 years from now they will start a new upgrade program for the mirages to transform them into f22s? who knows. assholes are bleeding the defence budget dry.

BigLulli said...

@Deepak Datta

Pass me the weed buddy!

Nikita said...

@anon2.39: 3 M2000 lost in more than 20 years is a very good figure compared to MiG and Su series !

Anonymous said...

Damn! HAL's efficiency is getting worse every year!!

Anonymous said...

Damn! HAL's efficiency is getting worse every year!!

Deepak Datta said...

@ BigLulli 9:17AM

Instead of the weed, I suggest that you suck on your name. BUDDY!

Som said...

With this amount of money India could go for a decent sized fleet of hunter-killer UAVs !

Anonymous said...

@Anon 5:45 PM

i have high doubt that Anna is also a cangress plant like ramdev, which cangress bought at the right time to diverge attention from people to hide some big scam or to do some ill interests in lokpal bill.

Can we get result of this addition?.
Cangress+Anna+Ramdev =....?, fool people

Anonymous said...

After 10 years, india will be the only nation on earth that holds the largest quantity of obsolete waste and may get an award for "Top obsolete weapon state" or "Largest junkyard for weapons"

PD said...

It doesnt even take a decade to supply 51 new sparkling new fighters or a new air carrier.. Then why the hell such kinda deal? And for $2.4 Million ? Wat kinda grass is MOD/IAF smoking ?

thelazyreader said...

People say AK Antony is the enemy of Communist. But in truth he is only the enemy of Communist PARTY. He himself is a hardcore Communist in idealogy, as is clear from his shining red bald head.

This crook cares more about giving job security to the defence PSU monopoly than getting up-to-date equipment for our armed forces. That's why HAL gets the upgrade contract even though with all their other projects it will take them 10 years to do it. Not Tata, not Mahindra, not L & T, but 'India's sole(monopoly)' aircraft maker HAL!

Sudheendra Singh said...

If this upgrade cost is really that expensive for technology transfer and various other stuff, it could well be possible that it was a strategy of Dassault to bid for MMRCA more competitively. What you compromise in MMRCA, make up for it in Mirage Upgrade. Perhaps even IAF is also aware of it??

Deepak Datta said...

Dr. Manmohan Singh, you claim that that you did not know when the alleged scams were happening. I believe you. However, there is a scam in the making related to the upgrade of the Mirage 2000 upgrade.

Please do not say later that we did not bring it to your attention.

Why would India not buy Mirage 2000-9 jets available TODAY, instead of waiting 10 years to finish the upgrade to a still lower standard to Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2.

Fishy, Fishy Mr. Prime Minister. I would say sell our Mirage 2000, buy UAE Mirage-9s and Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2 from Greece.

Anonymous said...

WHAT A LAUGH!!!
BLOODY B**T***S.

Makapaka said...

@Deepak, if you have any proof of a scam, go immediately to CVC, they will be happy to know

Gautam said...

When the CVC's chiefs are appointed by the govt and the last CVC was a Congress lackey, how will he help?

And Manmohan doesn't know about scams? Keep deluding yourself. For him party and coalition politics always outweigh the nation: Otherwise he'd be kicked to the roadside and replaced by Madam Sonia.

Anonymous said...

Deepak is just a troll, he has no proofs.