Wednesday, November 30, 2011

Gripen Beats Rafale & Typhoon For Swiss Deal


Big news. A Swiss newspaper Tagesanzeiger has reported that Switzerland has chosen the Saab Gripen as its next fighter, beating the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon in a three-year battle to replace its Northrop F-5s -- one of the most keenly anticipated decisions in recent European aerospace contracting. As is thunderingly obvious, the Gripen has won out over the two fighters currently in contention for India's huge M-MRCA contract. The Gripen was eliminated from the Indian competition in April this year. The Switzerland win is a crucial victory for Saab, and Switzerland will be the sixth air force in the world to operate the Gripen after Sweden, Czech Republic, South Africa, Hungary and Thailand (the UK Empire Test Pilot School also operates the Gripen).

Reports suggest that the Gripen was chosen because it was identified as the most cost-effective choice given Switzerland's severe budget constraints. Gripen's win is only another "no" to Dassault's Rafale, which some reports suggest was adjudged the best performer in field evaluations; the Typhoon competed only towards the end.

Official word from Saab: "The Swiss type-selection confirms that Saab is a market-leader in the defence and security industry and that Gripen is a world-class fighter system that provides the best value for money”, says HÃ¥kan Buskhe, President and CEO Saab.

Photo: Shiv Aroor in a Gripen-D / by Stefan Kalm (Saab)

47 comments :

Makapaka said...

Gripen won because it is cheaper - single engine vs twin. Swiss media report that Rafale was the favorite of Swiss pilots but Switzerland faces no military threat, so price was the key, not operational capabilities.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely stunning! This is a BIG, BIG, BIG signal to the Indian Air Force to get two things straight: One, they are choosing lemons; second, air forces of the future are about buying capability, NOT toys for the boys. Oh yeah, and for all those EF and Rafale apologists, werent they selling cheaper in Austria so far?

f1sayyed said...

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DJ said...

Cancel MMRCA contest and get Gripen or F-16. There is no way India can afford $100 mil per unit aircraft.

Jith said...

L1 got the contract, it seems
thats the only way Gripen could have outplayed others

Sameer said...

They just needed a plane. All of them are gonna retire without firing/dropping a missile/bomb in real battle.

@Anon 10:38
so now blithering idiots ranting on blogs are gonna teach IAF what is lemon and what is fighter jet!! time to get your senses right moron. Look up Switzerland in some map and observe that instead of barbaric fagots and shrewd rogues, they have France to their west and Germany to the north.

Rahul said...

There is a big difference between IAF and Luftwaffe (SAF) and their requirements and that is evident from their individual decisions in this regard.

DJ said...

Btw, Switzerland requires 100% offset for any defense deal. All three offered that but Gripen beat other two on being the most cost effective on purchase and 30-yr life cycle cost.
It was not the most technologically advanced plane.
Source aviation week

Chris said...

Although money might have been one reason to go for the Gripen, I'm sure the Swiss focused mainly on the planes' capability. Once again they prove their neutrality, otherwise they would have gone for the Typhoon, due to their close ties to Germany. Fortunately they were smart enough to learn from Austria's mistakes and noticed how the Austrians have been screwed over by the EF Consortium.

It's a shame and quite a surprise that only those two quite similar planes are left in the MMRCA. Still, the Rafale will be a bit cheaper, is definitely more multirole and most of all

WHO BVELIEVES THE BRITISH WILL ALLOW A FULL TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER??

Anonymous said...

SU-30MKI + FGFA + .... twin engined Typhoon/Rafale, makes sense, if you have the coffins of the Saudis et al. IAF really should go for quality in quantity, there is no beating large numbers, the amount of enemy missiles is only so great. As RAND and other smart analysts already have confirmed. Fanboys always want the newest and most expensive machines, but eventually reality kicks in. There is no such thing as a free lunch...

Anonymous said...

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/11/switzerland-armasuisewiss-ranked-rafale.html

Basler Zeitung has published the scores for 2 main mission types (see above) : Air defense and Ground attack mission. The green scores refers to the 2008 evalaluation while the red scores refers to the final 2009 evaluation including 2015 improvements.

* The Rafale is ranked first with 7.28 and 7.41 points,
* The Eurofighter second with 6.49 and 6.54 points,
* The Gripen is third with 5.68 and 5.62 points. Therefore it does not manage to pass the threshold of 6 points.


Various quotes from the report :

"Rafale and Eurofighter showed generally better performance than the F/A-18, Gripen worse"

"The performance of the Gripen in air-air engagements as well as attack missions was insufficient"


"The most limiting factors of the Gripen design were the operating time, the flight performance and the maximum weapon load"

"The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications"

So the report is quite clear regarding the capabilities of the 3 aircrafts:
1- The Rafale is the best technical performer and thus recommended as the Tiger replacement.
2- The Rafale was ranked above the Eurofighter in both Air defense and ground attack missions.
3- The Gripen has serious weaknesses and is considered as a step back compared to the F/A-18 operated by the Swiss Air Force.

Kartik said...

To the idiot who said that the IAF is choosing lemons- the fact of the matter is that both the Typhoon and Rafale are too costly and offer performance benefits that are NOT REQUIRED by the Swiss. And cost was considered to be the biggest parameter by the Swiss, even though the Gripen was the last in terms of performance amongst the 3.

Boeing was smart at the beginning by pulling out of the Swiss competition citing that the Super Hornet itself was far too much capability for the Swiss requirements, that even the Gripen C/D could meet.

Nevertheless, this is good news for Saab and the Gripen NG.

Mr. Ra said...

Swiss have only their banks to be defended, so Gripen may be perfect for them as it is cheapest. For India Rafale and EFT are more useful in that order.

Anonymous said...

We must have fielded LCA. It must have won.

LV Cabbie said...

Way back in the late 1970's, I was stationed at the American Embassy in Vienna and clearly remember many discussions about doing a similar co-production deal for the F-5 with Austria.
I'm amazed that the Swiss are still flying an aircraft many Pentagon "experts" felt was not worth putting into service.
There was another American aircraft in the running but I cannot, at this time, remember what it was.

Anonymous said...

Swiss qualitative requirements are quite different from IAF needs since geography, history and future challenges are ... totally different. Switzerland basically needed a basic air control plane and Gripen may be good value for money for this basic mission (as it would have been fine for Austria too, less expensive than EF). No chance Swiss jets ever drop a single bomb on anybody's face. Does IAF have the same needs ? Certainly not. IAF did not shortlist "lemons" but the best planes from an operational point of view, based on its own assessment.

Anonymous said...

For morons Kartik and Sameer. Here is why they are lemons. One, take the time out and read the UK Auditor General and UK House of Commons Reports on the Eurofighter. It has been officially designated Lemon by the UK Government. On the Rafale, read what the UAE had to say at the Dubai air show, read the French Government's Annual Report 2004/5/6. Simple story: India sent out the driver to buy the car, the Swiss sent out the banker. Forget Gripen, build the Tejas. And you two, stop pissing in the wind about who is whose neighbour on which map. Check your history. Switzerland hasnt gone to war with either Germany or French.

Anonymous said...

Makapaka, you are dead wrong. Read Swedish history and you will understand how swedes perceive threats and why the are so independent? The cost of Grippen is dramatically lower because of the way the Swedish aerospace industry is configured and run. This is acknowleged by other aerospace manufactures.

lastly not paid agent of grippen. Just that it is most underated, overperforming aircraft in its class.

Hari said...

Please dont compare our security scenario to theirs. Swiss is the safest place in the world. Even during world war 2 not even a single bomb was dropped here. The reason is all the rich and mighty have their wealth stacked up here. But our condition is different, our neighbors are ready to eat us alive when they get a chance.

Anonymous said...

@
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/11/switzerland-armasuisewiss-ranked-rafale.html

It was the C/D version that were evaluated with none of the new tech. And u can't link a evaluation from a Rafale fan site and think that is any truth in it....
Get independent source

Anonymous said...

Comparing Indian and Swiss defence requirement is a plain nonsense.

So far as cost is concerned, the best is do without an air-force. If one wants to have them, let them be capable of delivering the expectation. One does not need philosophies to understand this !

Makapaka said...

@Anon9.55: please read carefully what I wrote, I mentioned Swiss requirements, not Swedish :) Cost of Gripen is lower for many reasons but first of all because of physics: light aircraft, single engine. For the very same reason, Mirage 2000 are less expensive than Rafale, but also less capable (less "omnirole" as would say Rafale fans). Depends on what your Air Force needs. Light/cheap or heavy/expensive.

Anonymous said...

Lol, a lot of historians here!

@Anon10.38: so they did not evaluate the plane that they will buy? "New techs" are going to be integrated (when?) without having been evaluated? Rather strange.

Tirenga said...

@Anon 10.38, I think the abstract of the evaluation report was published by a Swiss newspaper. It is indeed highlighted by Rafale people for obvious reasons but that does not mean that the info is fake. No offence to say that Gripen is less capable, it is also less expensive.

annonymous said...

come one guys ... lets not get twisted in a knot over here .... open your eyes ....

LCA is a failure !!!!!!

Gripen will come to India too ... wait and watch !!!

Vader said...

One more loss to the omniloser fighter made by Dassault.

Now that Rafale had definitelly lost in EAU and Switzerland, we can ask: will be India the only customer of Rafale in the whole world?

By the way, someone may tell Dassault and it´s fanboys that the cry is free.

Best regards.

http://vaderbrasil.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

swiss may never use these fighters in anger, the best thay might use them escorting visiting US president or some other important dignatory. Gripen is more than capable for it.

Obiwan said...

Vader, there is already one customer of Rafale and this customer knows how to make the best use of the tool: French Air Force + French Navy. Airplanes has never been designed for export but first of all for the needs of national customers, something you may have lost in the process of your basic and pathetic Rafale-bashing campaign. Let India select what it wants and all the best to Brazil for your own choice (which may still be Rafale, no ?)

Sameer said...

@Anonymous 8:58 AM

I was framing the arguments to your response as I went through it. But when I reached the last line, I could smell the intelligence I was dealing with. It would be stupid to get into the argument. I quit, you win!

Anonymous said...

India and Brazil seem to be the only countries where Rafale stands a chance. Even UAE which was earlier slated to buy the French fighter may settle for some more F-16Block 60s or the Eurofighters. Switzerland being a landlocked small nation of central Europe doesnt need these heavy jets. The Gripen seems to be ideal for them.

Anonymous said...

our air force knows whats best for them and they are doing good with MMRCA there's no need sack whole deal since swiss air force favored gripen. well our pilots are looking for more potent platforms now, rather than settlement for less capable platform in the concern of price.

Anonymous said...

Bhailok ,

Why get nasty eh ?

Gripen appears to be a great point defense fighter , if nothing more . It can match the f16 / f18 in turns and can shoot off missiles .The radar , I believe is superb and the whole packet is extremely pilot friendly.

Look at it this way. The Mig 21's are dying . Tejas appears to be void ab initio. The numbers have to kept up otherwise we shall have to respond to a Paki Attack by bombing them with RFP's.We need urgent replacements on a squad by squad basis. The MMRCA choosing can go on but there is no harm in placing an order for 60 Gripens to assist the Mirages and Fulcrums. That is if the Swedes are up to it. I am sure they can if the color of money is right.

But the whole point is .Do our Air marshalls have the balls to confront and not conform ? Yours truly sees no indication of that as of now.

Anonymous said...

In the long run, geopolitically, India's adversary is China. Pakistan is a side show that China uses to its own advantages. And here, one must ask between China and India, who will France or Germany or UK favor truly? At the last G20 summimt in Cannes, the French only have loving eyes for China, they even have time for a dinner between friends. As to India, sorry too busy. And that is not surprising, one can count how many French weapon systems are on the Chinese latest warships today. Did not the US protest to France recently regarding their technology transfer of advanced airborne infrared sensors to China? That is not to say Germans are not falling heads over heels with China as well. Unless I am wrong, China MBTs are powered by MTU variants. If I am to buy Rafales or Typhoons, I would be thinking hard in this strategic context. In addition, with Tejas dragging its feets, I wonder whether 100+ Typhoons and Rafales, even backed by 200 SU-30 can truly prevail over the 1000s of SU-27/30, J10 and J20 that China will be rolling out like Chinese cookies as we speak.

Vader said...

Obiwan said...

"which may still be Rafale, no ?)"

Everything is possible when the commies are in the government but, to be honest, I really don´t believe that even they would be so crazy to buy a fighter that cost 142,3 million euros per carcass, and was rejected worldwide in the last 20 years.

Thanks god our actual President appears to be many more rational in wich concerns to money than the drunk that one day, in an ethyl attack, announce the buy of Rafale...

But the question continues: will be India the only customer in the whole world for Rafale?

I am a stranger and know little of Indian needs, but I know that your country is so poor as mine. And if my country (which has a miserable dozen Mirage-2000 and fifty F-5E) had a fleet of 200 Su-30 and were developing the PAK-FA, I would not be even a little worried about buying the cheapest fighter, though something less capable than the most expensive.

The truth: Rafale, the omniloser fighter.

Best regards.

Anonymous said...

http://www.ainonline.com/?q=aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2011-12-01/swiss-choose-cost-effective-gripen-over-rafale-and-eurofighter

hey hey...this report mentions that for 22 jets, gripen NG costs ~0.155 billion (155 million / per plane??)

and EF costs ~0.195 billion (195 million / per plane)..


and Rafale costs somewhere in between..

Not much of a difference..Who told gripen is cheaper???

-Sudheendra S

Anonymous said...

Must say that Dassault says they don't understand they lost this deal. Both Dassault and Typhoon would cost Switserland some $ 4 biljon dollars against the 3,2$ for the Gripen. But remember this deal is with total Life Cycle Cost for at least 30 years.

The French offered less Rafale A/C for the same money (dousn't say howmany). What would you choose, 22 aircraft or 16? Quantity dous matter! Especialy with the quality of the Gripen NG.

Anonymous said...

''In both reports, the corps commander Gygax specifically recommends the purchase of the French Rafale. "The Rafale by Dassault product is recommended as a new fighter aircraft of the Swiss Air Force," is it in black and white.''

http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/berne-enquete-sur-la-divulgation-de-rapports-secrets-sur-le-gripen-2011-12-02

There is going to be an inquiry of leak of test reports that Gipen had weaknesses ,which were not highlighted and that Rfale was the recommendation.

Jeff said...

LOL! Funny cartoon in a Swiss newspaper!
http://www.letemps.ch/chappatte

Anonymous said...

Operating costs are going to be higher for EF and rafale. no doubt...

but when you get twice the range and weapons payload with better avionics, may be Rafale and EF might still be worth for what they are, when compared to Gripen. I mean to say, it could still be possible that Gripen is expensive compared to Typhoon / Rafale if we have Cost / Capability Ratio of all the aircrafts including operating costs.

Hopefully the government also divulges even these details.

-Sudheendra S

Anonymous said...

Operating costs are going to be higher for EF and rafale. no doubt...

but when you get twice the range and weapons payload with better avionics, may be Rafale and EF might still be worth for what they are, when compared to Gripen. I mean to say, it could still be possible that Gripen is expensive compared to Typhoon / Rafale if we have Cost / Capability Ratio of all the aircrafts including operating costs.

Hopefully the government also divulges even these details.

-Sudheendra S

Anonymous said...

lol! the swiss air force seem very unhappy and sad. wrong toys.

http://www.letemps.ch/chappatte

Anonymous said...

General Electric and Rolls-Royce are ending the F136 program after deciding to discontinue self-funding the alternate engine for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program. They are announcing this just as SAAB Gripen 39 gets another order, this time planned with the GE-F414 engine from start. Is this a sign of GE now pooling resources into the development of the increased performance upgrade of the F414? With this upgrade the Gripen NG will get +20% thrust (vs. the standard GE-F414 used in the Gripen NG, in continuing flight testing as we speak) and in an instant better thrust/weight than all but the F22. You heard me right Rafale fanboys; significantly better thrust/weight than Rafale.. There will be a number of takers for this new F414; F18E/F, Gripen NG, Tejas. Most likely +1000 engines, anyone believe that GE won't proceed...

Anonymous said...

And with the improved GE-F414 (enhanced performance engine) the thrust will get to ca 117.6kN (1 pretty light weight engine) compared to Rafales Snecma M88 at max 75kn x 2 (with weight of two engines + larger and heavier ariframe). Gripen NG is/will be a smaller plane with lower drag, and higher thrust/weight vs Rafale. Well if you don't violate the laws of physics, then that will undoubtly give the Gripen better climb rate and dogfight power manouvering than the Rafale. That is simple physics. But one thing the Gripen NG will never do is haul nuclear bombs, os if that is a prerequisit then congrats to IAF; you have choosen wisely.

Rupta said...

The thing is, the reason why the Gripen fell behind in the evaluation scores in Switzerland was because Switzerland only allowed the C/D Gripens specifications and limitations. Not the NG. However, it seems that the Swiss are interested in the Gripen NG (E/F) and will thus get an AESA radar, a thrust/weight ratio more or less equal to the Rafale with the new F414 engine, frontal IRST, 360° IR coverage, new electronic warfare systems and a new fuselage with reduced radar cross signature aswell as reduced infra red signature.

It also seems as the only true reason to why India deselected the Gripen from the M-MRCA was because of the Radar. If Sweden and Switzerland now will partner on the JAS 39E/F Gripen, that means they will partner on the Raven PS-05 AESA radar. Perhaps this will alter the outcome of the M-MRCA?

I don't see why India would want to replace their MiG-21's with a dual-engine jet (as they already have the MiG-29K, the Su-30MKI and soon the HAL FGFA). Especially now that the Tejas seems more problematic than ever and they need a fighter with similar (but better) qualities and performance.

With the Gripen E/F you'll get likewise performance, but much higher availability at a much better price compared to the Eurofighter and the Rafale.

Anonymous said...

French defense minister Gerard Longuet just announced the closing of the Rafale production line if no further orders after the 180 for french airforce/navy!

Anonymous said...

Old opinion, but still appropriate...

Light: Jas-39 instead of Tejas
Middle: Mig-29M+K and ongoing development (Mig-35)
Future Middle: AMCA with RD-33, F414 or Kaveri?
Heavy: SU-30 and upcoming FGFA

Anonymous said...

A great choice for the swiss. Im american but i have seen the gripen in action, its a truely impressive aircraft. Im not surprised that the gripen beat the competition.