Friday, November 18, 2011

MMRCA Winner Will Emerge Mid-December: IAF Chief

Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, currently in Bangalore for the station commanders conference, spoke to the press a couple of hours ago, where he was (surprise, surprise) asked about the M-MRCA. Here's what he said: "We're calculating very hard. A lot of work is going on. In another four weeks, we should be able to wrap it up. No matter how long it takes, we have to get it right. There are a lot of complicated figures. But mid-December we should have a good sense of who gets selected."

Photo / Samaylive


deepak said...

"No matter how long it takes(no matter loosing 100s of pilots in aircraft crashes, no matter if their family suffer, no matter if our nations security is at stake) , we have to get it right.There are a lot of complicated figures(when the price shoot up from 12 bn to 20 bn due to delay). But mid-December we should have a good sense of who gets selected(then in another year we will anounce the winner).

deepak said...

No matter how long it takes(no matter how many pilots we lose in crashes no matter how much thair family suffer, no matter when our nations security is at stake, no matter if the platform gets decades old), we have to get it right. There are a lot of complicated figures(because of delay 12bn shoots up to 20bn). But mid-December we should have a good sense of who gets selected(then in an year or two we will declare the winner).

Anonymous said...

like Sunny Deol dialogue "taarikh pe taarikh"....

Anonymous said...

Hey Deepak calm down. Its true we cannot make any mistake which will be hard on us later especially during global economic crisis. If everything stays the same, we will also start feeling the heat in a couple years.

As far as this 20 billion$ figure is concerned, its just speculation. Nobody knows how much the value is appreciated. There's no doubt the price has increased and this was the reason why 9.6 billion $ was awarded in the first place with an option to increase the figure to 12 billion $. The cost of the project most likely to be around 12 billion $ but even if the cost is increased further, it won't cross 15 billion $.

Rajeev said...

I think they are calculating very hard - 1*2^22 + (222 + 222) *2222 + 2345 + 2300 +- 330000 * 22*22^3

Since they are so many calculations and they doing it on paper without any calculator and/or computer, it taking this long, just under 4 years, or 10 years from the time MRCA idea was launched.

The air chief also claims that the result will be released in mid-dec, but did not tell which year, most likely 2020. By then, all MIGs would have crashed, Dassault would have gone out of business and Eurofighter will be abandoned since Italy, Spain and Austria went bankrupt and UK decided to buy F35 instead.

Anonymous said...

People who think the IAF doesnt care about its men live in s f**ls paradise. There can be nothing further from truth. Let us know whether you ever have interacted with someone from the IAF to start with?

Anonymous said...

when he said envelopes would be opened in 10 days, it actually took a little more time than that. I am betting L1 will be announced first week of Jan.

May the best plane for India win!!.

Anonymous said...

so one of them will not enjoy their Xmas !!!!

Anonymous said...

mid december in the year 2020.

Anonymous said...

I guess people like deepak and Rajiv really don't have experience in life..

Tell me gentlemen,if are so qualified then why don't you go there and conduct the deal.IAF is a very competent force and tell me you fools,if IAF is really a fool(at least that is what I can perceive from your amateur comments) then why are such hot shot defence companies taking this deal seriously???

If you have been followinf this deal carefully,you'll realize that US Govt. is very upset with them losing out.

So all I can advise is that people like you should go and do some research and then post comments.

Comments like the ones that you have posted are very good laughs.

michael said...

India has always taken far to long to make any decisions,lets face it your civil servants learned well from the UK.
In this case I think they are correct in looking minutely at the details of this deal,you need the right aircraft for the right price.
I think your main concern should be whether HAL,you will be building most of these aircraft on licence.
With their track record can they deliver?

Anonymous said... what anonymous just cause you are not on Gmail.

UAE is not selecting Rafale. Excellent news, now Pakistan shall not even have a glimpse of it, forget digital signatures etc. UAE is cribbing big time about Dassault diplomacy, good that makes the Rafale a very very good aircraft. The more countries that do not buy them means its strengths and weakness shall be little known, biggest weapon in a war is the element of surprise. China knows abt SU30MKI and hence does not dare it till it has a superior one. Rafale will make China and Pakistan more confused. Irrespective we are a nuclear power and we need a rafale and not the EFT which does not support nuclear bombs. EADS pls it is a war machine not a toy to be made safe before a child plays with it.
What calculations are we talking, much parts are Americans in typhoon, that means we seek US permission to wage a war, so we will be nothing better than South Korea.
Rafale is independent and French have become more aggressive with Libya and Iran, one action another comment.
Naval version ready, for replacing the Mig29Ks.
What else do we want in a $20 billion deal, it will the biggest loss to India in case the Rafale is not selected.
God bless India and save us from Congress (Ever hungry and always greedy to get some meat out of a defence deal and compromise India's growth).

michael said...

In regards to Rafale you logic is completely flawed.The more countries that do not buy it means that these countries do not consider it worth what is being asked for it.
As you state that you are a nuclear power,your country has missiles capable of delivering a nuclear warhead,why on earth would you want to put nuclear weapons on an air superiority aircraft.Your statement re seek US permission to wage a war is ridiculous,you buy Russian equipment do you have to seek permission from them? Do you think the UK had to seek permission from the US before we used Typhoon against Libya,nonsense.
It will be up to your politicians to make the choice but from what I understand the IAF prefers Typhoon.

Another Anonymous said...

LOL!! Anonymous@2:21 PM

Satish Chandra said...

In a press release dated January 10, 2011 I said:-
------------START QUOTE-----------
Stealth or no-stealth, 5th generation or 4th generation, fighter aircraft are as obsolete for India's defence as bows and arrows. They can be used against neighbors such as Pakistan and China but the United States is EVERYBODY'S neighbor. It has already invaded and occupied Afghanistan, a part of traditional India and will expand its occupation to the rest of the subcontinent. I am India's expert in strategic defence, the father of India's strategic program including the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program and the world's greatest scientist (my biography is in Marquis' Who's Who in the World, 2011 and earlier editions). The U.S. invasion of Afghanistan means the coast-to-coast destruction of the U.S. by India; see my blog titled 'Nuclear Supremacy for India Over U.S.', which can be found by a Yahoo search with the title, for what India needs to do. Russia and other white countries are U.S. allies. These are the enemies to destroy. All other enemies will be taken care of automatically. Conventional arms are worthless for destroying the United States. Nuclear arms to destroy the United States with a FIRST STRIKE -- this is the key -- are cheap and easy to produce with technology India already has. All the money earmarked for fighter aircraft etc., and more, must be pumped into research, development and production of missiles able to deliver India's nuclear warheads -- in the thousands -- to the continental United States. India's missile scientists & engineers should have tested such missiles to their full range decades ago -- everything else, including short and intermediate range missiles and missile defence, is secondary and tertiary -- but have not done that because of prohibitions by India's C.I.A.-controlled governments. This must be done on a war footing; the first step is to destroy RAW through which the C.I.A. rules India; see my blog. Producing such weapons in the thousands and very quickly is important. This means that the vast majority of them must be land-based, including road and rail-mobile, missiles rather than submarine-based which take a long time to produce.
-------------END QUOTE------------
For more, see my blog.

Anonymous said...

If the IAF truly cared about its men, it would have retired the flying death traps called Mig-21. The way these are crashing, they will be retired one way or the other. The tragedy is that one way will be at the expense of good men while the other would unfortunately take courage.

Anonymous said...

Deepak wrote "(when the price shoot up from 12 bn to 20 bn due to delay)"

The price increase is only partly due to natural inflation of costs of production. The scope of MMRCA was also changed to a more capable platform, which basically follows the 'beefing up' of the definitions of light and medium aircraft: originally seen as a Mirage 2000 requirement (which Gripen NG more than meets) that goalpost was obviously moved to a more modern Medium aircraft definition (EF and Rafale). The number of aircraft is also being increased which obviously affects price. Needless to say, the competition between Rafale and Eurofighter puts strong pressure on both to offer a good deal: India will likely be getting as good a deal as any purchaser of these aircraft will get, including the original producer countries... Any extra that is paid will be covering the duplication of production facilities, which is a strategic choice for India at both military and industrial levels.

My question: This process was supposed to be over, i.e. including final negotiations with selected vendor, because quoted prices are only valid until the end of this year. I would assume either vendor would be willing to ad-hoc extend their bid validity for a few months if necessary, but would doing that put the MoD in a spot regarding competitive bidding rules?, forcing them to re-assess the bids?

RockyT said...

Why is it that people feel the urge to bring Congress-bashing into a totally irrelevant topic? Grow up guys!

6 weeks is not bad at all, considering they are analyzing 2 deals. Most commentators here do not seem to realize the complexity involved in analyzing financial documents in such major projects. All the various departments that have to work together to ensure they are all on the same page with requirements and expectations while comparing the 2 deals; it is not as simple as it may seem.

All that said, I hope Rafale wins! :)

michael said...

Satish Chandra,
You are obviously suffering from some sort of mental illness,as well as being a war monger and a racist,I suggest you seek urgent medical help.
Now get back in your box.

François said...

here in France the specialists said the UAE contrat is not loose but very difficult.

for the swiss contrat the price of the Rafale is beetwen the Typhon and the Saab Grippen

for the family Dassault the military aircraft are a minor activity
they are stronger in light jet Falcon in electronic and press

In Libya the Typhon can't drop laser bomb alone and the Rafale ave the best disponibility with the Mirage 2000 ( french or UAE)

bonne journée et merci pour ce blog

Satish Chandra said...

For the full context of what is said below, see GaddafiCrimeDOTblogspotDOTcom:-

November 18, 2011: When I say the new Chief of Air Staff, N. A. K. Browne, is a CIA-RAW man, I mean he literally sits at CIA-supplied terminals to participate in crimes against India. More than a thousand Indian Air Force aircraft have crashed since 1970, the vast majority of the crashes caused by microwaves from U. S. satellites. In his first week in office as Chief of Air Staff, Browne caused two Indian Air Force fighter planes to crash with microwaves from satellites, to give a boost to his bid to buy worse than worthless foreign aircraft for several tens of billions of dollars of which he will get a hefty cut along with the Defence Minister and the Italian whore who gets the largest cut.

I said on October 11 '11 (GaddafiCrimeDOTblogspotDOTcom ) that the 'suicide' of the chief test pilot Baldev Singh was murder, to facilitate the claim of the fraudulent 'delay' in inducting the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, being used to justify the worse than worthless purchase abroad. India builds Sukhoi MKI aircraft from raw materials; why do you need to buy fighter aircraft from abroad?

N. A. K. Browne, A. K. Antony and the Italian whore should be booked for the murder of Baldev Singh along with the head of RAW. All former heads of RAW should be booked for the murders of hundreds of Indian Air Force pilots.

The murders of several politicians by air crash have also been accomplished by microwaves from satellites. A recent example was the murder of the Andhra Pradesh chief minister by air crash. In my blog I have described how Indira Gandhi when prime minister in 1980 went to her kitchen with the then U. S. Vice President and former CIA Director, George Herbert Walker Bush, to arrange for the murder by air crash of her son Sanjay Gandhi who had taken to slapping her in the presence of others under my influence and the then CIA Director, Frank Carlucci, publicly claimed credit for that air crash via a letter that appeared in National Review.

makapaka said...

Satish is not only smoking something very strong but is also and first of all very unpolite. He does not deserve to post here.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Michael from

Primarily spares are controlled by the parent country manufacturing the aircraft. If US does not want us to attack Pakistan, who will give spares for their manufactured aircraft. Secondly how do you exactly propose a nuclear state use in a war a nuclear bomb...pls educate yourself. Fist choice for a nuclear hit is always through an aircraft, missiles are considered as a second alternative. Your knowledge level sucks...when you mention that Typhoon is an air superiority aircraft, since I agree, then what is it it doing in a Multi role competition. More importantly every aspect of the Rafale is superior to Typhoon except electronics or avionics. Let me elaborate cause your knowledge is too dumb for that:
1. Full load capacity higher then the weight of the plane, this is not possible in EFT,
2. More wet pylons then EFT,
3. EFT says their battlefield aircraft will not support Nuclear is not an escort plane, but bought to be used in case of war...WAR has no boundaries,
4. Single country dependency, cuts through red tape and any future obstacle arising out of disagreements between the tier one countries,
5. Saudi does joint exercise with Pakistan, revealing Typhoons any and all truth about digital signatures, radar capabilities etc., in short entire weakness and strength to pakistan handed over on a platter.

Now to solve your doubts on more countries buying the plane.
F22 Raptor, the best in the world today only for use by USAF.
SU-37, only with Russia, will sell them only once they are very close to inducting SU-50.
Very superior planes are used only by their primary manufacturers.
Export is only to subsidise the cost of the plane development. God you dont know this much.
Major losses for the rafale in as many competition that it has participated is blamed on higher commercials or dassault diplomacy, never a case for the fighter being less worthy.

Libyan use also demonstrated what it can clear any pending doubts.

Michael ONE suggestion...please educate yourself to be worthy of commenting on such topics.

michael said...

Satish Chandra,
I have no doubt that in the world you inhabit these things do go on,fortunately for the rest of us this is not the real world.
It is comforting to know that Indian mental institutions allow their patients to have access to the internet,as it does provide some light relief in an otherwise dull world.
Now be a good boy and accept your medication off the nurse.

Ravi Khanna said...

shiv: rafale has underpower engine. every time all countries says the same!! then will india prefer lower bidder rafale... india also knows that from start rafale has underpower engine then why did it not eliminate reom mmrca.. i think still there is some controversy in aircraft deal... think twice... first roomers rafale was out and then by indian deligates it was not out. all contenders know that rafale has under power engine. then why should india select that kind of aircraft??? india wants technology for money if they go for rafale they can get some tehnology. but with a tag price. hope india decides wisely technology or under power engine???

Anonymous said...

Browne Sir ,

jooth bole kaowa kate.

michael said...

It is to my surprise to find such rudeness on this site,I have noted that it seems to be endemic and can only assume that it is a defensive ploy to hide your ignorance of military matters.
In the first instance Typhoon is manufactured by a European consortium and has nothing to do with the USA,in fact it is in direct competition with the F15/15 for foreign contracts.The US parts that are used in Typhoon are bought by europe from the US and therefore do not come under any restrictions or secrecy rules as in your ignorance you seem to suggest
Your knowledge of nuclear strategy is obviously at the kindergarten level,as is you understanding of the capabilities of Typhoon,if your expertise is of such a high standing as you seem to think then you would be building this sort of aircract yourself instead of buying it from a foreign country.
In western web sites we try and have a serious discussion without reverting to insult which seems to be your forte.
With your aggresive self opinionated outlook it is obvious that you are unable to argue your point in an adult manner.
If your attitude was mirrored by your military high command you be in an awfull mess.
I suggest you do a lot more research on military tactics in all respects,instead of trying to appear to have knowledge that you obviously lack.
I really cannot waste my time trying to educate you in matters that you are clearly incapable of understanding.
You remind me of a penguin,all flap and no action.
NB:- It would show you to be more of a man if you gave your name instead of hiding behind 'Anonymous' or are you afraid your ignorance might be recognised.

Anonymous said...

^^^ Michael!!! you seems to be quite innocent. USA says that it has removed DRDO and other defence units from banned list. But the reality is many components which have dual use purpose still can not be sourced from USA. Israel is not able to sell its AESA developed for fighters to india on the diktats of USA. Its possible there are many components with US origin in Eurofighter and to some extent in Rafale too.

Anonymous said...

Reply again to Michael:

We Indians are hugely assertive, generally when westerners do not have any answer they consider any question or argument in front of them as rude, we are used to such escapist behaviours.

Now if your psycho analysis about my personal traits is over, can you run your so called brain that you feel is hugely knowledgeable to give us a point to point reply on the so called strengths of Typhoon are, be specific to the case in discussion i.e.: MMRCA competition in India, do not provide a website copied feature list for the EFT.

Thanks for accepting that components are bought from USA. Also you must be the most keen non Indian on this blog replying to every query as if your country and you have this as a sole motive for human existence on earth.

Now to answer anonymous query.
I have a yahoo ID which does not allow me to login and hence I mention it in all my discussions.
Sorry if you are used to Braille, cause that could be the only reason you seem to not read my email ID.

And sincere thanks for acknowledging that it has been a waste of time for you, cause it was no different replying to your wasteful personal analysis of my character rather than a solid demonstration of your knowledge/info on why EFT is superior to Rafale for India.

Same suggestion...only repeat version...Michael Educate yourself.
Don't claim your worthiness, rather earn it graciously.

Anonymous said...

There were a few legends around the blogs. Let me try to demystify a couple of them:
One of those was that Typhoon´s price was way above Rafale´s. I mean not a little bit—as it would be justified by being a larger airframe with much more powerful engines and better avionics—but way above Rafale. This legend is now dead, as it is clear that the two flyaway prices must be pretty close.
If for more or less the same flyaway price you can get Typhoon with two state-of-the-art engines (20,000-lb thrust each and 20% growth potential), a big aperture AESA radar with a re-positionable antenna giving you 200deg field of view, you may understand that you are getting a much better deal. A better deal than an under-powered jet (17,000-lb thrust with poor characteristics in supersonic regime and high altitude) with a nose cone allowing only (and forever) an undersized fixed antenna with poor detection range. A fighter that at first look and on paper may look OK, but that under closer scrutiny reveals serious shortcomings and eventually is rejected even by the most enthusiastic would-be buyers. The UAE case is the last of a long serie of deals that were eventually refused. The case history is pretty scary at this stage.
Anyhow at the same cost as Rafale, it seems evident that Typhoon is far superior in cost-effectiveness, which is the key parameter in any scientific final assessment of value.
The other myth and legend is that Typhoon, albeit a superb air superiority machine, is pretty useless for anything else. By the way Libya has demonstrated this is untrue.
Now the fact that a very competent IAF team has downselected it (as a Multi Role Combat Aircraft!) during one of the most exhaustive verification process ever done in the fighter world count for nothing for the dogmatic fellows and the fanboys out there. And they tend to outnumber the cool heads and scientific types. Truth is that Typhoon was designed from the outset as a multirole fighter (optimised for air dominance), is used by the UK as such and soon by Germany and Spain. This is the ideal fighter for India, as it will help in achieving first air superiority as a precondition for a successful campaign and then swing into surface attack roles.

Rajeev said...

I agree with you Anon@10.34pm, my favorite was also Typhoon until I heard Qatar is searching for alternatives for Rafale. I am expecting that Dec date will again get pushed behind and meanwhile Qatar doesnot order Rafale, then Rafale could be much better option, granted on tech basis, Eurofighter is better.

The reasons being:
1. If France is unable to secure any order, may be other than India, probably this would be last series of Dassault that would fly and France might consider joining Eurofighter program. So, we might be able to get all Dassault Engineers and basic infrastructure essentials moved to India.
2. Dassault ToT needs just France might mean it would be easier to move things fast, considering sluggishness at our end!
3. Pak friendly country having gained no experience with Rafale should provide little bit of surprise. That might not amount to much.

My main reasoning is that if France goes to wash its hands off fighter program for future, it might be a boom as we would gain expertise with very little effort. A unified engine for Tejas, Rafale and future AMCA would be great!

Anonymous said...

Anon Bhai ,

Kudos. But do have a look at the body and other language of Browne Sahib. The man appears to be apologetic and almost begging. He could have given an ultimatum MMS and told him to complete the bloody evaluation by a date or else ! He has the authority and an empowering uniform. Instead our man sings bhajans or hymns about selection process and hopes to receive some alms one day.

gps vehicle tracking said...

I love more Indian Air Force and also me wanted to joined ..........

Ravi Khanna said...

Rafale is the winner because all the missiles which is used by rafales are used by india.... Simple...

Ravi Khanna said...

Mr. Browne why so much suspense..... Tell Rafale is the Winner......