Friday, December 21, 2012

R.I.P. HAL's Basic Trainer

In what is a massive blow to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd's (HAL) prestige, reputation and, to a smaller extent, finances, the Indian MoD has scrapped the HTT-40 indigenous turboprop trainer programme. My friend Ajai Shukla at Business Standard reports that HAL has quoted a unit price per aircraft (when ready) that is twice the price of a Pilatus PC-7, 75 of which the Indian Air Force recently contracted as an emergency measure following the grounding of its fleet of HAL HPT-32 Deepak trainers in July 2009.

Will be following this up more details.

30 comments :

straight_curve said...

I find it very funny that HAL in spite of knowing the price of Pilatus PC-7 quoted twice for HTT-40. Thanks God it would have been even more funny if MoD would have accepted the proposal!!! Bravo...MoD!!!

straight_curve said...

I find it very funny that HAL in spite of knowing the price of Pilatus aircraft quoted twice for HTT-40. Thanks God, it would have been even more funny had MoD accepted this proposal. Bravo MoD!!!

Varun said...

I am all for indigenous development but I am glad MoD has scrapped this HAL project taking in consideration how HAL pretty much has complete monopoly over Indian aircraft industry and are always woefully behind schedule. Tejas for example..is what, like 10 years behind schedule and still hasn't received operational clearance from the IAF, and might take another 2-3 years and thousands of crores of tax payers money before we see a squadron. The fact that it is public money and none to very little accountability makes it one of the worst functioning billion dollar company in India. It can learn a thing or two from the Navy and ISRO.

Anonymous said...

.
Dear HAL:

When are you and your nephews are dying?

Regards,

- Anon

Anonymous said...

Till now haven't yet understood what is the role of HAL in our country.

Anonymous said...

very soon another headlines will be -
RIP Rafale, FGFA

Anonymous said...

HAL SHOULD ALSO BE GIVEN TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR

Anonymous said...

Buy the way govt. always do what they do keep India a consumer. Why we never hope to be a supplier? Govt. really never tries to sell Indian product. Just browse the Defense PSU sites looks like junk. Few Dhruvs have been sold because others wants it. At the price tag of Tejas mk1 no fighter is capable like it. If you know a little bit of production you will know price is always high for low production rate. HTT-40 price includes development cost + prototype cost + trial cost etc. You had to loose to gain. Give money at time receive product at time. Even development cost of Kaveri engine is less. It is late because govt. want it late. Military tech. is not laddu you must be fast to win. China ahead of India because they grab tech. & make a Chinese version.

Anonymous said...

Nothing funny at all if you include the R&D into the place. When HTT-40 is mass production, the unit cost will be down a big notch. Too bad HAL drops the program; HAL should continue on it like on Tejas, which will be successful anyway, albeit little late. There are many markets in the world need this trainer.

Rahul(Kolkata) said...

Shiv, what do you mean by those non-existent entities like "prestige", "reputation" etc etc when it comes to HAL???? "Money" is also non-existent because it is a PSO with "naukri" secure till 58 with lifelong pension...

DISMANTLE HAL. PERIOD.....

Anonymous said...

MoD found out... as usual HAL... designed the 40 with... stolen half designs... so suring flight... if there sre some issues... HAL doesn't know... why its happening... like ijt... they can only scratch their heads... the other alf they don't have...

Anonymous said...

HAL offers monopolistic price and hegemonic time lines for a captive Harmed Forces.....

Dadagiri....

hotgene said...

If they keep on developing things in this pace, then more projects will be R.I.P.... Wake up HAL...

Anonymous said...

HAL must be fully privatised, with just one or two divisions engaged in overhaul to be handed over to the air force. Bunch of jokers who cannot even design and build a single turbine blade same or better than any of their collaborators.

Anonymous said...

Its unfair to criticize HAL for all the ills in our defence industry. DRDO's GTRE totally failed to deliver a single working engine even after 30 years of its existence.one day a report appears Kaveri his and that ,but another a day report appears kaveri can only be fitted in railway engines and warships!!!HAL has been thrust with obsolete Russian technology,including the so called uptodate fighter su-30mki. Dassault is questioning MoD to define the role of HAL in MMRCA!!! Dassault doesn't want HAL to absorb
its composite technologies,EW suite ,AESA RADAR, ENGINE and other advanced avionics,which HAL can apply to its other aircraft programs. instead Dassault wants to open up an indian subsidiary and partner with Gas compnay called reliance industry,so that their technology will be safely in the French vaults,even though India pays for the technology transfer. its a conspiracy to keep HAL out of MMRCA!!!!Instead of opening new divisions in places like Kochi and trivandrum,where HAL can benefit from the avionics developed by ISRO for its PSLV and GSLv rockets and Microwave RF systems for its satellites, Mod opted for kasargod ,a remote place ,which has no industrial base and located in secluded spot. No IIT student joins and remain in HAL!!!LCA is ADA's design and HAL only manufactures as per ADA's design. The cream of ppl in HAL and ADA either have retired and left to look for greener pastures. As per news reports appeared in the press lCA was grounded for 3 moths duw to pilot helmet obstructing ,ejection mechanism. ADA choose the wrong engine and it was overweight and because of this a new engine has to be selected as the LCA mk1 showed limitations. what ADA and DRDO top brass are doing as project managers,when LCA is slipping badly for various reasons. HAL is trying to sort out issues with IJT,which IAF also needs badly!!! NAL SARAS crashed like a duck, killing experienced test pilots. Its blamed on the saras flight controls,pusher engine configuration etc.... HAL is not an academic R$D like DRDO labs and NAL!!! The a/c like F-16,F-15 ,F-18 have been designed in the sixties to eighties. they have not matured in 22 days like a chicken out of an egg!!! If india leans towards russia ,America gets angry and puts an embargo on defence exports to india.Admiral gorshakov is a bloddy example how we are being sodomized. see what is the status of our semiconductor industry!!! why cant TATAs, Reliance, Birlas, Hindujas open up semiconductor design and fab facilities to support indian aerospace needs and as well commercial markets for survival? our pvt industry wants to make quick money by selling lands and shoddy building in real estate business.During war situation a HAL employee can be kicked in the butt in the midst of the night and can be ordered to go to Leh!!! can the same be done to the Russians,the french, the Americans and Israelis? HAL is a fully Govt controlled company. The collaborations,the licenses are thrust upon it!!!Academicians and Academics have no value in HAL ,because the objective of HAL is not to make one prototype wonder and close the project, after giving a president gold medal and an young scientist award. HAL R&D is oriented towards mass production.ppl happily send their children to work in US malls!!! Too many rules ,regulations in procurements are hampering the progress and are grossly elongating product development cycle times. Has anybody bothered about this aspect.Almost everything has to be imported.has anybody gave thought to develop raw material required by indian aerospace industry with in India? yes HAL has so many ills which are plagued in all the DPSUs and DRDO is not a holy cow either.HAL is like river GANGA of the indian aviation industry ...polluted,raped,ravaged and it will die its own death sooner or later as per your wish!!!!

Anonymous said...

i know a person who worked in HAL and then resigned and teaching engineering students, i asked "why you throw that prestigeos job and doing silly things here?",
And he replied "work culture in HAL does not suit me, i will be better satisfied teaching interested students...", just remember he worked in USA in some opto electric compony and came to India for HAL...

Anonymous said...

i know a person who worked in HAL and then resigned and teaching engineering students, i asked "why you throw that prestigeos job and doing silly things here?",
And he replied "work culture in HAL does not suit me, i will be better satisfied teaching interested students...", just remember he worked in USA in some opto electric compony and came to India for HAL...

avinash said...

Clearly we lack capabilities to accurately predict the cost. Its across all fields and just not in aerospace.

Anonymous said...

Designing a basic trainer is not a great technology . It reminds me of P-51 mustang which was designed in 19 months and tested and finally decided to change the engine to spitfire Merlin engine and a world beater was born.This could have been designed at least 10 years back.Needless to say HAL was not designing the engine and crucial parts which were to be fitted from abroad. HAL has poor reputation in selecting the engine as they chose a poor engine for IJT , where larzac engine was underpowered and AL 55 is experimental unreliable engine.Again wrong engine was chosen for saras which is underpowered.Completely new thinking is needed if HAL has to succeed in building LCA they have to get someone who has experience in developing production line. Completely new computerized assembly line be developed and a supply line be developed so that all products can be made available a quick reliable consistent assembly be performed and LCA mark 2 be produced in huge numbers.I ate least appreciate the decision maker who took right decision on LCA mk2 engine . It has already produced 128 KN of power but then the life drops. In wartime scenario that would be important.It is foolish to believe that Dassault would ever help us in developing a assembly line for Tejas as they see it as a potential competitor and dont want it to be fully developed.Rafale has underpowered obsolete engine when compared to LCA mk2.One thing has to be made clear that french are here to loot.Charging 41 million $ for avionics update for obsolete mirage which has questionable engine, Avionics need to be upgraded every 7-10 years and I can imagine they would charge more than 100 millions for rafale avionics upgrade.They would not hand over production technology as they would loose the edge and India and china can beat them in price and sensible upgrades which i feel no country would be able to pay the upgrade price which french are asking and clearly looting to take out their development cost.Tejas mk2 would cost a little more than 41 million and i feel develop twin engined larger version with front canards and internal weapons bay Tejas Mk3 and quickly develop a computerized assembly line with japan and south Korea as these two countries are in desperate need of large numbers of cheap high end fighter due to china's posturing. Right decisions and right gambling now would change the course of history and luck always favors the brave ones.there would be issues if we go ahead with french option as royalty money asked for shakti engine , huge price demanded for gearbox for LUH and submarines supplied without engines.

TIMBAKTOO

P.K.Chaudhuri said...

It is a crime against indian society by the government to scrap such indigenous R&D projects. We have earlier made a historical blunder to retire the HF24 Marut aircraft. India must learn from its bad experience of the imported AJT Hawk trainers.
The corrupt politicians are not allowing the developmnent of indigenous weapon system only to be able to procure imported equipment and obtain political donations.
We should immedaitely manufacture a few trainer version of LCA to expedite its induction in IAF. We sould start manufacturing marine Kaveri engines and put them for active service so that it can be further developed. Even the Kaveri Aero-engine should be installed on LCA to test and further develop its capabilities at higher speeds. The policy of the government is wrong and non-transparent due to which there is practically no export of weapon systems and equipment manufactured in India.
There should be substantial disinvestment of such companies as BDL,HAL,GRSE etc.
I appeal to the government to start manufacturing LCA MarkI and expedite the LCA MarkII program. The manufacturing capacity of Helicopters must be increased substantially. Indians have started watching the performance of the government.

Anonymous said...

Scrap Rafale and fasttrack Tejas Mk3. 5 billion will go into madams kitty

Anonymous said...

When u start from scratch there is bound to be delay. Poach engineers from abroad. Show sense of urgency. The Chinks will whip our asses if they can. Hurry up....stop blame game and start working....and for GODs sake stop thieving.

sents said...

No need buy HTT-40, but don't stop funding for the research. We cannot always depend on foreign vendors.

Anonymous said...

HAL builds the Garrat TP-331 under licence. Why doesnt it use it for HTT-40?

Anonymous said...

Reservations are the reason why HAL and other PSUs have become so useless. When merit is not worshipped, it flies away. Indian brains are productive in NASA, Lucent Labs, GE etc but attract cow-webs in India. No-one introspects, on-one changes the status quo, everyone is happy till jolted as in 1962,65, Kargils, Mumbais Hyderabads etc. Then we accept the shit and go back to sleep. Swiss bank accounts get fatter with imports and thats why no-one gives bamboo to PSUs or asks PSU Heads to account for shortfalls. PSU Heads should be forced to commit Harakiri if they fail.

Anonymous said...

I also fail to understand why HAL did not develop the Gnat into the HJT when they had the drawings and the experience of having built nearly 200 of them. The Gnat is a little more advanced than HJT-36 and a little less than the Hawk-32. India would have killed two birds with one stone.

Anonymous said...

Well....Strange at the way every intelligent being here commments on the HTT 40.....first thing first..the price offered was 34.9 crores...and the way IAF inflated it was by multiplying it with an escalation factor of 10% plus each year..
Now about the import content...well its 31 crores paid direct to swiss account and if you divide the total contract cost with the 75 units one gets a price of 40 crores approx..
The Maintenance contract is not in place and wonder which ghost is gonna pay for it..For an aerospace product life cycle cost is up to 18-20 times the per unit cost..thats where the Hawk made money and so will the Rafalle...
HAL has agreed for the exit clause and if it fails to fly this machine in 3 years it can be very well put out of the game...
50 years and still we need to import a basic trainer, one which cannot be upgraded to a Light attack role, has the most basic of cockpit and well will ensure a maintenance nightmare...
Why was the IAF sleeping on the proposal ever since the early 2000s if there was a fire in the training camp and then suddenly went ahead and signed the swiss guys...a piece of thought for the CAG guys..
Lastly the MOD has still not shot down the project and it actually cant.....
Rest will let the time speak

Anonymous said...

Exactly....it is very very surprising that someone has declared the HAL bid as twice the cost of the pilatuswalas. What is even more surprising is that HAL has not countered the claim.
HAL is an inefficient Pissu. You will find 80% of the workforce coming real late, gossiping, munching their panmasala, puffing their bidis, doing unionbazi and then leaving sharp at 5PM as if heavens are going to fall down if they dont kiss the feet of their bibis at 5.01PM. Untill labour laws are changed and unions abolished no PSUs can work. Administrators are afraid to confront sloppy workers because the unions will murder them.
Reservations, politically affiliated labour unions are the reason why Bharatvarsha does not even produce a pidly trainer aircraft. Embrazer started out in the late 70's , employs a third of the workforce and has three times the turnover.
All Defence related PSUs and organisations should be brought under the Army Act.

Anonymous said...

HAL needs autonomy. Look at what Brazil did to its aviation company Embraer.

Rajee said...

I have a question to all the authors of above comments. WHY INDIA COULD NOT PRODUCE A CAR LIKE HONDA CITY OR BMW ETC, Is it the incompetence of Indian automobile industry . The answer is no. But it is due to the fact that Indian mentality never allowed to grow domestic development. Very often we talk about Chinese success, it is only due to one mantra .. indigenous....indigenous