Thursday, January 17, 2013

Dassault Pushes India To Up Rafale Order, India Says 'Good Wine Takes Time'

PHOTO / Wg Cdr RS Chauhan
Wire agency reports today suggest Dassault Aviation and the French government are looking to persuade the Indian government to immediately exercise options for 63 additional Rafale fighters over and above the 126 it looks to contract as part of the MMRCA acquisition.

A proposal of sorts was raised by the French when India's foreign minister Salman Khurshid visited Paris last week.

"Presently the contract under negotiation is for 126 aircraft but we are talking about the follow-up," AFP quoted a source as saying. It also quoted the Indian foreign minister as saying, when asked about when a contract would be signed, "We know good French wine takes time to mature and so do good contracts. The contract details are being worked out. A decision has already been taken, just wait a little for the cork to pop and you'll have some good wine to taste."

34 comments :

Anonymous said...

Not if it is a Beaujolais...

Anonymous said...

While I love my whisky and to some extent wine. I'm not sure if the FM can compare our defence requirement to wine....that too French!

My advice. Get done with the deal and let the Airforce have it's planes.

For heavens sake, the MMCRA deal is almost 20 years in the making. If I had a son at the time the requirement was rolled out, he would be 18 and eligble to marry.

P.s.: These comments were not written under the influence of wine :-)

Mr. RA said...

I think India should not ultimately refrain from the purchase of extra 63 Rafale fighters, so as to maintain the most urgent task of keeping up the numbers of squadrons.

Badri said...

good news... but need to speed-up.

Badri said...

Good News... need to speed-up

Badri said...

good news

Shantanu Dutta said...

Hi, can anyone please share what type of engines would our IAF rafales would b provided with ? M88-3D a thrust vectoring variant of the M88 engine or the M88-4E. Thought thrust vectoring capability was one of the requirement in the selected fighters

Abhiman said...

This is a DISASTROUS DECISION !!

Till when will you keep importing ?

Why in Heaven's sake is Tejas Mk-II not being considered ? It is CRIMINAL on the part of MoD and also IAF to sideline the Tejas and go for additional Rafales.

God knows how the IAF and MoD are playing into all this ??

Tejas Mk-II must be inducted into the IAF as the next MRCA. It is comparable to gripen-NG and F-16 Block 52.


A legislation must be enacted that says that if an indigenous product is under development, it must NOT be substituted by an import.

THE FRENCH ARE BRIBE-MASTERS AFTER ALL. RECALL THE SCORPENE SUBMARINE EPISODE A FEW YEARS BACK, WHICH WAS QUIETLY SHOVED UNDER THE CARPET.

WONDER HOW MUCH KHURSHEED, SONIA, AND BROWNE ARE PROMISED BY THIS DEALL.

Anonymous said...

Very slow procurement policy. We dont know why the foreign minister is involved in giving such statement. Where is the defence minister? Too much of wine drinking hang over.

Anonymous said...

IAF should borrow at 2 sq for training and plugging gaps. Then it let the french industry manufacture at 100 of them on double time . While we assemble 26 fighters in hal ,while manufacting mirages of the navy . After that , we should consider manufacturing them , not any sooner.

Dassualt spends more than 20 yrs to iron out the glitches . HAL things it can everything by following the instruction manual.

Anonymous said...

Président Hollande (France) come in Februar in India. THat looks good for an order of 189 rafale, because for more transfer technologie, compensation for Dassualt, For information
4 rafale fly 10 hours for an strategic flight from France to Mali, they strike and destroy succesfully target with aasm and gbu, it was a great demosntration, imagine with nuke of 100kt or scalp.

Anonymous said...

Abhiman, are you nuts ? No, really. What have you been sniffing, dude?

Anonymous said...

All the French have to do is transfer 25% to Maino Madams swiss account. They ought to get in touch with the Swedes and Germans and learn how to sell their stuff to India.

Anonymous said...

we will get french scorpene by 2025 & french rafale by 2050.

Anonymous said...

**MOD and Iaf , seems to think that the economic boom is here to stay***

Instead of purchasing 63 aircraft right away. We should buy 63 Mirage with full tot and set up a manufacturing base, then we should begin manufacture of Rafale.

While this happens on hand . Hal should start manufacturing modern composite mig 21 bison ,(cheap platforms , with modern weapons are formidable mix )ex cope india2004

Using med/heavy 100 million usd air assets for every day duties is not only expensive but retarded .
MOD and Iaf , seems to think that the economic boom is here to stay

Anonymous said...

shiv again any news on tejas aoa,spin tests,Gs

Abhiman said...

Anonymous @ 7:32. I breathe fresh air. What about you ?

I've been following the Tejas closely since the past many years.

Look up its specs against the Gripen-NG, you'll know it matches if not exceeds it in almost all respects.

People like you need education. After a crash-course in common-sense.

Rahul said...

15 years ago it was cutting edge, 10 years ago advance, 5 years ago filler and now bin's waste. Why? Just look around, who you think you will be fighting it with? Aren't they J-20, J-31? Buying 4th gen to fight 5th gen after paying such hefty sum, is it any smart?

Sensible approach calls for cancelling this deal and diverting sanctioned money for meaningful and fulfilling usage like a)putting more money in AMCA program and fast tracking it by all means necessary and possible b) making arrangement for 2 squadrons of PAK-FA ASAP. And for checking shrinking squadron strength, IAF shall use part of that money for buying 2 more squadrons of SU-30MKI and another part percentage of the money shall for making LCA MK-2 program come fast.

Rahul(Kolkata) said...

@Abhiman: I hope u r the same Abhiman of Broadsword. Though I agree with you on the desi vs imported debate and I would like to see a large number of MK II ordered instead of current piecemeal, plz note that MK II is still under development and God knows when it will come out(again, the efficiency of PSU's and DRDO). So it is a little premature to boast of its capabilities....However I am of the strong view that if you are preparing to tackle PAF and PLAAF in the not so distant feature, you have to have some parity in numbers and not only technological superiority. That can be done only by inducting desi indigeneous low cost fighters in large numbers and not by importing high cost ones in large numbers...However in this case, since squadron numbers are depleting first and IAF being forced to fly fighters which even minisucle powers have sent it to their museums(which country in the world still flies the Jaguar/Mig 27?), both should be inducted in large numbers and quickly.

But that cannot be expected from HAL because it is beyond their capabilities. Ideally, for MMRCA, we should have inducted 63 directly from France and 63 should have been manufactured here parallely, i.e., for the time Dassault is supplying Rafales, HAL should have parallely upgraded their knowledge and production line to produce fighters without any delays. But what will happen now is HAL will waste 3-4 years after the first 18 fighters have been delivered to learn how to read and write French and will then start supplying, maybe, in batch of 5 fighters/year.

Joy said...

More like..... Stale wine takes time. When it comes to defense acquisition, we are much better at making stale wine.

Gopal said...

Gotta love Abhimanyu...
"Tejas Mk.2 is equivalent to Gripen NG and F-16 Bk.52!!!"
...which were dropped from MMRCA on performance grounds.
Tejas is going forward, Mk.2 will be acquired, and eventually a Mk.3 will happen.
MMRCA is in addition to that. "Next."

Anyhow, this post is misleading. If Shiv has some other info he should post it, but the reporting on the subject does NOT in any way support that France/Dassault is 'pushing' India to get more planes. It says the topic was brought up during discussions, but doesn't say by who. The increase to MMRCA purchase has long been known to be a serious possibility, so this is nothing new anyways.

The reporting on MMRCA negotiations with Dassault does reveal that Dassault can be construed as a champion of private sector Indian aero-defense companies, pushing back against HAL's unique status. Given that private Indian companies are always promoted by any reform-minded view of Indian defense, to not remark on the fact that Dassault is promoting this sector seems to be missing a serious aspect of the story.

Unknown said...

Scrap the deal

Unknown said...

Scrap the useless deal

CK said...

The french made their original bid for MRCA when sales to Brazil and UAE was seen as certain.

As those seem very distant now, the MRCA has to be increased to create a profit.

Rahul said...

Rafale may seems like quicker option against LCA Mk-2 but it's not the case at all.

Rafale is a foreign fighter, thus will take quite amount of time to get fully operational with IAF. First IAF will have to train a small batch of Pilots and technicians as trainee instructors in France which will then train required batch of Pilots and technicians for the first squadron. But it's not what all required, to be able to successfully use Rafales in any war IAF will have to first understand this jet all through and it will require quite much hours of test flying. Only after completion of this then IAF can move to writing tactical uses for this plane followed by evolution of tactical training syllabus. After this a batch of pilots will undergo detailed training and certification according to prepared documents. This is only when even first batch of Rafale will of any use in IAF.

Compare to it with LCA MK-2 which will be tested bit by bit all through by IAF. Even before this jet is operational IAF will have a batch of instructors (LCA TPs) who having spent so much time on LCA MK-2 will have everything necessary to frame up tactical training manual and its uses.

Written in little but in real world it is lot of time which in LCA MK-2 case will be termed as saved.

So even if Rafale gets into IAF sooner (considering things are taken up at pace unlike always)it might actually end up being operation at the same time LCA MK-2 would be.

Now few points to consider:

a)Both will be inferior by the time they will inter useful service as there will be likes of J-20 and J-31s on other side of the line.

b) 186 Rafales could very well equal to 300 plus LCA MK-2s. Number has its own advantage.

C) LCA MK-2 being indigenous would see faster upgrades at cheaper prices than Rafales.

d) Money spent on LCA MK-2 is money retained in country. This money will help India get rest of the desired infrastructures for establishing full-fledged aeronautical industry, which in turn will help speed up AMCA and to some extent FGFA/ PFMA program. And as a matter of fact PFMA and AMCA are only real options against J-20s and J-31s.

Gopal said...

A larger MMRCA order has ALWAYS been considered, before Rafale was selected or even down-selected (with Typhoon). Reporting says that MoD sees the enlarged order as being a separate contract, not modifying the first. Of course, a successful company providing a product that meets the needs of it's users so well that they need more should presumably make a profit. Otherwise one can buy fighter jets from the Red Cross Society.

The enlarged order does raise the possibility that further jets will be manufactured fully by Dassault in France, and thus be available for faster delivery, which is a serious issue given the state of IAF fleet. The enlarged (/2nd) order of course gives further motivation for Dassault and Thales and Safran to strengthen technology transfer... Although that is only half the issue, as seen by Dassault's promotion of JV with Reliance (not giving everything to HAL automatically), issues on India's side are equally relevant to reception of ToT and ability to follow thru with that. Dassault/etc do not want the program to be held up when HAL cannot fulfill their side of the contract.

Anonymous said...

Well mirages aren 't in production any more. That was the original requirement but somebody had the great idea of sleeping over it till the line was completly shut down and then to launch the multi yr procesd that we now see....while insisting Hal does everything inspite of what 40 years experience has shown.

Anonymous said...

What crap! It has nothing to do with it. Besides other press reports suggests it india who brought up the 63 options. To sell the rafale in all cases industry has to make a profit otherwise no point selling it is there?

Abhiman said...

Mr. Gopal, you're good at making grandiose assumptions. Doesn't work here.

Nobody said Rafale is the "Next" fighter. It is merely a stop-gap arrangement to stem falling squadron levels, as per IAF, MoD etc.

The Tejas Mk-II shall shall be the bulk of the IAF for decades to come. The IAF must accept it, because its specs shall be atleast equal to Gripen-NG and F-16 C/D. Even if the Gripen and F-16 failed to make the MMRCA cut, lets not forget that the Mk-II is an ongoing project. There is ample room for improvement.

Thus, the IAF must make plans to exedite the Tejas Mk-II only, and NOT order additional Rafales or whatever. This is in the interest of the nation's long stated goal of indigenization and national security.

Also, Rahul (Kolkata) its a misconception that the additional Rafales shall be delivered "faster", as there is NO evidence to prove this. Even the negotiations for the first 126 haven't begun yet (and are likely to take ages) forget the contract for the next lot............by that time, the Tejas Mk-II will be flying already !

**************************

Although, Mr. Phillip at BR fora is no patriot, and is a repetitive endorser of Russian interests, I had to agree to one comment of his.

Why did the foreign minister negotiate with Dassault ? Shouldn't it have been Mr. Antony, given the nature of this deal ? Something surely is fishy here.

Anonymous said...

By the time Rafale comes in 2017-18 it would be junk because of snail policy of Indian defence planners.

Anonymous said...



People plz dont behave like those brain washed RETARDS ,

Tejas MK2 no matter HOW good IT IS still a single engine fighter while . TAKING ACCOUNT THE SIZE OF COUNTRY SUPERCUISE ON A TWIN ENGINE AIRCRAFT IS NECESSITY

THE ERA OF HARDCORE AIR RAIDS ARE DONE , MAINLY DO TO ADVANCEMENT IN SAMs AND OTHER ANTI AIRCRAFT TECHNOLOGIES . TODAY AERIAL WARFARE IS ABT SLIPPING IN TO RADAR GAPS , DELIVERING PRECISION MUTIONS AND SLIPPING OUT .

PLUS THE MOST PAF AND PLAAF FIGHTERS ARE MADE OF METAL AND CANNOT SUSTAIN HIGHER AFTERBURNER CYCLES OWING TO INHERENT FLAW IN THE RUSSIAN ENGINES . THESE ENGINES ARE ATLEAST 30 YS OLD IN DESIGN AND RELIABILITY . IN THE SOVIET UNION RELIABILITY WASN'T A ISSUES BECAUSE THEY WOULD CHANGE THEM AFTER 1000 HOURS , SOME THING THE PAF AND PLAAF DOESN'T HAVE THE LUXURY OFF,

LASTLY, MK2 IS NOT ONLY REPLACING THE MIG 21S ITS ALSO REPLACING THE MIRAGE 2000-5 . SO BUILDING MK2 WITH A FOREIGN ENGINE WILL BE A NIGHTMARE .

xxi said...

ONLY WAY TO SAVE HAL IS SPLIT IT UP .

HAL OF TODAY WILL CONTINUE PRODUCING MILITARY RELATED PRODUCTS , spares parts , system management etc etc

WHILE NEW SPLIT DIVISION OF HAL ( A JV WILL A PUBLIC ENTERPRISE ) produces products that have dual use for civilian markets , to reduce the strain,

HAL YOU SEE IS MORE INTERESTED IN KEEPING ITS NAVRANTAN STATUS , HENCE ITS UNABLE TO FINANCIALLY DAMAGING R&D

Rahul said...

Anonymous @ 11:37 PM

Sir, nobody in here retard and nobody here saying Banadars can beat Raptors. Only point and of course valid point is, which one among Rafale and LCA MK-2 is most suitable as filler, especially considering important fact that India has very long international border to go hosting during war?

Think about Sino-Pak aggression and think about length of international border and control lines as existent as today. Now ask yourself which one will come of most use as filler (as both are), a batch 183 Rafales or 300 Mirage-2000 class LCA MK-2s with better electronics than Mirage 2000-9s.

Numbers do count don't they?

And saying LCA MK-2 being nightmere because it's build around a foreign engine is not valid comment because entire Indian air force is build around foreign engine.

Anonymous said...

Every plane needs avionics upgrade approximately 7=10 years and for mirage upgrade Dassault is charging 41 million $ , then i feel for rafale upgrade they would ask 100 million $. Why not develop Tejas Mark 3 with twin engine and with front canards and put it through tests in next 3 years and mass produce it. It is time to say bye bye to rafale , we cannot afford it.

Timbaktoo