Wednesday, March 18, 2015

Next: Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI - The New Indian Dogfight

It's unmissable. The intensifying sense over the last two months that the Su-30 MKI has swooped into M-MRCA airspace. From the politics of it, to the powerplay smack dab in the middle of final negotiations, from the journalism drumming up the new face-off to diplomatic leverage and the criticality of the Indian Air Force's own situation during an increasingly fluid phase of its largest ever procurement. A comprehensive Livefist report that draws on all of these aspects to provide a clear sense of the state of play, and what's turning out to be one of the most interesting phases an eight year procurement effort.

48 comments :

Parthasarathi said...

Sir,
Have read some where that almost 50 % of the Sukhoi 30 MKI's engine failures are due to adulterated fuel ! I am not an expert but probably Sukhoi 30 MKI uses ATF. ( Aviation Turbine Fuel) Now if same fuel is being used in commercial airlines without any problem then why it is creating problem for the IAF. ?
Regards,

Anonymous said...

Good point @Parthasarathi.

Sujith Gopinath said...

Shiv, but how does Sukhoi fit into the 'Medium' category?

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, that's a question for honorable RM.

Jean Luc Picard said...

@Parthasarthi - Its simple. Sukhoi 30 Engines are designed for higher performance, its inner components are more delicate and therefore impurities in the fuel damage the air craft more.

Same will be the case if Racing Bikes when regularly filling up dirty fuel will show a drop in performance. Where as you trusty Bajaj Pulsar will run as it always did.

Anonymous said...

@ Parthasarathi

Bcoz of widely different performance parameters the design of fighter jet engines ( low-bypass ratio) is different than commercial jet engines ( high-bypass ratio). That in turn necessitates different grades of fuel.
That said, if metal chips in jet fuel has been ascertained as the cause of Indian fighter aircrafts falling out of the sky it points to "SYSTEMATIC SABOTAGE" by ground staff in the IAF.
That would not be surprising given the current "COWBOY Culture" in the IAF.
Recent revelations point to the fact that the last crash of a SUKHOI-30 MKI were caused because the two pilots were having a heated altercation while in the air and decided to ditch the plane. Go figure !

Anonymous said...

Even last three MIRAGE 2000 lost crashed because of engine trouble. So its not just the Russian engines failing. Rafales will meet the same fate when they fall in Indian hands !

Lucky said...

Shiv ji, If India gonna decide to go with Sukhoi then why don't buy Su-35 instead of Su-30 MKI. Even China bought some of those for themselves.
But I still feel India should stick to Rafeal since then India airforce will only Russian made fighter jets only (Su-30 MKI, Migs, Pak-FA in future). India lost the opportunity of hard bargain since when India sealed the deal no one bought the Rafael but now egypt bought them.

Anonymous said...

In Astertix comics they say "the sky will fall on our heads".

Looks like here one has to say "aircraft will fall on our heads"

Anonymous said...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03/eurofighter_nao_analysis/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/21/eurofighter_get_out_clause/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/26/f35b_short_landing/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/31/eurofighter_ditched/

The user comments are equally knowledgeable and enlightening as the main article itself.

Anonymous said...

Where is the 'comprehensive livefist report'??

Anonymous said...

SYSTEMATIC SABOTAGE" by ground staff in the IAF......

Well its better than what HAL. ADA & IOB does ...... throws assembled stuff to IAF whose design never changes like that was part of deal

features only change if its profitable for supplier (SaaB, Boeing, LM etc)

SI is mostly Indian but worked poorly because of lowest bid !!

On the name of Desi they are just fooling people/ IAF ......

Jean Luc Picard said...

@Anonymous 4:17

Please spare us from your vile fantasies. It was all Ok till the Bypass Ratio.

Then your fantasies took to ...'flight'. An altercation ? 'Sabotage' by ground crew ?

One does not hear of these things in a regular office, let alone a govt office. And this 'TV show' like drama takes place in the IAF you say.

*thunderous applause*

Jean Luc Picard said...

An Medium class MMRCA is NOT the same as a Heavy Classm Long Range Air Dominance Fighter.

An MMRCA medium class aircraft is NOT the same an an LCA also.

Each Aircraft Specializes in its Role.

LCA - Air Defense and Defensive Patrols. It is the first to respond to enemy air threats. Light, Nimble and comparatively easy to fly. Low combat radius. Operates in larger numbers like a pack of wolves attacking its prey.

This the Tejas Mk2, Mk1 is just HAL thrusting it on IAF.


MMRCA - Air to ground / Air to Air. Air to ground specialist. Medium weight, carries heavy ordnance. Longer endurance. Combat air patrol over battle zone. Precision Bombing, Medium penetration in enemy airspace.
Close air support for troops on the ground.

This is the Rafale.


Long Range Multi Role Air superiority Fighter -
Heavy aircraft, heavy load out. Specializes in deep strategic strikes, Escorts MMRCA and other aircraft in their missions like a air body guard.
Establishes air control over battle zone as it can wipe out anything in the battle airspace. As soon as enemy fighters even come to know that its in the neighborhood they pull out knowing they cannot challenge it.

This is Sukhoi 30MKI.


Each aircraft can drop bombs, launch air to Ground attacks, launch air to air battles, BUT they are specialists in their OWN primary roles.


Im not Pitching for rafale, it can be anything else too. All I am saying is

IAF Needs and LCA, it needs and MMRCA and it needs a LRASFA.

It can be tejas, rafale or sukhoi. it can be anything else too.







Abhiman said...

Jean Luc Packard, how do you decisively know that, "Russian engines are designed for high performance.." ?

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Russian stuff.

Let us all know about your knowledge of Russian military wares, please.

Anonymous said...

Those above links are all written by Lewis Page and are some of the worst journalism on the subject you can find they are far from the truth.

The operators of the Typhoon are extremly happy with their aircraft, its pity India believed the costing of lowest bidder in MMRCA.

But you have made your choice you either have to pay or back away from your decision.

Anonymous said...

First there is no 'medium' category thats IAF mumbo jumbo.

The main diff between the Su n Rafael is that the former is an air dominance fighter while the later is to be used as a deep strike aircraft (better ground mapping radar)

Shiv is it possible for the Su to replace the rafael (with changes i mean)

Anonymous said...

...and now an ex-IAF Air Marshall in the ED dock. Shameless bastards !

http://www.firstpost.com/india/vvip-chopper-deal-enforcement-directorate-questions-ex-iaf-air-marshal-2163155.html

Anonymous said...

To all those talking about Aviation fuel issue. Here is something that should tell you what the exact issue is. (Parrikar said between January 2013 and December 2014 the IAF had recorded technical problems with 35 Saturn AL-31FP engines that power the licence-built Su-30MKIs. The problems were related to faulty bearings and low-pressure oil.

He said metal fatigue caused these bearings, which are incorporated to reduce friction between the fighter's moving parts, to chip or fragment and the resulting particles contaminated the oil flow.)

Anonymous said...

So where is this report? i dont see any links

Anonymous said...

@Parthasarathi, Aviation Turbine Fuel (ATF) is a category that covers huge range of jet fuels.
It have so many subcategories and these subcategories have so many types and standards.

Military organizations around the world use a different classification system of JP (for "Jet Propellant") numbers. Some are almost identical to their civilian counterparts and differ only by the amounts of a few additives; Jet A-1 is similar to JP-8, Jet B is similar to JP-4. Other military fuels are highly specialized products and are developed for very specific applications.

Jet fuels are sometimes also classified as kerosene or naphtha-type. Kerosene-type fuels include Jet A, Jet A-1, JP-5 and JP-8. Naphtha-type jet fuels, sometimes referred to as "wide-cut" jet fuel, include Jet B and JP-4.

There are endless variants of ATF

Anonymous said...

Would love to read this report, but where is it, don't see any links

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 4:17, 4:18 and other crap posts et al... ah.. and heeere's Abhimaan the DRDO dodo again..

a) Dear Armchair Analysts..first learn about aviation, aerodynamics etc
b) Then shut the f**k up..cause youse all DUMBASS!


e.g. Rafale (15-20T) = Su-30 (35 +T)
2) Bearing failures because of ATF!! Sigh...
3) Cowboy culture??????? Ground Crew Sabotage? @ Parthasarthy.." i read somewhere that.." Seriously.. is this how u ascertain facts and make and influence opinions?
4) Heated Altercations..so decided to ditch aircraft?..Ah YOU were in the cockpit with them? or were deciphering the Black Box? or were the enquiry member?

Spreading Malicious gossip are we?

@ Anonymous 8:11 " There's no Medium category" Really?? ... We should perhaps hire you as our consultant

Anonymous said...

su30/su35/t50 are heavy class, the rafale /eurofighter/f18 is medium class, the russian equivalent medium class is the mig35, first one ejected from mmrca, to many issues,
comparison between su30 and rafale is idiotic, it is like to compare tejas to F22, they are not made for the same rule and mission, picard answer already on it.

Anonymous said...

What is the need of having Airforce ?

When we can purchase fighter aircraft then why not pilots ?? & better ground crew ??

anyway HAL assembles stuff in India so why not outsource all the way and keep IAS staff to monitor (The Steel Frame of India)

Having huge IAF personnel is waste of India is waste of money.

Anyway white pilots are better than these brown monkey's who only knows how to copy ?? west - No new contribution to air technology by IAF or Indian pilots so far !!

Anonymous said...

I mean I can understand army has 5000 sacrifices in last 2 decades in J&K and East

Navy has better experiance in Sea & in somehow by luck in better shape than China !

but Airforce ? it slain its 100's of pilot in Mig 21 crash for no reason other than than leadership was not able to make a case !!

Even now they have not learned lesson and fighting on which "New Dress" to buy & how it will look better on that particular occasion ??

Comeon IAF .... do something on your own .... you are an institution in democracy, develop your own capability

going to US war college and having training to know what advantages F35 bring so that you can buy it, that 20 other AFRICAN nations also doing it ...........!!

MYGOD !!

Abhiman said...

Its hilarious to see Mr. Jean Luc Packard lecturing about "LCA = Point defence", "MRCA = strike" etc. How many times have we gone through the same old discussions !

The poor guy is new here. And yet he's indolent enough not to read up and instead, teach the others a thing or two.

Not to mention a neatly pulled endorsement of Russian engines, which make his intent and/or origins suspect.

He only has the moral candle of being a loyal defender of the armed forces. His ignorance and defiance all stem from that.

Mr. Packard, the next time you give a silly, pointed lecture on the armed forces' acquisition plans, you may get a footnote as a response. And the next time you give a holier-than-though pontification on not criticizing the armed forces, rest assured you won't even beget a response.

Anonymous said...

It is on Janes Defence.

Anonymous said...

@ Shiv : How is it that assholes like anonymous@4:17, 4:35 can post shit and get away, while rebuttal posts which are eminently professional and reasonable are not permitted by the Mod?


' something stinks...in the state of Denmark

Jean Luc Picard said...

@abhiman- Please read my comment again.

the excerpt reads " Sukhoi 30 Engines are designed for higher performance" and not

"Russian engines are designed for high performance.." as you have incorrectly quoted me.

Jet engines ARE designed for higher performance than your average airliner.

Jean Luc Picard said...

@anonymous 8:11 AM -

So by your logic an F15E strike eagle is the same as an F16 ?!!! Hmm wonder why they have other Fighter aircraft in their inventory ? Wonder why F15s are not used against ISIS but F16s are??

What the rafale or an MMRCA is going to replace In the IAF are Mig 27, SEPECAT Jaguar and the Mirage as they are on ther final upgrades now.

All Major Air Forces have a Heavy, Medium and a Light Class of fighter/Fighter-bombers.

You dont want to use your air superiority Fighters getting shot down during Air Ground Missions and open the airspace to heavy air superiority fighters who then will own your airspace.


@Anonymous 09:00- aah so are you a Judge of the Judiciary of India ? or are you God who sees all the truth, which we mere mortals cannot ?

Dear Wise One,

I dont know which country you belong to, but here in India a suspect is Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

A questioning by law enforcement agencies does not make you a criminal nor is it even an indictment nor is it even a accusation by the questioning agency.

If I were a policeman accusing you of a murder, does that mean you are already one ? If I were a policeman conducting an investigation of a rape case in your neighborhood does that make you guilty ?

This is India my friend. There are laws here. If he is Innocent, you, who is probably quarter of man he is , have insulted an Air Force Officer who has spent perhaps more than your age in the service of the nation. Just so that thankless people like you can live and breed like rats and then hurl accusations.

ever spent a day in military service ?

Anonymous said...

Q Abhiman 8:24 ..
Packard?? Picard... ( understand the difference? even if you cant read/understand/google..you have to post your opinion :-) )

Sooooo.. What IS the LCA for then?? Please to enlighten poor savage ..Mastah!!Teach Me....

And Pray Which engines are going to power your AMCA abhiman? Kaveri? LoL or your verbal farts?

Going by your friggin LCA timeline it will be in 2050 with copied 2015 tech and STATE OF THE ART 1990s Tech ( Thats all you are good for anyway...Cntrl C, and Cntrl V .)

And while you are at it learning aviation from video games and movies and Tom Clancy.. Lay-Off and let the big boys play.

Abhiman said...

The Su-30 MKI + Tejas combo are all that the IAF needs. The MMRCA just doesn't fit anywhere.

For deep strike missions into Pakistan or Tibet, Su-30 MKI is more than sufficient. The Tejas Mk.1 can escort a Su-30 MKI into such missions deep into enemy territory (about 200+ kms). A Tejas Mk.2 will do even better.

For air-superiority over Indian and enemy airspace, the Tejas can take on any contemporary fighter jet that PAF or PLAAF can throw at us, such as the JF-17, F-16 C or the J-10. It can be assisted by big brother Su-30, what with its radar, maneuverability and stuff.

For the larger Su-27 /30 and J-11 fighters of the PLAAF, the Su-30 MKI will be sufficient. Note its Bars radar and other avionics are a notch ahead of the Chinese Flanker variants.

The J-20 of the PLAAF is still under development, and should find a match with the next generation AMCA.

__________________

Let's abandon the PAK-FA. Let's channelize our efforts in the AMCA.

Parthasarathi said...

@Anonymous 1:23 PM : I am not trying to influence anybody ! I have just raised a question. If you want to answer then please answer, otherwise don't accuse.

Anyway FYI. it was said by Honorable Minister himself.

Quote :
In all, there are 69 instances of engine failure in the last four years, the minister said. Inquiries by the Air Force have revealed that in as many as 33 instances, the engines failed because of impure fuel, in another 11 cases, the problem was caused by excessive vibration and in eight others, engine failures were reported because of low pressure in the lubricant tanks, the Defence Minister said. About five SU-30 MKI have crashed since 2009.
Unquote :

So please withdraw your comment that I am trying to influence somebody.

Regards.

Jean Luc Picard said...

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This is my final post on this Article. I did not want to engage in a verbal volley but like most arguments it is about to head towards one.

In my last comment I intend to expose Abhiman's complete lack of Basic (im no expert) understanding of Air Operations.(for his own good)

Abhiman mentioned, "For deep strike missions into Pakistan or Tibet, Su-30 MKI is more than sufficient. The Tejas Mk.1 can escort a Su-30 MKI into such missions deep into enemy territory (about 200+ kms). A Tejas Mk.2 will do even better."

My question -

1. Deep strike Missions are called Deep Strikes simply because they are away from the "immediate area of battle". Such Strikes will not be routine and will be based on strategic targets some time located well away from battle. Its destruction is to destroy/diminish enemy's war capacity or to crush his morale.

According to Abhiman, Tejas with Mk1 and later Mk2 ( Combat Radius - 200+ Kms) will escort Sukhoi-30 MKI. (Combat Radius - 1500+ KM with out refueling)

MY Friend ABHIMAN, Do you mean fighter escorts will only be given upto 200KM ?

2 Or are you so poor in Geography that you dont realise 200KM+ is Delhi to Agra ? 200 KM would not even be the complete area of immediate battle. Even Trucks have more range than that.

This is what happens when you read Tom Clancy, play video games or form impressions based on knee Jerk media reactions and think of your self as a know it all.

I admire your passion

Your knowledge needs an repair and upgrade ( Everyone needs one a periodic basis actually :-) ).

BUT, your attitude and humility towards Indian Armed Forces needs a complete redesign and a refit.

Jai Hind !

Anonymous said...

MANORAMA report on Pune Sukhoi crash ...
"Part of the blame, indeed, is on human error. Or that is what the makers of the plane would swear, as in the case of the Pune crash. The Russians say that two pilots had a cockpit quarrel in which the senior called the junior “good for nothing” and the latter, a rookie, lost his nerve. Minutes later, the two were thrown off with their seats! The IAF is still tight-lipped about what actually happened. Such 'criminal errors', however, are rare. Most human errors are those of judgment which can happen while flying at twice the speed of sound"

Here's the link :

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/theWeekContent.do?contentId=18553475&programId=1073755753&tabId=6&BV_ID=@@@&categoryId=-225861

Anonymous said...

Manorama reports on cause of Sukhoi crash near Pune :

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/theWeekContent.do?contentId=18553475&programId=1073755753&tabId=6&BV_ID=@@@&categoryId=-225861

Abhiman said...

Mr. Pickard, I've been posting for some years on Livefist and Broadsword. Merely speaking from the moral perch of being a loyal advocate of the armed forces doesn't cut it. We always run into a few like you sometimes.

The armed forces can and must be criticized. They're not holy cows. Its my tax money that they spend, and they cannot waste it just like that.

Tejas has different combat radii ranging from 350 kms to 700 kms (per Wikipedia, a credible enough source over time). It depends on the weapons loadout. So, these are the distances it can go inside enemy territory, deliver its payload along the way, evade enemy fire, and return.

Although 200 kms may not be a big distance, it is indeed very deep, considering enemy's air-superiority fighters and SAM networks you'll have to encounter. Just try breaching Pakistan's border and they'll scramble their JF-17s and F-16s to finish you off. Don't expect Su-30s to fly all the way to Hong Kong and back just because its range permits it to ! They won't return, rest assured.

The Tejas can escort Su-30s for their surgical strikes. It has a decent weapons load-out, similar to Mirage-2000, MiG-29 or Gripen C/D. It has an omni-role ability, meaning it can carry a role-specific payload, like 6 AAMs for an air-superiority mision, multiple PGMs for a strike mission, or a mix of both.

And this is the Mk.1 I'm speaking of. The Mk.2 is many notches ahead.


Over Indian airspace, it can take on J-10s, F-16, JF-17s, Su-27/30, J-11 with assistance from Su-30 MKI and AWACs. Its nimble, very agile and can establish air-superiority over Indian airspace.
_______________

Let's abandon the PAK-FA. Let's concentrate on the AMCA.

Raj said...

The irony in the Indian Air Force is actually beyond imagination.

1. It has a reputed heavy fighter in Su-30MKI fleet. Another air superiority stealth fighter may come in the form of T-50.

2. Its MMRCA fleet made of MiG-29 UPG, Jaguar and Mirage 2000 are good enough for next 20-25 years. Their replacement would be required in 2035-40 framework for which AMCA development is undergoing.

3. It horribly lacks a single engine light fighter because its MiG-21s are going to be phased out very soon.

Instead of replacing these light weight single engine fighters immediately with LCA MK-1 and LCA Mk-2, IAF is desperate to buy Rafale which is a dual engine medium fighter of 4++ generation.

Can someone ask these Air Marshals, why are they replacing a light fighter with a medium one? What is driving these people?? Why will anyone make his air force top heavy, full of dual engine fuel guzzlers when its the light fighters which do the heavy lifting during peacetime/wartime?

Its a senseless waste of trillions of rupees, all public money. What a horror !!!!

Anonymous said...

@Shiv
when Abhiman says that LCA can escort Su-30, such asinine comments are published. Raj at5:15 wonders why the IAF is not buying LCA Mk2 "IMMEDIATELY" ..Why dont you tell him why?
Raj : the LCA Mk2 unfortunately doesnt exist yet.
Abhiman, Basanti doesnt escort Gabbar

Shiv, Please allow some sane comments to be published and not such a**holes all the time

Anonymous said...

Incidentally the (imaginary as of now) Tejas Mk2 will cost almost as much (>350 Cr) as a Su-30. So why do we need a Tejas mk2 which is far too inferior even to the age old F-16, Mirage 2000, and Mig-29?
Why do we support third rate DRDO with the worst drop-outs from all the "Failed to become engineer Doctor etc variety". Their "Scientists" are 50% variety BSc/MSc lot, which is why an aircraft designer from ADA hasnt even seen an aircraft...@ Abhiman..especially for you

Anonymous said...

@Parthasarthy 2:38
"Accidents caused due to Impure fuel" are not Bearing failures. They are flameouts, Failure of Combustion Chamber components etc.

Lubrication failures cause seizures and are very rare.

Bearing failures due to metal fatigue etc are different and generally do not cause loss of an aircraft. THESE ARE NOT (R) NOR RELATED TO ATF.

Therefore..Dear Mr "I read somewhere..Parthasarthy"

Please withdraw your half baked comments. Also apologise about the IAF Cowboy remark...and Fuck Off and Dont Peddle Shit like "Sabotage"

You and Abhiman are that divine category of "Dont know that they dont Know"

Anonymous said...

Bow: Can't laugh enough reading abhiman's comments. LCA escorting flankers in strike. Its like inzamum standing as runner for AB Devilliers. What utter lack of knowledge.

Anonymous said...

@ Abhiman: " The Armed Forces Can and Must be criticised..."
Please...Go Ahead..(Armchair cricketers have been screwing our Cricket Team for Ages. Opinions are like a**holes..everyone has one, Lets hear yours too)

Should we now Send ALL LCAs to escort Su-30s and also lend them to escort F-22 also?

Lets immediately suspend ALL procurements proposed (since the whole world except Abhiman is corrupt)...and Abhimaan with his fleet will IMMEDIATELY step in and Defeat Porkistan and Cheeni Kums ( After all he is the Sage Air Strategist of the 21st century)

@ Master Raj the Great:....
Lets hear Why we are not so gung ho and great...

Raj sez
"Can someone ask these Air Marshals, why are they replacing a light fighter with a medium one? What is driving these people?? Why will anyone make his air force top heavy, full of dual engine fuel guzzlers when its the light fighters which do the heavy lifting during peacetime/wartime?

Its a senseless waste of trillions of rupees, all public money. What a horror !!!!"

A: Because we are all mad crazy and corrupt and you (All Hail the wise Lord) are our only aviation guru and enlightened soul who will take us to nirvana with a 200 Km ROA fighter (Tejas) to replace a 900 Km ROA aircraft.

Because he keeps only one size spanners in his toolbox, has only one size plates and his entire family uses only one size of clothes

(And we must be incompetent and f***king crazy and corrupt as well)

You f***king patronising sermonising b***ard, Question, dont slander.
Suggest dont preach
Do some research, learn the facts, understand who is to blame for the procurements, delays, national wastage.
Learn who approves and signs ALL INDIAN DEFENCE PROCUREMENTS

Find out exactly how many years and how many hundred signatures of all and sundry decorate each file on its tortuous path.

No facts, No logic, No knowledge..All Opinions, pre-judged impressions -- is a Kangaroo court outlook. Doesnt work for me pal.

And as an endnote pal..Can YOU explain why on earth should we ever buy a lightweight fighter in todays geo-political realities??

A: We dont need it, its a maintenance nightmare, operationally inefficient and in-effective, too short a range, non-manoevrable especially with load, hasnt met most requirements of an indigenous fighter project. The Radar,Engine Weapons,and 70% of the insides are all imported components. Its costs more than a Mirage and Jaguar. The projected Mk 2 will be as costly as a Su-30.

The (Abhiman) lobby which played out this 10000 cr devlopment game from 1979 till date and are now crying because their bluffs are being called

Take a sobering reality check. Don't believe everything you read and see.
Its good but a dud. Maybe the next one will be better. My great grand children will see it

Restore said...

@Anon 12.40 AM,

If you represent Indian Air Force and your views are any similar to other officers in IAF, I see a very very dark future for you all.

No wonder scholars like Robert Farley are now calling for disbandment of US Air Force. Because the land portion of attack can be taken care of by Army Aviation, if properly equipped with CAS, MRCA and Heavy fighters. The naval portion is already being taken care of by the Navy all over the world. Long range interdiction can be done by long range cruise and ballistic missiles. They are not only cheaper and efficient but also precise and deadly.

So understand this fact, if things go like this, the days are not very far when this entire Air Force edifice will be disbanded and its assets divided into Army and Navy.As it is, their maintenance record is much better than yours.

About purchase of aircraft, I would give you an example. When you go to buy your car, you go by your requirement and pocket depth. You think about how much you can spend and what functions you want the car to do and according to that you buy the best value car.

In no case, you ask the F*ing driver what is his opinion on it. The driver would invariably like to buy Ferrari but the owner knows that driving from NFC to Okhla everyday can be done even in a nice Honda City so there is no point in buying a Ferrari for it.

Its similar for buying fighter aircrafts. It is MoD and LTIPP Purchase committee's job to buy the best aircraft for the best value. All these "Air Drivers" need not poke their nose into it. Wanna drive - good. Don't want to drive - F*** off.

Anonymous said...

@ Moron Restore 4:19
I love you Trolls. really. WTF? someone who doesnt have the knowledge commenting! What is with u ppl? what makes u instant experts and critics?

How does stupid over simplification like the car example even compute???

A) Are we not the owner as well? Don't we pay Taxes you ass? So what exactly are you doing extra, that makes your opinion the "Gold Standard" ? WE PUT OUR LIVES ON THE LINE..... Your opinion if implemented, will kill us and not the babu, the politician or sadly you or your kinsmen
( What a pity really!! ..everyone should face the consequences of their own decisions and not those of morons like you)
. And as a small aside, it may well cause you to lose the war as well.

Truly Dark Days for us if I lose my life/War because moron Restore ( what a stupid handle??) has A PERCEPTION (not based on facts)

b) Are you the only conscientious fellow here? What vested interests make you support inadequate equipment? Are you a Honda Shareholder that you want the City?
That too A honda city with a Nano engine which starts 20% of the time carries 1.3 ppl versus the claimed 4
and has not passed driveability tests and can reach 22 kmph top speed etc...and is being purchased only because ..... it has to be. And the Factory can make only 1/8 th the numbers they claim for three times the price? You must be receiving bribes from Honda to have an opinion like that.

c) So u think changing the color of drivers uniform will make the problem go away? or change his considered expert evaluation and opinion because your ego cannot digest the truth?

d) heard of "Domain knowledge" ? and Experience? Which you dont have? LoL that little thing never stops the Trolls. :-)

e) in any case u moron, learning military aviation ( and becoming really really good at it) is a lifetime of effort, learning to plan and use it effectively in large numbers and against violent opponents is another lifetime of experience. Dont belittle what you cannot or chose not to do. ( and wont do too...dont have the spunk to give a lifetime of service to the "Lowest Bidder" Equipment.

f) Just curious now...How much stuff for own use do you personally buy from the Lowest Bidder, least required quality? Do you buy cars minus airbags? Drive without helmets (because they cost money? Buy a 1500 Rs phone (cause it does the job) dont Tell me ..cause i really dont even want to know


----- Regards from F**king Driver
PS: have you even remoteTEST knowledge of what is an LTIPP and who makes it? doesn't appear so

PPS: Don't wanna drive..Am f**king off as so kindly advised by you.

PPPS: " Air Drivers??" Really? So your local truck driver=your hired driver= You driving = Formula 1 drivers?

PPPPS: LoL :-) was nice trolling u

PPPPPPS: Same to You

PPPPPPPPS : Get the msg? No I think, ppl like u rarely do

Robert Farley....really??? LoL

Anonymous said...

Dont worry folks. The Rafale will never be bought. Wait and See.

Lets buy all UAVs. No Drivers no problems.

Anonymous said...

Arre yaar live fist has unfortunately turned into a lobby lounge for inadept babus n drdo losers.. The iaf guy will obviously get pissed if u call him a driver.. R u friggin out of ur mind.. Its because of babus/ babu lovers like u that the armed forces r in such a mess. Depleting strength no replacement !! Shame on u!! Its common knowledge that babus r at constant loggerheads with men in uniform!! Denying them housing,pension and now even critical equipment seems to be some sort of a habit.. Their only source of enjoyment is like what the medical fraternity calls 'displacement'.. They get trampled upon by politicians who arnt half as educated as them n in turn they derive some twisted pleasure from bullying faujis.. Im not even iaf n im pissed by these comments!!
Total agreement with the iaf chap on lowest bidder when national security is involved.
Y do all leaders take joy rides n publicity stunts in the su 30.. Iaf should refuse any such visits unless the joy ride is in a mig 21.. Lets see them expressing solidarity with the forces when they ride the flying coffins..
Hal has failed the nation .. Its unproductive work atmosphere is the stuff of legend .. See its fair to give equal weight to hal n babu opinion as compared to fauji if they r equal stakeholders in the risk n consequence.. As with the forces who pay with life heavy liabilities ought to be imposed on these organisations as well if their opinion is to be even considered.. Dont do any work ,sink into the lowest pit of non performance and just shoot down proposals ..nt good enf pal.. Keep going the fauji bashing way and the general public will soon figure u out.. U would like to think so but we the ppl r not fools u see..