Monday, March 23, 2015

Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI - The New Indian Dogfight

Intensifying since the turn of the new year, you couldn't possibly have missed the roar of AL-31s in all talk of India's turbulent final dash for a Rafale jet deal. It's unmissable. The fact that the Su-30 MKI was pushed into the M-MRCA conversation by none other than India's defence minister ensured the notion strengthened quickly, unscathed by intrigue and rumours. And then, it exploded.

On the evening of December 30, Manohar Parrikar suggested to reporters that 'additional Su-30s' could save the IAF in the event that 'complications'-ridden negotiations with Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale fighters didn't end in a purchase contract. The seed of the idea came from the proverbial horse's mouth, and not South Block hearsay. And that gave it furious immediacy.

The suggestion caught the Indian Air Force completely off guard, flying as it did in the face of an unusually defiant stance the IAF leadership had decided on in 2013 about there being 'no Plan-B' in the event that the Rafale failed. But this time, the IAF resisted an immediate rebuttal. This was, after all, the Defence Minister who had weighed in. But what truly unnerved the IAF -- and several planners within the MoD -- was that Parrikar had gone out on a limb less than two months after being handpicked as Defence Minister. His specific comments on the negotiations revealed three things: One, that he'd hit the ground running and was fully abreast of the negotiations and where they were stuck. Two, that he was fully willing to question for the first time the presupposition both within the MoD (and especially the IAF) that while there was likely to be extended turbulence, a deal would finally be signed. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it showed that Parrikar has been empowered by the PM to lead decision-making on a deal that's so large that it has everything to do with the political leadership, and little to do with the actual act of hardware procurement.

As January wore on, there was blood in the water that couldn't be ignored. If Parrikar's pre-New Year comment sparked a fire, he pretty much flung a barrel of gasoline at it two weeks later when in an interview to Karan Thapar on Headlines Today, he said in response to a question on the possibility of the Rafale deal not working out, "Sukhoi-30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi-30, make it more capable."

The latch-on was instantaneous. Hours after Parrikar's comments were broadcast, Russian think-tank the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade declared on Jan 13 that India's potential choice of more Russian Su-30 MKIs instead of Rafales would be "advantageous to the country’s air force in terms of cost, tactical and technical characteristics of the plane and a series of other reasons". For good measure, the Russians stoked France's controversial hold-back of Mistral-class amphibious ships intended for Russia. The example had been broached before, but Moscow really ground it in this time.

A month later, Livefist learns, a concerted effort was made by Russia's mission & trade office in New Delhi to pull India's External Affairs Ministry into the conversation. The specifics of what was on the table isn't fully known even now. A curious Russian media report quotes junior minister in the MEA, former Army chief, Gen (Retd.) Vijay Kumar Singh as having said that the Su-30 was cheaper than the Rafale and more reliable. He was quoted nowhere else.

In February, with the Su-30 vs. Rafale debate stewing for nearly two months to the deep consternation of Dassault, IAF chief Arup Raha was fairly buttonholed at Yelahanka into saying, "There's M-MRCA and there's Sukhoi-30. The requirements are slightly different. And they have their own capabilities. They compliment each other but do not replace each other." This was a statement that practically subverted what the Defence Minister had suggested. Twice. Parrikar ignored the comment. It was explained away as a technically accurate clarification by the Chief of Air Staff.

At the air show, where the IAF chief made that comment, the spotlight also shined conspicuously on friction between Sukhoi and the IAF over the unexplained seat ejection that caused the type's fifth accident last year. The Russians weren't happy. And the IAF saw Sukhoi's remarks to journalists as hostile and out of line. "When we are wrong, we will say so. When the Indian pilot is wrong, the IAF should not be shy to admit that," an irritated UAC officer told me at the time. While the IAF chief kept his cool about Sukhoi's comments, in private IAF officers fumed at what they saw as temerity.

Dassault Aviation and the French government were always prepared for rumblings of power-play and suggestive pressure from the Indian MoD, but the speed at which the conversation heated up caught all involved by surprise. For Dassault, it would now be fighting on two fronts -- one, with a confident new government that promised quick action either way. And two, with the Russians, India's largest suppliers of military hardware, who were practically invited into the tense last lap of the M-MRCA fight by the Indian MoD. The French Defence Minister, who visited Delhi last month for the second time in less than eight weeks, didn't bring up the Su-30 MKI. The French didn't have a direct play, political or otherwise. It was felt that things were too delicate at the negotiations table to poke at something that was, as Paris understood it, a clear message that India wasn't going to budge on final sticking points. Told that it needed to work on a joint liability matrix with HAL for the license build programme, Dassault decided to put its head down and bide its time.

Of course, by this time, plenty of journalism in India, Russia and France -- and the furious online military aviation subculture -- had gotten the Rafale and Su-30 to dogfight on paper. Social media saw much of this shared enthusiastically by stakeholders on both sides. But it wasn't until March that France's patience finally cashed out. It was a veritable neutron bomb on the Su-30's two month supercruise through arms & diplomatic circles, and even the French couldn't have expected such a breather: a statement by Defence Minister Parrikar himself that the Su-30 fleet had serious problems. It was by no means a body blow to the Su-30 MKI fleet -- the Minister clarified that things were looking up -- but it gave Dassault the break it needed after two seriously sleepless months.

And the French government finally got some play in what was clearly an ambush the Russians were fully prepared to capitalise on. And will.

Here's the latest state of play:
  1. Russia smells real blood. Through their Trade Office and the Embassy, an existing conversation about additional numbers of the Su-30 & upgrades of earlier units has been re-energised with the additional sweetener of a markedly higher degree of local content and sourcing on any additional Su-30s India may choose to license build in Nashik.
  2. Livefist can confirm that Russia has also offered India the Su-35 'Super Flanker', but kept the details open. The type is officially on the table now with Russia inviting India to help configure a Su-35 'MKI'.
  3. Russia is attempting to contain the twin damage of (a) information about engine trouble and fleet availability. Rosoboronexport has begun discussions with the IAF and HAL. And (b) the issue of the mysterious seat ejections. Both sides have decided to sort out the issue cordially and in private. It doesn't want to lose the momentum it received from the initial suggestion that more Su-30s could cushion the potential collapse of the M-MRCA.
  4. Dassault and HAL are currently working at a furious pace to have something to show to the MoD in the next one week, though it remains unlikely that there will be anything for Prime Minister Modi & President Hollande to announce next week in Paris.
  5. On March 18, Defence Minister Parrikar said, "They have to tell us whether they can do it or not. Can’t keep waiting."

76 comments :

Anonymous said...

While most air forces are happy with just one or two types of jets the IAF needs light, medium and heavy types one each from western and eastern blocks and another of the mandatory indigenous type.
It almost feels like IAF had to invent a "Medium" type to justify MMRCA.

Single type operating AFs-
France: Mirage 2000(being replaced by Rafael)
Sweeden: Jas 39 Grippin
Two type(heavy/light) AFs-
USAF: F15/F16 to be replaced by F20/F35
Russia: Su27/Mig 29

Anonymous said...

Russian offers are always cheap on paper and when the contracts are inked the prices SOAR.

Anonymous said...

About 1.5 engine related problems per month... That's really far over par under current reliability standards.

If M2000, single engined, was at this level of confidence there would be none remaining.

Krish said...

Wonderful account of the issue. When a powerful and honest government comes to power, none of French underhand dealings will work.

Stick to RFP and original price and transfer TOT, otherwise .. BBYYE.

Anonymous said...

IAF has converted itself to Heavy fighter Air Force, yet wants to retain the number of squadrons.
Even the richest airforce in the world USAF has F-15 & lighter F-16, just 2 main varieties. Both produced in large numbers.
US navy operates just one type : F-18.
Now US has F-22 & F-35.
Last 10 years gave seen progress in stand off weapons and drones , why would anyone spend on so many types of fighters.
We should have heavy SU-30 and light LCA,
The huge maintenance bill I am sure not been factored in.

Anonymous said...

The IAF has met its match ...in the current Defence Minister. Bull shitting and passing the buck around won't work any more. Buckle up or be prepared to be ejected !

Why are the French so afraid to speak up in the middle of this maelstrom ? Perhaps because they know fully well that the Russians can tear into every piece of logic that they can bring forth as to why the Rafale is better suited than Sukhois ( and I am not talking 'bout the 30MKIS here) when it comes to capabilities. Dassault has cried itself hoarse for well over a decade about the so called "Omni-role" capabilities of the Rafale. The verdict in Military aviation history has been quite black and white about that in that - platforms that claim to do many things more often than not perform neither well enough to warrant an investment. The Rafale is no different. Yes, its successes have been brandished quite a bit in the media with the air campaigs in Libya and Mali but India's enemies are in quite a different league and sorry but thank you, it's hardly a resounding validation of the capabilities of the super expensive Rafales !

Further, I would like to highlight the comments of the UAC representative whom Shiv qoutes as saying "When we are wrong, we will say so. When the Indian pilot is wrong, the IAF should not be shy to admit that". My question is what is the IAF hiding ? Time for the skeletons to come tumbling out perhaps ?

Anonymous said...

The Rafale is an awsome plane, and comes in several different variations. -not only one type

the russians have good planes, but the su30...?
the Pak Fa will probably be good, in about 6-10 years, when its finished...

the su 35, sure! but its still not mass produced..

if you (india) is going to choose Russian planes
-then WHY ON EARTH is nobody talking about the su 34 Fullback???

in my "book", that is the only Russian plane that directly would compete with the Rafale omnirole version.

if you wont consider this plane, then Rafale seems more of a safe bet.... eventhough it costs more

Anonymous said...

Sorry if Rafale has not seen any action like the 1967 Six Days war ... Thankfully wars opposing large fleets of jets are pretty uncommon nowadays.

SK said...

@Anon 8.49PM

Actually, there is nothing to hide anymore as all skeletons of IAF have come stumbling out.

The first Su-30MKI crash occurred when Wing Commander Munje and his co-pilot were flying. The co-pilot was killed unfortunately so the ejection switch was blamed. In the last crash, again Wing Commander Munje was involved but this time his co-pilot survived. Turns out that Munje and his co-pilot had heated exchanges in the cockpit so they decided to ditch the plane. This is what Russians say is cowboy flying. Its all over the place now after Manorama Online reported this week.

Seems that the Imported Air Force has some serious soul searching to do. Especially when even after four levels of training on four different aircraft, this Air Force is crashing one squadron plus aircraft every three years, including even rarely crashed ones like C-130J. After five or so accidents, Indian Navy chief decided to hang his boots. Each fighter aircraft costs more than the cost of a corvette/OPV. So what about Air Force Chief's accountability?

Anonymous said...

It was hot topic in late 80's in US but what is the purpose of such debate right now ??

Building capability is more important than which color dress should I buy today !!

and that is what its been reduced to !!

shankar subramanian said...

Guys go with RUSSIAN SUPER SUKHOI SU 35 FLANKERS 252 I N NUMBER.....
RATHER THAN EXPENSIVE RAFAEL WHICH IS ONE AND ONLE USED BY FRENCH ARMY.........
RUSSIA IS IN ECONOMIC RECESSION AND IS ISOLATED BY WEST............IF WE BARGAIN FOR LOWER PRICES SURE ....PUTIN WILL AGREE TO GIVE US LATEST TECHNOLOGIES .......WHICH EVEN RUSSIA IS AFFRAID TO SHARE WITH CHINA........
RUSSIA IS OUR LONG TERM FRIEND........
BETTER BY 252 SUKHOI SU 35 BRATHER THAN EXPENSIVE TURKEYS LIKE RAFEL WHICH HAVE BEEN ONLY USED BY FRANCE ARMY

Anonymous said...

Just buy 100 su 35s, and speed up the development of AMCA. You'll get both, medium and heavy. Everyone will get what they want. Plus the Su-35 is pretty awesome, it beats the Rafale in almost every way. Rafale is no slouch but the flanker is just insane

Anonymous said...

If true, this may be exactly what the UAC representative has referred to over and over as "COWBOY" IAF pilots :

"The first Su-30MKI crash occurred when Wing Commander Munje and his co-pilot were flying.
The co-pilot was killed unfortunately so the ejection switch was blamed. In the last crash, again Wing
Commander Munje was involved but this time his co-pilot survived. Turns out that Munje and his co-pilot
had heated exchanges in the cockpit so they decided to ditch the plane. This is what Russians say is cowboy flying".
Its all over the place now after Manorama Online reported this week.

Anonymous said...

@shankar

Pls define whats the real capabilities of Su35?

Are the so called capabilities war proved in any type of battles even if the so called countries used against had different capabilities theen perhaps our neighbourhood.

Which technologies are you referring which can be bargained and Putin/Russia will agree to see bcz of recession?

How russia is afraid of China for selling tech where large energy deals are already in place among them which is more like cohabitation and inter dependence. On top Su35 is already being procured by China so whats the guarantee they will not reverse engineer it? It means India pays full price and China pays nothing for TOT and yet develop a craft better than Su35 in a short period of time..

Expensive turkey like Rafel.. first its Rafale.. Rafael is an Israeli comapany for god sake.. expensive turkey? how do you define expensive? How many of you are even aware whats the cost of operating a Su30MKI? it is idiotic and blind folks like your goodself who looks at 60Mn$ cost of Su30MKI and think thats the best and so Su35 is cheaper too.. For god sake, IAF/MOD is caluclating Lifetime cost of operation for a good reason to avoid Su30 MKI fiasco...

@Anonymous
Su34 is absoluetly having limited A2A capability and is a dedicated bomber. Its not even comparable to Su30 MKI so leave rafale out. Its technology is closer to 4Gen and in no manner even if u upgrade it substantially to 4.5Gen tech, its gonna fit into IAF doctrine. Su34 is not comparable to rafale or it cannot be its replacement. Heck it cant even replace Jags and Mirages..

All of you blind people who only get swayed with views like Bharat Karnad need to open your eyes and see the reality. It is bcz off such views that media is so easily bought by vested interests and then systematic campaigns are run to discredit and tarnish a opinion which is for the good of the country.

All those who says rafale is useless and costly and not needed, tell me what can you keyboard warriors do when Pakistani flags are hoisted in J&K by separatists.. Nothing.. the world laughs at us for our ignorance.. for lack of actual realistic opinions..

Who am i? I am a ex-IAF. I dont get colored by such yellow journalism. If youth is like whats indicated across different media forums with lack of any substance than even God cant save this country.

Shubham said...

I am going to scream the next time some one spells Rafale as R-A-F-A-E-L..

Anonymous said...

There is a bigger issue at hand, that is Indias Air Force depends only on imported stuff. So it cannot depend only on Russian weapons. What if a 'la mistral' happens? Our force would be grounded. That is why there is the East-West pardox.

Second, we cannot simply take example of USA. US (or most respectable forces) makes all the aircrafts and parts themselves, they are not bound by potential sanctions.Additionally, US looks at the theaters differently, where each of its forces have different but coherent roles. While the marines operate Harriers, F-18s, F-35 (in future), Navy operates super hornets and its airforce operates F-15 and F16s additional to F-35, F-22 (and lot of paraphrenalia such as B-1, B2). And to compare Indian doctrines with US is funny. Same goes with Russia or France (which can call the NATO in emergency). Look at how many types of fighters China operates, and can have guess of India's dilemma. All blame should be on our poor decision making, no coherence at all!!!

Sreenivas R.

Ram said...

Any ploy that's gotten the Russians to attentively look at the operational availability issues of the Su-30 is a good one in my opinion. Whether or not we go with the Russians, we might as well leverage the deal for our benefit.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Parrikar seems smart - he has put both Dassault and UAC under pressure and buckle up themselves!

Rafale looks to have following advantages as MMRCA over Su-3X:

1. Terrain Following capability - holds height less than 100 meters.
Essential over uneven terrain.
Su-34 may have some TF capability, not as precise as Rafale.

2. Higher reliability & serviceability - with current servicibility level of Sukhoi's, IAF may be left with only 10-20% aircarft after two weeks of war.

2. Low RCS -

3. Smaller in size - useful for CAS/interdiction role - for shoulder fired MANPAD and unguided anti-aircraft guns to aim at.

However, paying $100M+ for Rafale is out of question.

Abhiman said...

Fully agree with first Anonymous poster at 11:30.

The MMRCA drama must be cancelled soon. Instead, IAF must nurture only Su-30 MKIs and Tejas combinations, just like the F-15-16 combo of the USAF and the Su-30-J-10 combo of China.

Let's analyze how the Rafale does NOT fit into the IAF.

The Su-30 MKI is a massive hulk that can carry 8 tons of payload with ease
But Rafale can carry 9.5 tons of external payload, and actually beats the much larger Su-30 MKI in this parameter. But how ? Is its design superior to the MKI's ? Are its engines super-efficient ?

Actually No.

The difference between the Rafale and MKI is that upon carrying 8 to 9 tons of payload, the MKI can still perform much of its heart-popping maneuvers. The Rafale on the other hand, will be clumsier than a passenger plane.

Yes. That's the only difference.

The IAF however, doesn't intend to use the Rafale as a bomb-truck. It won't send the Rafale for strike missions deep inside Tibet or Pakistan. That mission is for the Su-30.

Rafale's intended job is also not to establish air-superiority over Indian air-space. The Tejas is good enough for that.

Also, the Su-30 MKI and Tejas can tango perfectly well. They complement each other well. So, pray tell us, what is the Rafale's intended role ?

Well...err...nothing.

Its purchase is a huge waste of Indian exchequer's money. That money can be spent on setting up a new assmbly line for Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.2. It can be spent to speed up the Tejas Mk.2 testing. It can also be spent to hasten the development of the indigenous AMCA.

The Rafale deal is utterly useless and irrelevant. Only to save some diplomatic face, India can truncate the order by roughly half, to say, 60 only.

______________

Let's abandon the PAK-FA. Let's concentrate on the AMCA.

Anonymous said...

Better to purchase SU35S than a dated Fighter which is so expensive that it will affect other much needed purchases and all because flyboys want an acronym called MMRCA without any proper justification for its use.SU35S can easily take on the role meant for MMRCA while acting as a bridge to the FGFA.The capability of Su35S is beyond belief and that to at a much lower cost.

Anonymous said...

bah ! feedback exercice garuda 4 & 5, each time su30 trying to get rafale, rafale go away and other one shut the su30 in bvr, su30 seem not able to detect or lock the rafale, each time the su30 turn on its radar, spectra detect it rafale and shoot the su30, the su30 is so bad and so easy to lock by detection system rafale from long range, i hope for you the T50 do much better than su30/Su35. mig35 is a crap and the su30 look to be also crap, but it is good jet for country doenst have money and it is better than nothing face to county doenst have so much air defense. the S300 system also was not able to detect rafale in exercice nato. bah ! russian technology. not expensiv, but not efficient. that why india buy west compenent from USA or Israel for upgrade su30, that dobble the price of the jet.

Anonymous said...

First, China isn't buying Su 35s. Secondly, if you compare capabilities, the flanker is much better than the rafale. Please check the facts before you run around making stupid rants.
Also, I don't know if you really were affiliated with the iaf, if true, you surprisingly lack the grace and modesty of someone who rendered their service to the country and its people. Stop abusing people, it's not their fault that you are ignorant and bitter

Anonymous said...

@ AbhiMan the armchair Airman..

"..... the MKI can still perform much of its heart-popping maneuvers. The Rafale on the other hand, will be clumsier than a passenger plane.

Yes. That's the only difference."

Really??? What manoevres does a Su 30 do with 8 T? Have you test flown or Designed either? Seen them manoevering in those configurations?

"...The IAF however, doesn't intend to use the Rafale as a bomb-truck. It won't send the Rafale for strike missions deep inside Tibet or Pakistan. That mission is for the Su-30."

How do you know what the IAF intends?

"Rafale's intended job is also not to establish air-superiority over Indian air-space. The Tejas is good enough for that."

How do u know IAF intent? The Tejas ,my friend, is a cripple. The Mk2 which is still on the drawing board, by the way, is marginally better

"..Also, the Su-30 MKI and Tejas can tango perfectly well. They complement each other well. So, pray tell us, what is the Rafale's intended role ?

Well...err...nothing."

Once again
A) have there been any such trials exercises?
b) and How do two ac complement each other? why not some other combinations? Like Rafale and Su 30 ( at least both ac exist and are flying.)

c) You are clueless, DRDO is a Parasite

Anonymous said...

China bough 24 su35, it would be copied, same for T50 later., china more important inpartner ship than india.
for T50, india divide two the PAK FA order, the partniship of india in the project was also strongely reduced by Russia. it is just logic.


Chinese pilots arrive in Russia for Su-35 training

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150114000134&cid=1101

Anonymous said...

Folks very disheartening to see this kind of hysteria to call off the mmrca with the reason being given as faulty threat perception/'flyboy whims'/ money wastage by iaf.. The entire spectrum of defence establishment govt/mod/iaf collectively takes a decision on firstly requirement n secondly contenders.. Mmrca selection process was probably the most detailed evaluation ever conducted n was globally praised fr its professionalism . Has the threat perception changed? have genuine requirements changed ? Do u really feel that the 5th largest iaf which has always proved to be pivotal in all conflicts is childish n not worthy of deciding whats best fr it?I believe not!
Firstly both the heavy Su 30 n the medium mmrca have their own role to play.. su30 is an air superiority fighter with long range n can be used for taking out vital enemy assets like awacs, specific enemy outposts,fire the brahmos , engage enemy aircraft if needed, act as command n control centre fr other su 30s n air to air specialists like the mig 29 and basically be on the prowl to dissuade the enemy from even trying to get airborne.. Su30 is no doubt a spectacular plane (hence large numbers ordered) n the pride of the iaf however has higher maintainence n lesser servicibility n troublesome russian apathy when it comes to 'after sales service'..
The rafale is more of a Cas n ground attack aircraft..Is stealthier, enjoys a newer airframe, faster sortie turnover time n if the mirage 2000s performance is any thing to go by then its elder brother the Rafale surely can be a high altitude war winner as well and can be considered an upgrade/evolution of the mirage fleet itself.
Secondly Usa for years enjoyed the most diverse lineup of aircraft and to emmense success.. ranging from the a110 warhog.. f 117 night hawk.. b51 lancer.. b2 spirit..f 14 tomcat F 15 lightning f 16 fighting falcon f 18 hornet.. n f 22 n now the f 35( which shall take many years to replace the entire fleet if at all!!), specialized electronic warfare aircraft
Ea -18 growler just to name a few .. Mind u the largest af in the world is the usaf n the second largest Af is the Us navy having between an amazing array of fighters each with a specific role to play. Comparision with the Indian senario is absolutely incredulous where the entire burden of air warefare by n large is the Iaf's responsibility and yet has its hands tied when it comes to core strategic decisions . Russia too operates a wide array of fighters 6 mig types together at a point in time.. 5 su types still operational not to forget the Yaks n the tupolevs .

Thirdly Snecma is partnering with hal fr the lca mk 2 n 3 and amca engine.. the cricial TOT that the iaf/hal is looking for is an added bonus of getting the french rafale.. Tailess compound delta wing configurations that hal has taken a liking to (lca mk 1 2 n 3) is dassaults area of expertese..another bonus of this partnership..
India also has a long n fruitful history of not keeping all its eggs in one basket which is absolutely justified till complete indegenisation is achieved.. (imagine an entire fleet grounded in times of need due to non availability of spares/sanctions/declining servicibility).. further India has had total 'consumer satisfaction' when it comes to french aircraft be it the toofanis or the mirages .
SU 35 though a potent plane no doubt .. has an older airframe desig. it would be akin to going in fr the mig35 despite having the mig29.. EWS,avionics , may be a notch higher than the su 30 but the rafale offers the same n more .. n i personally think the iaf cud do better than including another humungous jet(su 35) in its lineup..
Allegations of the sort ive read here seem quite disingenous specially reagarding the potency of decision making in the top brass.. i personally feel we have enuf loose cannons in our country to deal with as it is y add to the list guys..

Anonymous said...

What is the source if such info? Where did you hear this??

Anonymous said...

NSR says...

RMM Parrikar is correct to say that it is a no go without the acceptance of RFI terms on cost, technology, quality, and delivery...

It may be nice to have this fighter at reasonable cost as it will spread the technology acquisition. However, adamant position taken by Dassault does not bode well for India ...It is too dangerous to go for it at the present cost and attitude...

Also, if India acquires it, then it must insist that it should be exactly like the one they are supplying to France airforce - F-3R version...
Otherwise, they will they supply outdated technology and then insist on $40 to 50 millions per upgrade like they are doing with Mirage-2000...

I hope that IG, MoD,IAF, and HAL has learnt well from Mirage-2000 and Scorpene deal...

There is a report that Pakistan exporting fighters to Myanmar and it makes feel sad about India and its R&D and acquisition system...

Indian Navy is doing far superior job with Tejas and ships...

Anonymous said...

@anon 12:55. Was that Klingon? I had to read it thrice. Twice slowly.

Rituraj said...

@Anon 3.23 AM

You sound like a mature, reasonable person and I assume you are from IAF. Only few people like you are making some sense these days from IAF on Rafale. In general, the kind of arrogant nonsense which comes out of other IAF experts like AM Manmohan Bahadur, AM Matheswaran etc, creates repulsiveness among online military discussion/curiosity groups.

What IAF has forgotten is that it is part of Indian democratic republic and if it wants something, it will have to prove and reprove its case. The socialist era of high-handed requirement and snobbery is gone. A strong public opinion can make life of IAF worse than hell, if it rubs in wrong way.

If at all Rafale fits into IAF's ORBAT, let IAF's senior leaders come forward and explain - day and night on all media mediums- to government and public, why the purchase is necessary ! What India is getting out of this humongous financial drain? Are there any commonalities? What will happen to LCA etc!!

Explain, persist, show the benefits, and IAF may clinch the deal.

Use arrogance, self-righteousness, ridicule of non-IAF crowd and sanctimonious language and you will find the anti-Rafale movement turning so strong that there will be no more corner to hide. It will a repeat of Swiss case for Rafale. As it is, now people are calling Indian Air Force, the "Imported Air Force".

Raj said...

The irony in the Indian Air Force is actually beyond imagination.

1. It has a reputed heavy fighter in Su-30MKI fleet. Another air superiority stealth fighter may come in the form of T-50.

2. Its MMRCA fleet made of MiG-29 UPG, Jaguar and Mirage 2000 are good enough for next 20-25 years. Their replacement would be required in 2035-40 framework for which AMCA development is undergoing.

3. It horribly lacks a single engine light fighter because its MiG-21s are going to be phased out very soon.

Instead of replacing these light weight single engine fighters immediately with LCA MK-1 and LCA Mk-2, IAF is desperate to buy Rafale which is a dual engine medium fighter of 4++ generation.

Can someone ask these Air Marshals, why are they replacing a light fighter with a medium one? What is driving these people?? Why will anyone make his air force top heavy, full of dual engine fuel guzzlers when its the light fighters which do the heavy lifting during peacetime/wartime?

Its a senseless waste of trillions of rupees, all public money. What a horror !!!!

Anonymous said...

Actually the Su 30 pilots weren't allowed to use their radar to keep the frequency of the Bars radar classified

Abhiman said...

Anonymous @4:06, the Su-30 is known to perform stunts at full load-out. Please read this: http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=665

There's no evidence of a Rafale being fully agile when fully loaded.

Speaking of trials, the IAF is supposed to conduct trials and grant the FoC (Final Operational Certificate) before ANY fighter jet is inducted. So, has it granted the FoC to imported wares like MiG-29, Mirage-2000 and many others ?

But strangely, Tejas has to jump through hoops before being granted IoC-1, then IoC-2 piecemeal certifications. And yet the IAF insists on FoC for the Tejas !!

So, foreign jets don't need to obtain an FoC. But indigrnous ones have to obtain multiple certificates. What gives ?


Anonymous said...

Well, a lot of people here are bashing the Rafale without knowing what it can do.

First about the weight:
From Yefim Gordon book about the Flanker, Su 30MKI Max take off weight is 34000kg, fuel 10000kg, and weapon 8000kg.
Empty weight is not given, but it leaves only 16000kg for the plane and basic Su 30 is given for 17700kg. So everyone thinking that Flanker can carry full internal fuel et full weapon load is naïve !

One is even more naïve to think that Flanker airshow demonstration is done with full fuel !

Russian avionic is so crap that export Su 30 and MiG 29K use foreign technology, like French HMD, French INS system (Sagem) cockpit display and HUD (Su-30MKM/MKA) and targeting pod (again MKM/MKA, MKI uses Israeli pod).

France is developing new targeting pod TV, IR and active laser imagery technology you won't find with Russian anytime soon.
http://www.janes.com/article/40865/farnborough-2014-thales-debuts-talios-pod

Meteor AA missile will be able to blow anything from 100km away (for real, not just ballistic range).
With AASM Rafale can blow 6 ground targets from 50km away (at FL300) in one pass.

In fact during training in UAE against high tech opponents it has been shown to be able to shoot 3 planes and fire 6 AASM in less than 1 minute !

Rafale have been designed to perform deep penetration into Soviet territory using silent terrain following. It's a nuclear bomber with ste of the art ECM.

Rafale also uses Areos stand off reccon pod, available on export, with air to ground imagery datalink to fasten the use. In fact French Air Force is also planning to put imagery specialists receiving Areos imagery inside its A330 MRTT to us them as command and control.

Yes Rafale is smaller, yet long range (ten hours bombing mission with in flight refuelling) and its technology is far ahead Russian Flanker.

Finally, every technology the Flanker gives you, China already has it, and can teach Pakistan how to fight it. So you're right, go on buying Russian !

Anonymous said...

@Abhimaan
Love ur persistence despite pathetic Lack of Knowledge :-)

IOC and FOC are for certifying that the ac can indeed perform its op role (DRDO and HAL bluffs a lot here..The Tejas doesnt meet very many critical specs...but if we r forced to buy anyway, might as well get at least 50% Vfm)

As far as foreign ac are concerned, dont buy what u dont like. In any case DRDO lover, its the Babus who make the contract and the buying decision. No one listens to the IAF. Thats how the IAF got stuck with the MiG series and HPT 32 and Marut widowmakers, and much other shit like parachutes which don't open and bombs which don't explode or explode on the Pylons.

DRDO cant even make INSAS rifles which work properly. They are useless parasites and gloryhunters.

Wish you send your son to fly a DRDO and HAL made plane..or even better a Russian designed, HAL maintained and DRDO copied one :-) (they can Cntrl C but not Cntrl V)
Once again Landlubber, buzz off, shoo

Anonymous said...

Sorry for not being able to control myself to pitch in at this moment. Although Mr ex iaf has used a very tough language in expressing himself, I can understand his situation and mentality. I myself am feeling like tearing my hairs reading all these discussions with lots of studies and facts and bookish knowledge but with zero (R) zero real time practical on the ground knowledge. Rafale is far ahead of flanker and even the 35. How can I say, I am still flying the flankers everyday and night and flown in Rafael and typhoon simulators. One small example, if we buy 270 flanker, due to scheduled maintenance around less than 50% will be available daily to fly. The percentage for rafale touches 85 to 88.I should not say anything more than this.

Anonymous said...

Good analysis

Rituraj said...

Can anyone explain in technical terms, where does Rafale stand in terms of stealth technology?

How will it face off against Chinese J-20 or Chinese-Pakistani J-31 who are pretty close to F-22/F-35 because of cyber stealing of designs and GE/SAFRAN cooperation with AVIC? How will Rafale hold itself against these fighters?

Abhiman said...

Anonymous @10:04, I appreciate your dogged defence of the IAF, despite your argumentative ground being chipped away steadily.

DRDO didn't 'bluff' on the Tejas. In fact, it has delivered more than the 1995 ASRs, and far far more than what was originally envisaged in the 1980s. Its the IAF that keeps changing its requirements, which forces DRDO to go back to the drawing board every now and then.

For example, IAF asked for a wing re-design in 2003-04, which put a spanner in the test plans. DRDO came back 20 months later with the new design. Similarly, IAF kept asking for avionics upgrades and weapon systems, which DRDO delivered.

IAF doesn't realize that you can't have a MiG-21 sized plane having the features of a Mirage or F-16. That's what the Tejas has now become. Because of this the GE-F404 engines fall a little short, but not much. So, what does IAF do ? It demands a new engine. This forced DRDO to go back to the drawing board to redesign a Mk.2 variant with a new engine.

Important Note: All the slander about Tejas being "overweight" and its intakes being 'faulty' are bunkum. Tejas weighs as much as a Gripen C/D, which too has a GE-414 engine. The JF-17 across the border also weighs the same, and its Russian engine gives the same thrust as the 404.


Now all this while, IAF refused to give Tejas crucial FoC certificates on one pretext or the other, when it doesn't follow the same standards while importing foreign fighters. The earliest batch of Su-30s inducted in 1997 were nowhere as sophisticated as the current crop. And no FoC certificate was given to Su-30. So, why IAF wants a picture-perfect Tejas from Day 1 ? Can't incremental upgrades come later ?

I'll tell you why : There is a dedicated lobby within the armed forces to pitch for foreign imports, while stamping out indigenous products. They get bribes in return for doing this.

_____________________
Let's abandon the PAK-FA. Let's concentrate on the AMCA.

Anonymous said...

So the above debate looks like a draw. My takeaway is:
1).Whew! Good there is the sukhoi30
2).Damn! When tejas gets FOC in Dec, it is going to make the neighbours go green with envy and
3).Hell! We need the rafale, its a game changer for the roles it will allow the IAF to play.
If the MOD thinks it has the budget for rafale,why not?!, it is an incredible plane.

But the IAF needs to work on its shoddy image of not supporting or being closely involved with local industry.

A humble note to some ex-services personnel. Condescension never wins an argument. Air forces must serve their countries, countries do not serve their air forces. Aam aadmi, knowledgeable or not, aviation experts or not, do have a right to ask why with respect to this or any other purchase.

Anonymous said...

@ Abhiman 1:47 and Anonymous 3:50
Does condescension not apply to your slanderous posts where you openly accuse the service of bribes and whatnot?
2. Question by all means, its a democracy, BUT get the f**king true data first and not a coloured one sided view
3. Abhimaan...Once again slooowly...FOC is for indigenous equipment whether Tank or Plane or Ship etc etc, PLEASE read the manuals on this and check who wrote and signed them, before such frivolous comments.
4. 1000 Kgs overweight, at least 10% below aerodynamic requirements, 15 years too late.. So was the world and your enemies standing still waiting for DRDO to deliver?
5. If some eqpt goes obsolete in the few decades meantime? if some re-design is required its just too f**king bad, you should have kept pace and done your job in time.
6. How many unmet requirements chum? too many..thats what.
7. You r pitying me?????? Look after yourself I am fine. If Tejas Overweight is Slander and Bunkum....:-) What does that make your line of Bribery? For instance consider ANY indigenous fighter programmme in the whole world which could not develop its own engine, Radar, Weapons and reach Range, endurance and manoevrability standards defined in 1979 for christssake..
You call that a resounding success?
Are you mad?
and My defence is "DOGGED" and yours is knowledgeable and inspired?
Get a Life Man :-)

Anonymous said...

@anon 7:28 pm. Read my post (i am the anon @3:50) again.

If there is anything slanderous to the IAF or DPSU's, English comprehension classes might be in order for you.

Just to be clear I was batting for the Rafale,Tejas and sukhoi, and I was not trying to be cynical.

Abhiman said...

Anonymous @7:28. Sir, if FoC is for indigenous equipment, then what is the certification given for foreign equipment ? There would surely be one, right ?

The re-design asked by IAF was a case of being caught napping. They should've included it in their 1995 ASR. This would've shaved off 2 years from testing.

Also, Tejas uses modular avionics, which means that its avionics are no more than 5 years old. Any updates can be integrated very quickly.

Speaking of indigenous content: The Gripen C/D is exactly like the Tejas: GE-F404 engine (USA), Ferranti radar (Italy), Martin Baker ejection seats (UK), and a host of other components sourced from friendly EU neighbours, and Uncle Sam just across the Atlantic. If that is indigenous, Tejas is too.

Besides, Sweden has been making its "iggen" series since WW2, what with Draken and Viggen and what not. In contrast, this was DRDO's maiden attempt at a modern 4+ gen fighter, with no significant prior experience. Add sanctions and tech. denials (post Pokhran) to that, and you see how far DRDO has come.

Besides, we are developing our own Astra missile and radar. The imported ones are substitutes to hasten the program. That's pragmatism ! The Kaveri couldn't succeed and we accept it. We've always used the G.E engines anyway, and so Kaveri's failure has not delayed the program one bit.

About bribery: Its a legacy. Since Admiral Nanda, Air Chief SP Tyagi, and many others in the coffin scam, the TATRA scam, skeletons keep tumbling out of the armed forces' cupboard every now and then. How do you explain that after retirement, a good number of ex-servicemen find cushy employment as "representatives" of Israeli and Russian companies in India ?

Restore said...

@Anon 7.28 PM,

If you represent Indian Air Force and your views are any similar to other officers in IAF, I see a very very dark future for you all.

No wonder scholars like Robert Farley are now calling for disbandment of US Air Force. Because the land portion of attack can be taken care of by Army Aviation, if properly equipped with CAS, MRCA and Heavy fighters. The naval portion is already being taken care of by the Navy all over the world. Long range interdiction can be done by long range cruise and ballistic missiles. They are not only cheaper and efficient but also precise and deadly.

So understand this fact, if things go like this, the days are not very far when this entire Air Force edifice will be disbanded and its assets divided into Army and Navy.As it is, their maintenance record is much better than yours.

About purchase of aircraft, I would give you an example. When you go to buy your car, you go by your requirement and pocket depth. You think about how much you can spend and what functions you want the car to do and according to that you buy the best value car.

In no case, you ask the F*ing driver what is his opinion on it. The driver would invariably like to buy Ferrari but the owner knows that driving from NFC to Okhla everyday can be done even in a nice Honda City so there is no point in buying a Ferrari for it.

Its similar for buying fighter aircrafts. It is MoD and LTIPP Purchase committee's job to buy the best aircraft for the best value. All these "Air Drivers" need not poke their nose into it. Wanna drive - good. Don't want to drive - F*** off.

Anonymous said...

@ Various ( Anon, Abhimaan, etc)

Finally Abhimaan comes close to the truth in his 10:32 post. Come closer..what was the reason for the wing re-design (hint...Obsolete Missile etc..) was it IAF napping or programme delays coupled with changing world and regional security environment, necessitating change ?

How much delay is condonable? how much is reasonable? How much was avoidable? How many have been fired? who is held to account for the delays and shortfalls? why the waivers and concessions in performance and more importantly safety and armament?

Look into your "Girebaan" was it the IAF fault alone? Is it a truly great and truly truly fully indigenous product which will never cause us problems in case of sanctions or any other embargoes?

and Abhiman....Not all are corrupt..Pl avoid un-substantiated personal attacks. Keep it professional and Real. Don't use the "Straw Man" argument

@ Restore 4:23...go away, you r not worth replying to.


Anonymous said...

Lets fire the f***ing drivers and do it with UCAVs

Anonymous said...

Nope just a keen military enthusiast like urself..I agree with ur general line of argument n also about the need fr persistence but with the following disagreements.. Arrogance n ridicule of non iaf crowd seems a little unfair i'd say.. Atleast ive never heard of the defence brass indulging in ridicule of any sort nor is their language a matter of question usually.... comments published here or by other ppl apart from the ppl actually involved musnt be regarded as the iafs official statement.. Nevertheless highhandedness n arrogance is deplorable wherever it arises..
As to trying to sell their views to the media it seems a rather un military like thing to do..Can u imagine the Air marshals all lined up on Times now n bickering with everyone else :-p it would be quite a sight though ..but im afraid its quite unlikely.. However even though air time may not be a priority with the forces but getting their views heard n discussed in great detail dosnt seem to be lacking by any measure as is apparent from news reports of the air chiefs numerous meetings with the mod.. Highly atypical n hopefully temporary.. I guess beyond that anything would be unnecessary n uncalledfor..
As goes the rafale vs su 30/35 argument..a russian expert while comaring and contrasting these planes said.. A scalpel cant chop wood but neither can an axe perform surgery.. Lets hope ultimately India gets the best deal out of all this mess ..

Anonymous said...

On an unrelated issue-
OMG .. Who the hell calls fighter pilots drivers.. Lol i bet most of us wanted to be pilots at some point in our lives:-p
If drivers are trained to withstand inhumane g forces.. Backbreaking training.. Rigourous sorties both day n night in the farthest corners of the land in highly unreliable n many a time obsolete cars then by all means call them drivers.. Whats the point of abusing them !! Its like calling ur heart surgeon a f***ing butcher who should tomoro be replaced by a robot..
Having many friends who joined the forces i can easily say most of us will be scared sh**less even trying to do a part of what these chaps do each n every day.. Have a heart guys

Hanonymous said...

IAF is one special air force. Why do we need 5, 5 types of aircrafts ?

1. Su-30MKI
2. Mirage 2000
3. Mig 29
4. Mig 21
5. Mig 27
6. Jaguar

Half of them falling out of the sky half the time they fly.

IAF top brass is fully corrupt, has been corrupt in defence acquisitions in IAF for at least 2 generations.who has the balls to confront them and change the IAF sob story of flying deathbeds ?

I hope PM sahab and DM sahab take a special kind of stick to these fellows.

6 aircrafts, and still the candy boys in IAF isn't done.

We should stop upgrading the haggard and migs and try and sell them, stop wasting money down th3 train.

I will be glad instead of darin garin and other bullcrap projects, we nearly but the rafale and replace all mig 21s, mig27s and jaguars.

Why exactly do we have mig 29s ?

Mirages were not enough ?

Raahul Kumar said...

@Hanonymous already said there are far too many aircraft types. We need less.

Cut out the Rafale. Get rid of the obsolete aircraft like the Mig-21, that plane is from the 1970s. The Jaguar and Mirages are also vintage.

Go full blast on the PAK-FA, MCA, DRDO AURA. When even the most advanced air forces only two planes, the F-22 and F-35 of the USA, it makes no sense for Bharat to have so many. We don't have the budget to fund so many different planes.

Anonymous said...

Lets give AM Rank to Raahul Kumar, Hanonymous 3:11, etc

We will buy all AMCA and LCA
Sell all current ac and eqipment

Fire all f***king corrupt drivers



Anonymous said...

Incredulous @ various
Prove requirements again and Again???

Beti ki shaadi hai kya?

Go and do it yourself and best of Luck

Jo Khareedna hai khareed, Meri balaa se kagaz ka plane lele, AMCA, Tejas Mk2 se better hoga, (time se mil jayegaa, udega, waise dono hi dushman ka kuch ukhaad to sakte nahin, to baat barabar hai)

Ch***ye sab apne chamdey ke sikke chalaate hain yahan. apni biwi ko sambhaalo.... :-) Khud ke naukri aur jeevan mein Fail..chale desh sudhaarne




Anonymous said...

hey does abhiman know that Gripen and Gripen NG both failed the MMRCA evaluation?

So how would Tejas Mk2 equivalence matter?

Anonymous said...

Raahul Farz karo aapne jo suljhaaya hai sach ho jaata hai

Ayer Phorce mein kewal 200-300 ladhaaku jahaaj rah jayeenge

Naye Jahaaj jaise ki aap ke samajh hai itne waqt mein nahin aa sakte kyonki woh baney hi nahin hai, aur agle 15 saal ban bhi nahin sakte kyonki uski machine, factory kuch bhi maujood nahin

Baaki photo, news wagairah sab dhoka hai. Govt se paise choosne ke khel hain. Public ke aankhon mein dhool jhonk kar.

kabhi inke phaande me na padein. bahut mehenga padegaa. Phir se 200 saal ke liye Ghulaam ban jaoogey.

Is baar koi freedom fighter nahin milegaa, kyonki sab log whatsapp aur facebook par hoga , bachaaney nahin aayegaa

Restore said...

The contrast in narratives, on Indian military capability, is so stark.

On one hand, India is a nuclear power with a growing nuclear weapon stockpile. No global major power worth his salt has any doubt about India's second strike capability and thus, any possibility for total/major war are quite remote. A major war would mean a thorough "Mutual Assured Destruction". Hence, there is no need for knee jerk platform buying. Rather, it is expected from India to build its indigenous military industrial infrastructure under the nuclear overhang.It is a golden chance to convert India's IMPORTED AIR FORCE to a BUILDER'S air force.

On the other hand, many "air drivers" of Indian Air Force are manufacturing fear and panic for the MoD and common populace of India, on a daily basis. They project as if the war is right around the corner. So instead of looking for replacing their light MiG-21 & MiG-27 fighters for CAS/CAP roles, all these air drivers want a "Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft" or some such nonsense with fancy name. One DPSA Jaguar failed in Kargil, now another is wanted - ASAP, urgently, immediately, right next morning. Otherwise, disaster will come.

Dear Air Driver, enough of your rants, now let the policy maker take the decision. It is above your pay scale.

Jean Luc Picard said...

I honestly suspect "Restore" is our neighbor from the west.

Obviously there is a big point of difference between PRO DRDO and PRO IAF groups here, sometimes this argument is heated as well.

If it does, it becomes a ripe place for foreign entities to engender hatred in place of grievance.

I know this is just a small forum but in a democracy where peoples opinions and perceptions do affect the workings of GoI (or atleast the opposition )therefore its prudent for us to keep the discussion for knowledge development rather than perception management (something like what the media does today).


Be it PRO IAF or PRO DRDO at the heart of everything we are PRO INDIAN. Engendering hatred is ANTI INDIAN.

I humbly request all commentators to scale back our passion so outsiders dont take advantage of our internal "squables".


Jai Hind !

P.S. - Jean Luc Picard is a charchter in a TV show. Im not french ! lol ! :D

Anonymous said...

@ Restore
Lovely sentiments

Except ppl of your "Pay Grade" have failed to " Make the Grade" for the past 30 years

Indigenous isnt

Know what it means?

Like some one said above

You can also chalao your sikkas, its a democracy

Basically sab fraud hain ... sab bikau hain...Tum bhi

Zaroor kisi PSU ke contractor ho ya kisi Offset company ke maalik ya shareholder, warna aise site pe itna emotional kyon? business jaa raha hai?

Ya koi bewaqoof jise yeh nahi samajhta ki koi( HAL, DRDO) usey kaise chu***ya banaa raha hai

Jo inhone tees saal mein kar dikhaya wohi baaki 10-12 saal mein karte hain aadhi keemat par.

Baaki Teri Marzi, lagta hai tuhi maalik hai, " Pay Grader" hai Bhai Salaam.

Anonymous said...

@RESTORE
What is your Pay scale? Just curious.

R U a decision maker?
You make decisions based on perceptions and not hard data ?

God help those whom u make decisions for :-)

You must be really bad no? My way or Highway types

Anonymous said...

@ restore.. 5.pm ..ur inferiority complex gets the better of u every time u post.. bhai kitna air driver air driver krega .. lol.. this is a place fr serious commentry n dicussion based on sound facts .. keep ur personal issues at home pal..

@ hanonymous 3.11 pm.. man ur argument is factually incorrect.. both mig 29 and mirage were built for different purposes..I can only believe it must be a typing error on ur part..Mig 29 is Air superiority/ADA( air defence aircraft) specialist and mirage is a CAS N ground attack fighter .. Kargil was a perfect example of the special role of these 2 wherin 2 mirage( one with litening pod n the other with dumb bomb) were given air defence cover by 2 mig 29s on each bombing run..
not a single enemy aircraft could penetrate this formation and many an enemy outpost and supply unit was bombed succesfully paving way for their successful recapture by the Indian army.. This is basic history yaar.. itna toh pta hona chahie na!
Also the Mig 29 was ordered in 1980 before the order of mirage 2000 so to say that y did we buy mig 29 when we already had mirage reflects an extreme dirth of facts on ur part..
Lets keep these matters of national security to the experts shall we!

Anonymous said...

@ Restore

Chhod yaar, Tu conductor! Ticket kaat aur dafa ho :-)

Baaki kuch aata pata to hain nahin

LoL

Anonymous said...

@anonymous 11.10pm.. haha shi bola boss!!

Jojo said...

MiG 29 and Mirage 2000 H are both designed as air defense fighters.
The difference is that the weapon system of the Mirage was more sophisticated and versatile, so it was possible to adapt laser pod and laser guided bombs on the Mirage.
Then the MiG was used to perform the only thing it can do (air defense), precision strike was not for him at that time...it doesn't mean that the MiG is better than Mirage for Air Defense.

Anonymous said...

Anon@12:14 and before, before calling other folks glory hunters and parasites, look within. Your air marshals drink johnny walkers with money allocated for spares, buy rs 10 screwdrivers for Rs10000 from russia, send their kids to london for undergrad education, build fancy houses with the money from acquisitions.. and operate 1950s technology fighters while sneering at smarter individuals who develop better stuff. judging by your own language, your own background is not any great shakes either. a little bit of humility would go a long way, nahin to aapki pole kholne main der nahin lagegi. many of us have worked with forces and know how corrupt they are.

Ajay Vidyadhar said...

RAFAEL.
Start screaming

Anonymous said...

Have you flown the su-35? Considering the fact that it is labeled as a multirole fighter by the Russians, don't you think it will have a higher availability rate? At least comparable to the rafale? Also if you were flying a Rafale or typhoon would you want to get in a dogfight with a Su-35?

Anonymous said...

Comparing weapons in ones own armory and criticizing it after buying it with the intention of never using it .... pathetic. Funny that we sling mud at each other ,DRDO , IAF and former RM's to justify and spend our money on some phirang product which they nearly beg us to buy for their survival.. not ours. Whom and what are we intending to use it against. We will never have a full scale war with our neighbors as we all understand that it is total annihilation of both sides economically and militarily. Are we preparing to take part in a world war ? Even that will never happen as the phirangs are not that crazy. If it is deterrent that we are aiming then let us go for better modes of deterrent than the above discussed ones. The world of fighters do not end with Su-35 or Rafale's. Look 10 years beyond and we will get the ANSWER.

Sam-AirWolf said...

It would be interesting AND fair to study performance of RAFALE >< Su30MKI/Typhoon/F18/F16/JAS39/MiG35 before making unscientifically passionate/biased claims like Su30MKI does Cobra maneuvers, fly's very fast, is very impressive & scary, will swat the Rafale like a fly/mosquito (whatever the Russian comment was :-) I feel KPIs for any Military are: Combat-Radius (Read: Endurance), Engine Reliability (Read: MTBF and MTTR), FCR-AESA (Range, Multi-Target track/Engage, Up/Down, etc. & most importantly MTBF and MTTR), Avionics-HMI (HUD, HMSD, Glass-Cockpit, Controls-HOTAS, etc.) and most of all Survivability (Read: RCS & EWS and its' reliability; Read: MTBF and MTTR). I feel the Rafale has every one hand-down in these KPIs. Loud big cobra-maneuvers are fun at Air-Shows - doesn't help evade Mach3 AAM or SAM. MTBF of Russian systems....less said the better!! They claim 2x-hrs and calculate lifecycle costs and upon delivery blame Indian engineers for x-hrs observed in field conditions....and bleed us dry on spares. I guess HP-Inkjet business unit picked up this technique from the Russians;-)

Anonymous said...

I think m gonna have to agree with those iaf guys....because lets face it guy s...all those initial anonymous commentors are just pouring in there views on the basis of what they hv read on the internet....and talking about those iaf guys' temper...i think dts totally appropriate, cause all those air sentinels who got crashed during regular sorties....didn't even get chance to blame anyone...so someone has to do that...and no other than there fellow pilots could understand that....cause they have real experience of flying those airborne beasts...when v r still wandering on ground dreaming to be on one. And on top of that those guys have served in iaf...so plz least v could do Is show them some respect...and give a thought on what they r trying to say.

Anonymous said...

- By when will DRDO,DPSU's be able to deliver a 5th Gen aircraft? 2050?
- What is wrong if Govt opts to buy 126Rafale and still go ahead with
200 Tejas?
- Will the enemy wait for the Tejas to be capable enough?So just for encouraging the HAL and ADa and DRDO should IAF go for a fighter aircraft jus because it is manufactured by you?
- Who is the customer here DRDO,HAl,ADA or the IAF?
- Can you convince some country in the entire world to use the Tejas?
- Any external country that has certified Tejas a usable aircraft, do you see some chance of it happening?
- The best approach win-win for all would be to go ahead with Rafale, Yes the Mirage 2000 had proven its capability in Kargil, when no other could do its job better, IAF is completely right in going ahead for an Improved contemporary Mirage 200(Rafle). Ironically the MMRCA was floated keeping Mirage 2000 in mind and Dassault offered Rafale. and IAF should and must wait for clearing the LCA until all the requirements are met. But once the minimum is met, place a huge order offcourse pay per delivery.

DPSU's need to increase their production speed and technology evoulution at a rapid pace. One must laud theur hardwork in getting a good avionics suite, fly by wire and composite modular approach. But that is falling short of the current situations.

On the other hande, MOD and Babus need to convince IAF speeding up the evaluation, and force the IAF to be detail in requirements.

Unless DRDO delivers atleast the IJT's in a timely manner and of reliable quality its no fault of anyone to turn them down



Dalip Bhati said...

We must not go for R-A-F-E-L (spelling for the dingo who does not know it is being used as proper noun hence can be spelled or pronounced as suitable) MIG 35 or SU 35 are best options for India -- Rafale does not stand anywhere near then except just boasting by the Francs -- they have OLS which is capable of detecting stealth aircrafts passively at a distance of 45 to 60 kilometers overtly and might be more covertly

Anonymous said...

Too much acrimony . Kindly do a few shanti asanas.

Somebody said something about Mig 21 crashing . It is a fact . So immediately why not a few squards.of Gripens as intermediate solution at once . Tejas is future tense and let it remain so . But get these nippy dogfighters as they can match the pakis solah and thunders.

Mig 27 are getting old. But they are the only option for battlefield interdiction and plain ground attack . The option is to seriously upgrade the jaguars and get them on a one to one replacement. We manufacture the Hawk and Qutar and some other countries have got Hawk 100/200 in a fighter/ attack role with modificatons . Hawk is still a very able trainer and is highly agile . We need this to supplement the Jaguars .

Scrap the Mig 29's and replace them with Mig 29M on one to one basis. No fancy stuff just the good old great airdefense fighter.

Scrap the Mirage 2000 and replace them with the Rafales . If the airforce feels so, the Mig 29 can be replaced by the Raffys also. Cuts down on the type also.

Finally why are the Airbrass not declaring a jihad when things are so bad ? No politician / babu shall say no to a uniformed Sipaiya in his uniform .

Anonymous said...

Good Post .

One small point . The Mig 29's , Jaguars , Maritime Defense Jaguars , Mig 27's

can all e replaced by Raffy . Hell of a economies of scale.

Anonymous said...

SU35 is a better offer in same price ie 8.3 billion we can have 100 SU35 instead of 36 rafale. we already have a maintenance facility for SU30 so it will not be a problem to maintain the SU35 just think about it SU35 got a top speed of 2500 KM/Hr against the rafales 2130 KM/Hr.

Dalip Bhati said...

whatever be the reason kick backs, UN seat etc etc SU 35 and MIG 35 are best for us beefed upped with t 50 and nuke submarines and Brahmos II and of course ruski VETO baqi we will do in due course of time

Anonymous said...

oopsy daisy... looks like the indian bluff didn't work with the french: india announces a deal for 36 planes... and many more might be ordered later on...

Sudip Das said...

Instead of pointing fingers at each other , the discussion should be constructive. Perhaps the following can be discussed :
-Requirement of IAF if it has to go to war on two fronts
-type and variety of fighter aircrafts needs to be reduced
- Numerical strength of Chinese air force , they still operate 700 + MIG 21s, request all the experts and especially the EX and Present IAF PERSONNEL to enlighten this discussion forum , can five to six squadrons of RAFALE/X/Y/Z and 10 squadrons of SU 30 MKI defend Indian air space if China decides to invade with 200 MIG 21s and 100 copied and LOCALLY produced SU30MKK
-In view of above India needs atleast 500 more fighters medium or light with state of the art avionics, countermeasures, AESA and BVR capability
-Does India has the financial strength to procure 500 Rafales, perhaps no , then what is the next best solution
- It is easy to criticize the DRDO , BUT APART FROM COST AND TIME OVERRUN , they have done a commendable job
-Lastly there are many anonymous , apart from serving air force personnel , all others should reveal their identity , by not doing so they are perhaps generating a lot of suspicion

tejender pal singh saran said...

U are wrong rafale is multirole fighter means it can work as percision bomber , air superiority fighter and awac hunter and France made only one plane due to economic issue or did India has same economic issue that y iaf is chasing rafale madly ur argument is wrong about light and heavy air superiority fighter what about fighter bomber, American has f18,a10,b2 ,a110 etc