tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post2899235353610671785..comments2023-10-11T17:09:54.975+05:30Comments on LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: India's Arjun Tank In Army's Biggest WargameShiv Aroorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03510476258643893433noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-4514535034694561532012-07-30T03:53:00.945+05:302012-07-30T03:53:00.945+05:30^Well, well....
I hate to say I told you so (I ac...^Well, well.... <br />I hate to say I told you so (I actually don't hat it, in-fact, I'm gonna do a bit of gloating here), but I told you so!<br /><br />http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2564/imgarjun2crop2.jpg<br /><br />http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Im0iro9i0Uk/T50_Zo1OoWI/AAAAAAAAP-c/fPZEstrFi7s/s1600/Arjun+Mk+II+graphic.jpg<br /><br />What do you have to say for yourself now? <br /> :)iambobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-58336707869674325132011-12-15T13:08:07.930+05:302011-12-15T13:08:07.930+05:30Bob,
It was not my intent to put you in a spot.
...Bob,<br /><br />It was not my intent to put you in a spot.<br /><br />Lots of people are clamoring for sloped armor in here. So much so that this desire to see sloped armor has translated into - "Arjun doesn't have sloped armor, therefore it is an obsolete piece of crap"<br /><br />The problem is that when enough people say it, then it becomes the accepted wisdom. Subsequently if somebody comes along and says that composite armor is much superior to traditional armor and that it works best when it is not sloped in order to offer a perpendicular face to the projectile, then he is ridiculed and dismissed.<br /><br />I have urged everybody to do a basic read on composite armor and sloped armor and how they resist KE penetrators, HEAT rounds, ATGM rounds etc.<br /><br />Finally I'd request everybody to kindly think for a minute about how 60 tons of the latest armor is useless unless you add 4.5tons of sloped steel sheets. The 4.5tons is what the Leopard 2A5 has as the add-on sloped armor.<br /><br />Please, think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-30897705937973377102011-12-14T06:46:18.541+05:302011-12-14T06:46:18.541+05:30Re: Genious
I'm not an Engineer or Scientist. ...Re: Genious<br />I'm not an Engineer or Scientist. I have no idea how or if adding sloping armor on the Arjun will make it safer or better. All I am saying is that if it does indeed improve the Arjun, then they should do it.IamBobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-31186645540224080102011-12-13T04:47:36.630+05:302011-12-13T04:47:36.630+05:30JUST A THOUGHT
Turret Arjun with gun and thermal ...JUST A THOUGHT<br /><br />Turret Arjun with gun and thermal image<br />Base t-90 with more power ful engine <br />think.......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-32097846228114844842011-12-12T18:03:08.736+05:302011-12-12T18:03:08.736+05:30Hi Bob,
Genius here again :)
A quick glance at c...Hi Bob,<br /><br />Genius here again :)<br /><br />A quick glance at composite armor gives me these snippets from Wikipedia (please put forth counter arguments from more reliable sites if you disagree with quoting Wikipedia):<br /><br />"Ceramic tiles draw little or no advantage from sloped armour as they lack sufficient toughness to significantly deflect heavy penetrators. Indeed, because a single glancing shot could crack many tiles, the placement of the matrix is chosen so as to optimise the chance of a perpendicular hit, a reversal of the previous desired design feature for conventional armour. Ceramic armour normally even offers better protection for a given areal density when placed perpendicularly than when placed obliquely, because the cracking propagates along the surface normal of the plate" (From the wikipedia section on Chobham Armor)<br /><br />Here is another quote:<br />"Another development decreasing the importance of the principle of sloped armour has been the introduction of ceramic armour in the seventies. At any given area density, ceramic armour is also best when mounted more vertically, as maintaining the same area density requires the armour be thinned as it is sloped and the ceramic fractures earlier because of its reduced normal thickness." (From the wikipedia section on sloped armor)<br /><br />So it seems like even for the Leopard, the main protection comes from the composite/spaced armor which is flat and slab sided, with the add on sloped armor providing some additional protection. Now if someone could point out what the MAGNITUDE of this extra protection is, then we could have a better idea of whether it is worth going for the extra weight and the extra time and the extra expenditure. Remember that the Indian Army's main problem with the Arjun is weight, and now maybe even the cost.<br /><br />Now I beg you to not say, "Well the Germans must be idiots then, they didn't read wikipedia". Please contribute.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-11804228349962215022011-12-12T17:39:06.205+05:302011-12-12T17:39:06.205+05:30Hello Bob,
Im the genius :) Actually I'm not ...Hello Bob,<br /><br />Im the genius :) Actually I'm not (Surprise!!) which is why I'd still need somebody to explain what effect the addition of "a few plates"(what weight?) will have on the penetration resistance of the turret. Please see if you can express that in either percentage or effective millimetres of steel.<br /><br />Which prevalent weapons or expected weapons is the Arjun currently vulnerable to, that the addition of such sloped armor will make it resistant?<br /><br />Lastly, it might just be a matter of us having a slightly different attitudes to life, but rather than asking, "Why cant we do it if the Germans did it?", I'm more likely to ask, "Do we need to do it? what is the gain and what is the cost?"<br /><br />I really think that the logic of, "Lets do it coz the Germans did it", or "I THINK sloped armor must be really awesome", is very very weak. I hope I can find a better reason for why we should embark on a time consuming and energy sapping journey of redesigning the Arjun turret.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-61829649058565042892011-12-11T04:26:42.179+05:302011-12-11T04:26:42.179+05:30To the genius (sarcasm) at 2:08:
I doubt a few pla...To the genius (sarcasm) at 2:08:<br />I doubt a few plates of armor would significantly affect the weight to power ratio. <br /><br />And if that change makes the Arjun better, then I don't care if it means "redesign of the sights."<br /><br />Clearly, winning the fight, the battle, or the war is more important than the inconvenience of adding on a few more plates. <br /><br />Leopard before: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leopard-2a4-kl5.jpg<br /><br />Leopard after: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leopard-2a5-kl19.jpg<br /><br />If the Germans could do it, why not India?IamBobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-12806737193002566932011-12-09T19:17:37.460+05:302011-12-09T19:17:37.460+05:30Arjun looks like the boss out there. Its just mass...Arjun looks like the boss out there. Its just massive and awesome. I hope we can beat the South Koreans in the tank market and sell a few of these.Karthik Soundarajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07093024059746827392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-9377911011962478032011-12-09T14:08:14.000+05:302011-12-09T14:08:14.000+05:30Let me see if I understand it correctly:
Sloped A...Let me see if I understand it correctly:<br /><br />Sloped Armor advocates here want the Arjun to follow the Leopard example and strap on more armor and increase the weight further? <br /><br />AND<br /><br />Go for a complete redesign of the sights because they will have to be moved to the top like the Leopards as the new armor will obstruct the view. Guess how long a redesign of the turret will take.<br /><br />And now to make for a sensible discussion, can we please have someone tell us what theoretical advantage in terms of penetration millimetres and what practical advantage in terms of scenarios will such a costly exercise provide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-61591862999266228342011-12-09T10:09:19.044+05:302011-12-09T10:09:19.044+05:30I'm sure then can add sloped armor later on. G...I'm sure then can add sloped armor later on. German Lepopard has a very similar design to the Arjun and use to be "blocky" too. But in the later version of the Tank they seem to have added sloping armor.IamBobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-79184361917712642802011-12-08T11:19:21.289+05:302011-12-08T11:19:21.289+05:30The Abrams, LeClerc etc also have composite armor:...The Abrams, LeClerc etc also have composite armor: Just clarifying. The sloped outer surface is still advantageous no matter what the armor type.<br /><br />The upgraded Russian T-90SM also has sloped reactive armor.Gautamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-44382024597743656912011-12-08T05:56:04.431+05:302011-12-08T05:56:04.431+05:30anonymous..
dead wrong, M1 does not have a sloped ...anonymous..<br />dead wrong, M1 does not have a sloped face due to it's composition of steel. Chobham armor is ceramics, kevlar, and in the case of U.S. M1's DU as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-66180150931252275092011-12-07T16:46:08.317+05:302011-12-07T16:46:08.317+05:30JJ,
Why should I read when I already know everyth...JJ,<br /><br />Why should I read when I already know everything.<br /><br />Sarcasm aside, why is the whole "sloped armor" thing still continuing? People who are actually interested in armor and are commenting here should by now understand that armor, especially composite armor is very complex business and not a case of slapping on steel sheets.<br /><br />How about this, people who are convinced that sloped armor is better than flat armor by XX% should just read up on composite armor before commenting. Small task what say?<br /><br />No offense intended but please do not assume that you are some genius who has figured out that if armor thickness is "X" and by sloping it by angle "y" you present a greater thickness of "X/cos y". There is a lot more to armor design now in this age of long rod penetrators.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-74426134411179032572011-12-07T16:40:08.648+05:302011-12-07T16:40:08.648+05:30@Anon 1:52
Tanks like Abrahams, Leo, Merk have sl...@Anon 1:52<br /><br />Tanks like Abrahams, Leo, Merk have slopped turret because of the material which makes it's armour. They heavily use steel, hence providing a slopped surface for a projectile gives more steel depth.<br /><br />Composite armor don't follow that concept. Take a example of a bullet flying through a layer of steel,jelly,water,air and then steel. The bullet will have different velocity based on the material it is traveling in, just like sound! Pure Physics.<br /><br />The concept of composite is to provide such a combination that the projectile slow down considerably. A slopped armour will brake the composite,rather than entering through individual layers. Check the turret structure of T-90 and Chally.<br /><br /><br /><br />Let us no assume makers of Arjun are that stupid.<br /><br />Why ERA? gives protection against a exploding shell,where composites by default is not ideal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-52493432402947873282011-12-07T15:25:42.522+05:302011-12-07T15:25:42.522+05:30Anonymous @1:52:
For sloped armour to be effectiv...Anonymous @1:52:<br /><br />For sloped armour to be effective, the projectile has to hit the tank at a certain angle. Even with straight armour plates, most projectiles fired will hit it at an angle instead of hitting it straight on as most people think. Also, you should read something about how different kinds of armours work.JJhttp://www.jjamwal.innoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-66645736652068372292011-12-07T13:52:26.090+05:302011-12-07T13:52:26.090+05:30Sloped Edges on the turrent
- Sorry if you misunde...Sloped Edges on the turrent<br />- Sorry if you misunderstood my comment, but when i said block over block, i did not mean ERA blocks, but i meant that whole tank looks like a small cuboid over a big cuboid.<br /><br />If you see pics of any other tank like T-90, T-72, M1A1 Abrams, Challenger 2, Leopard, Merkava 4, you would see that front face of the turrent is sloped.<br /><br />This helps deflect the tank shells better than a flat face.<br /><br />Arjun might have a kanchan composite armour or ERA blocks, but this looks more like a basic feature to be designed.<br /><br />Constructive arguments are appreciated than stupid replies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-28786905648356136032011-12-07T10:36:56.199+05:302011-12-07T10:36:56.199+05:30What? No sloped turret?
Why do those crew-members...What? No sloped turret?<br /><br />Why do those crew-members look like unprofessional uncles?<br /><br />Etc...Generic Trollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-72123411783453349072011-12-07T08:45:25.634+05:302011-12-07T08:45:25.634+05:30Very good pictures Shiv. Atlast the Arjun is in an...Very good pictures Shiv. Atlast the Arjun is in an exercise. Do go ahead with the water marking, However see if you can reduce the size of the Watermark in the form of a seal and have it in two or three places in the image.Ramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01321835937920790710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-83484337532253473922011-12-07T07:16:32.846+05:302011-12-07T07:16:32.846+05:30anon @ 9.09 pm you seem to think ERA is the mai-ba...anon @ 9.09 pm you seem to think ERA is the mai-baap of all armor protection. May I remind you that the Arjun survived a direct hit because of it's Kanchan composite armor. True, the Arjun MK-2 is getting ERA panels in addition to the Kanchan but if you think ERAa are the be-all end all protection you need read this post from Ajai Shukla and think again:<br />http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/08/t-72-vulnerability-again-illustrated-in.html <br /><br />Those unfortunate T-72s had the ERA jewellery on them. I'm glad Arjuns are playing the role of aggressors because that's exactly the hunter killer role they'll be employed for.<br /><br />Shiv, as far your comment goes that"Let's hope the Mk.2 is everything the Arjun was not" that'll hold as long as the army doesn't keep shifting the goal posts and becomes a full fledged stake holder with CVRDE instead of pretending to be a hard ass'ed customer (I wish the Army showed the same spine standing up to the T-90 bull shit of the Russians)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-84054751483391923132011-12-07T07:02:06.336+05:302011-12-07T07:02:06.336+05:30I don't see any armor on the tank even though ...I don't see any armor on the tank even though these are the final product delivered to army.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-6602736711689805632011-12-07T03:27:19.079+05:302011-12-07T03:27:19.079+05:30Anom @1:33
If Arjun having straight face is DRDO ...Anom @1:33<br /><br />If Arjun having straight face is DRDO blunder, then the maker of T-34, the Russian might have made even bigger blunder.<br /><br />T-90 also has a straight faced, boxed turret!<br /><br />The slope you see on T-90 is ERA bricks.<br /><br />And guess what both have composite armour, one reason for "not being slopped".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-8939894485453918152011-12-07T01:33:25.378+05:302011-12-07T01:33:25.378+05:30Hi Shiv,
Beautiful pictures.
But it raises few que...Hi Shiv,<br />Beautiful pictures.<br />But it raises few questions.<br />Any WW2 documentary or Top 10 Tanks list, we see T-34 as the best tank. One main reason was its sloped edges. I fail to see any similar slopes on Arjun. Compare it with any modern tanks and you see its turret missing slopes. Its like a big block over block. Slopes help increase the available thickness. Is this a known exclusion from Arjun? or did DRDO/ARDE made a blunder? Any insights on this can be helpful.<br /><br />ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-79251989705779349752011-12-07T00:39:43.525+05:302011-12-07T00:39:43.525+05:30Good to see the indigenous Arjun being part of the...Good to see the indigenous Arjun being part of the Army's offensive excercises...<br /><br />for those who are critical, I want to remind you that when Kia and Hyundai first came out with the cars, they could not even go up a slope without difficulty...my friend's first Kia broke its axle within the first year. <br /><br /><br />Developing capability is an incremental process and there are various stages of maturity before you reach the stage of having a world class product.Rohannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-51017957746730908172011-12-06T21:42:12.563+05:302011-12-06T21:42:12.563+05:30Thanks a lot shiv.. You really made me Happy.. :) ...Thanks a lot shiv.. You really made me Happy.. :) please post some video if you have....Akash..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04950474770379078223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-55126719402029769872011-12-06T21:30:29.896+05:302011-12-06T21:30:29.896+05:30wow .... they look damn good ....wow .... they look damn good ....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com