tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post8654984176132229232..comments2023-10-11T17:09:54.975+05:30Comments on LIVEFIST: COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong ReasonsShiv Aroorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03510476258643893433noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-91090837861102052692011-07-28T19:14:20.653+05:302011-07-28T19:14:20.653+05:30Intersting article, well done but....with some leg...Intersting article, well done but....with some legend that make it completely missing the point on my opinion.<br />1 - Why the US should be considered a reliable ally for the future of India? <br />Ask to your Pakistani neighbours, to Indonesia or to the "poor" Saddam Hussein how reliable are the American. <br />They simply give to you their "support" as far you do what they want you do. <br />2 - the other legend is that the Typhoon is more exensive than the Rafale and that the F-18 is "cheap". Please have a look at http://www.ccomptes.fr/fr/CC/documents/RPA/1_conduite-des-programmes-armement.pdf<br />The document is in French but the charts are very simple and effective. rafale cost 142 million euro each!! And this is an official document fron the French Account Office. There is a reason why the Rafale has never been exported so far?<br />The price quoted for the F-18 is without engines and some avionics. Add that, at least 15 per cent, and you will see that the cost of the F-18 is in line with aircraft with performances much better in all the aspects.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-89927763740975396712011-07-21T14:43:57.372+05:302011-07-21T14:43:57.372+05:30Anon @ 1.15 pm. That honor is not restricted to th...Anon @ 1.15 pm. That honor is not restricted to the services in India. Remember, the scum usually rises to the top. The rank / seniority invariably swells up their heads and their ability to learn and understand falls precipitously. The exceptions are very very rare.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-57602388529921358292011-07-21T14:38:02.755+05:302011-07-21T14:38:02.755+05:30The IAF seems to be consistently ashamed to work w...The IAF seems to be consistently ashamed to work with HAL / DRDO, to make domestic equipment work. Neither do they understand the long term interests of the country. GoI should create a new force, say the 'Marines' who will not be 'customers' but 'partners' in developing domestic equipment. All fresh recruitment should take place in the new force. Let the oldies retire along with their imported toys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-62997572745237715712011-07-19T13:15:32.715+05:302011-07-19T13:15:32.715+05:30RE: Anon @ 11:53 PM
There is a deep misconception...RE: Anon @ 11:53 PM<br /><br />There is a deep misconception in the Indian military that the senior always knows better. Often, the senior doesn't know better! The bigger they are, the louder their sonic fart, that's about all there is about seniors!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-7475556848723102242011-07-18T23:53:34.708+05:302011-07-18T23:53:34.708+05:30Sir ,
I agree with the earlier anon. Just had an ...Sir ,<br /><br />I agree with the earlier anon. Just had an idea after the approval of the Mirage upgrade . The rafale because of its maritime heritage can easily replace the Jags,Mig 27's and the harriers in the Naval service. In the airforce the Mig 21's, Mig 29's, Mirage 2000 , can be retired as soon as the rafale stabilises . In short one type can replace half a dozen types, under current use thereby justifying its cost.<br /><br />I would like the opinion of my seniors on this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-879757023697918882011-07-17T12:29:58.554+05:302011-07-17T12:29:58.554+05:30Admiral Sir,
Let me compliment you on a wonderful...Admiral Sir,<br /><br />Let me compliment you on a wonderful article. Its a pity that your insights,experience and knowledge has no use for our so called Governments.<br /><br />Now lets see where we are. The Mig 21,27and 29 are obsolete. The Jags and the Mirages are nearing their expiry dates while we haggle over upgrades.The basic trainer is defunct and a replacement is nowhere in sight. The Lamas,Allouttes and Mi series are past their lifetime. There is an extreme shortage of young pilots . A 100 odd Su30 cannot fight a war under Indian conditions where air battles will be fought at tree top levels in blistering heat. In a nutshell , this is block obsolesence. The Govt. is least bothered and the Service Chiefs are not willing to stick their necks out and take the issue to the nation, demanding immediate action . I can openly say that Sir, the Air force cannot defend the nation any more .<br /> The situation is exactly the reverse across the border. There seems to be no shortage of resources or technology or committed manpower. Pakistan is being brought up to the Israeli standard by Uncle Sam regardless of what they do in their immediate neighbourhood and China is already an enemy superpower in technological terms also.<br /><br />Instead of talking relationships can I request you and your current service chiefs to keep it simple and not talk about relationships or strategy . We need a basic trainer and now. How difficult is that ? There are at least five good ones floating in the market and it does not take three years to place an order and get the first unit into service. Secondly the Mig 21 is gone - and we need an immediate replacement to fill up the Gap.If Mig 29M's are nor reliable , then go for the small Gripen . It can hold its own against the best in point defense until the MMRCA comes along. Thirdly why is it so difficult to select an interim chopper from Europe or Russia for replacing the cheetah . Do we lack expertise to know what we want ? and please do not talk private sector or public sector, buy or make etc. The need is to get fighters in the air.<br /><br />My ramblings may be simplistic and stupid. But with so many intelligent people out there , I see no result in sight. God help our country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-47334059614118401442011-07-13T13:57:57.896+05:302011-07-13T13:57:57.896+05:30I support one view WE need to setup a strong Defen...I support one view WE need to setup a strong Defence-industrial base in india and for that Govt. must include Private as well as Small & meduim scale industries.Bhavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02053108285475331368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-15526094515701910562011-07-13T02:44:07.163+05:302011-07-13T02:44:07.163+05:30Lots of very interesting comments, so I will touch...Lots of very interesting comments, so I will touch on some points not yet covered.<br /><br />1) The Admiral clearly states that Rafale / Typhoon definitely superior (even generationally) to F/A-18E (and by deduction also on F-16IN). Buying an inferior fighter in a threat environment of growing challenges would be irresponsible, whatever the price of the cheaper option.<br /><br />2) Price is important because from it quantities can be deducted, i.e. 200 vs 400 argument. Price knowledge has to be accurate otherwise the whole construct falls apart. The admiral has no insider knowledge of the real prices quoted by the six contenders in the MMRCA project. And if he had, but I am sure he has not, he would be committing a crime in disclosing them. So the prices quoted in the article are his own guesstimates and I would add that they are pretty inaccurate. The Gripen costing slightly less than a Rafale is the most obvious. The fly away price of Gripen is $55m and not $82.2m (I like the decimal point to give the impression of great accuracy!). That is in Canadian Dollars (basically same value as US or 0.965 if you are pernickety). This figure was revealed by SAAB in the Canadian Parliament on Dec 7, 2010 so it is very recent. The flyaway price of Typhoon is probably exaggerated by 70 to 80%. <br /><br />3) In conclusion, when one is using numbers to justify certain constructs one should be careful to use accurate, comparable figures otherwise the risk is to discredit the whole essay.<br /><br />vanadiumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-36005223983922110932011-07-12T19:35:46.193+05:302011-07-12T19:35:46.193+05:30Admiral saw the cartoon space of Air Chief... Now ...Admiral saw the cartoon space of Air Chief... Now he wants also the share of this... so creamy ricgh... pie.. Hhmmmmm...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-18531626214355933222011-07-12T18:10:41.592+05:302011-07-12T18:10:41.592+05:30EFT being $40m dearer than Rafale with 60% less ca...EFT being $40m dearer than Rafale with 60% less capabilities and no roadmap? WOOOWWW<br />Cassidian gmbh got lot of works on this, adds and pdf comercials will not remove the fact they run a expansive old tech poney ..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-70439363099943127702011-07-12T11:52:50.113+05:302011-07-12T11:52:50.113+05:30In today's world, national defense means much ...In today's world, national defense means much more than the armed forces. In fact, the economy and also the contribution of the scientists, technologists is becoming more and more important. The nature of combat is also undergoing significant change. The previous prima donna status of the services in the country no longer prevails. It appears that the process of adjustment for the services is now taking place and we can expect more potshots being taken by the services at other branches of the Government for some more time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-33942301509985027672011-07-12T11:09:20.971+05:302011-07-12T11:09:20.971+05:30Anon @ 10.30, you are clearly from the IAF. You re...Anon @ 10.30, you are clearly from the IAF. You reflect accurately the attitude of the IAF. I would like to humbly submit that all those young people who think that they should only work with the imported best need not join the IAF. The country will find enough people to work with India's best equipment and still take care of the nations interests. Let this message go out clearly, because this issue will not die down till good sense prevails.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-70601858291214856362011-07-12T10:46:13.794+05:302011-07-12T10:46:13.794+05:30The good Admiral also could not avoid discussing p...The good Admiral also could not avoid discussing policy and acquisitions together. In future, serious writers should discuss policy / strategy separately. They should resist the temptation to talk about procurements. Perhaps servicemen are conditioned to seek equipment all the time, mostly imported.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-20188398112150913942011-07-12T09:49:11.012+05:302011-07-12T09:49:11.012+05:30Arun Prakash is a gifted writer, and his style and...Arun Prakash is a gifted writer, and his style and command of the English language is par excellence. I have always found his articles interesting and meaningful. They are rather long, sometimes, but I can still get through them with time for other things. The insights and expertise he has to share are worth reading every article of his.<br /><br />There are a few things I might recommend to the Admiral or anyone else for that matter, and it is high time these points I am about to mention sink in with everybody in India:<br /><br />1. The politician decision-makers are NOT interested in making the military TOO strong. They accomplish this by keeping the military brass off-balance, subject to uncertainty, and often do not release all relevant information to them. This is done by deliberate design to prevent a military coup. So far, the silly, sleazy politicians and their IAS lackeys have triumphed over the smart, arrogant military brass.<br /><br />2. Sorry to say, but the politicians and bureaucrats have little interest or in-depth understanding of things military and strategic despite their vast experience in governance. This includes M Singh, M Ahluwahlia, P Chidam, P Mukherjee, A Antony, and S Gandhi. If they had the understanding, they would have expended billions of dollars in engineering education and indigenous research and production. Perhaps, a nation gets the leaders it deserves: India, for many reasons, deserves no better.<br /><br />3. The politicians wish to spend the least in defense, but spend more on balancing the diplomacy concerning China, Pakistan, Russia, and USA. They hope to offset military expenditure by wishy-washy diplomacy. So far, things have not been militarily that bad -- at least not since 1962. So, this is how they justify themselves. They show that they have kept sovereignty intact for 50 years, therefore implying they must be doing things right, thereby signaling that Indian defense doesn't need more than what it's received.<br /><br />4. Unfortunately, the Indian politicians do not realize that doing things right means getting China out of Tibet and Pakistan out of Baltistan. But a larger, long-term objective is to neutralize Pakistan's nukes, though I don't see at all how that can happen now. It's too bad that that unwise b****, I Gandhi, called off an Israeli strike into Pakistan's nuclear assets in 1982 at the 11th hour after all preparations were done and Israeli pilots were sitting ready for take-off in their cockpits at Indian bases. Now, the time has long gone. India did not strike when the iron was hot, and has never lost an opportunity to miss an opportunity.<br /><br />5. Unfortunately again, the Indian polity is so diverse, and internal politics, disturbances, and influence so plentiful, that India is undoubtedly its own worst enemy.<br /><br />6. One other, last thing: there is a stupid bias in the Indian services that an engineer cannot qualify as a COAS, CNS, or CAS. Good, try fighting a war without engineering! It's also high time that the Indian services at least dropped this bias!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-35829075496961689112011-07-12T08:38:42.844+05:302011-07-12T08:38:42.844+05:30By the time PAKFA and AMCA arrive, the Mig 21s, 23...By the time PAKFA and AMCA arrive, the Mig 21s, 23s and 27s will be gone. That would leave IAF with 29s, M2000s, LCAs, MMRCA and Su30. The PAKFA/AMCA will start replacing the Mig29s and M2000s which means in the light category, LCA will have a clear induction path. In the longer I would like to see AMCA take over from MMRCA. Not too bad in the long term. The short term is nightmarish though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-47951274433052462702011-07-12T04:54:13.815+05:302011-07-12T04:54:13.815+05:30@Major.Srikanth,
I had to smile at your comment ab...@Major.Srikanth,<br />I had to smile at your comment about "being man enough" to state things :-) Very Fauji indeed. I think the reason for the indecisiveness (is that a word? "indecision" maybe?) as you accurately discern in the article is because of what you started your note with. Because of his previous position, the Admiral would need to not be too hard hitting or negative. Overall though, I think it will only do the entire system good if more people like the Admiral would write about issues like this. Although almost everything he says in the article has been discussed before, coming from a man of his stature could potentially lend it more weight and credibility than you or I writing about it. Being an ex fighter jock, albeit of the naval variety, also lends credibility to his comments about an IAF procurement. I am sure you agree with the points he is making. They are essentially correct, when looked at objectively, and most folks would tend to agree, I believe. I've always felt that think tanks and organizations outside of the government with potentially more objectivity would benefit decision makers at the highest levels of the government. We are slowly moving towards that and I look at this article as something that would potentially come from a neutral think tank type organization. I commend the Admiral for voicing his opinions knowing fully well that the obvious retort of a navy man taking potshots at the IAF were sure to follow. If anything, we need more ex-service folks with better knowledge and better understanding of all things defence to step up and advocate change to the system that we all agree the system needs. You sir, could well play a part yourself :-)Chintannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-33144507220587113942011-07-12T04:20:48.912+05:302011-07-12T04:20:48.912+05:30@ Chintan, pls read the article before you comment...@ Chintan, pls read the article before you comment...Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12008442682129748220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-1034722832235594322011-07-11T23:09:25.320+05:302011-07-11T23:09:25.320+05:30There is no doubt that the Eurofighter Typhoon is ...There is no doubt that the Eurofighter Typhoon is performant but in terms of capabilties, Rafale have no equal there. If the Rafale GIE looses this market they might just as well hire Eurofighter technico-commercial geniuses...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-75282264550014058672011-07-11T23:04:30.059+05:302011-07-11T23:04:30.059+05:30@Michael, re "India for some strange reasons ...@Michael, re "India for some strange reasons have always shinned closer ties with the US."<br />Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that the US, for some strange reason has always shunned closer ties with India? Just wondering.Chintannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-87036209861747212842011-07-11T22:30:01.184+05:302011-07-11T22:30:01.184+05:30Easy potshots at the IAF.
Compare the RAF and AdA ...Easy potshots at the IAF.<br />Compare the RAF and AdA with the IAF. Who are the RAF protecting England from - the Scots? 300 combat ac for zero threat at home. Hmm.<br />The IAF has a task set out for it by the GoI. "Supporting" indigenous programmes does not mean inducting them in any state. The service has no doubt that the Tejas needs to be inducted, but if ADA and HAL do not deliver, it has little option but to bid for alternatives.<br />Tejas IOC was much tomtommed in Jan this year. Formation of the sqn was promised in a few months - not even LSP7 has flown to date. NP 1 was rolled out which much fanfare with a first flight promised in September. September holds, the year has shifted. <br />Since the IN is such a firm supporter of indigenisation, no follow on orders for MiG29Ks should have been given, let alone RFPs for the next gen fighter. For the IAF 8 types are too much, but for the IN five types (LUSH, M29K, Tejas N, Hawk, Next gen fighter) is acceptable. Far too slanted an article, in my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-50820702846447229132011-07-11T15:43:16.423+05:302011-07-11T15:43:16.423+05:30...babulog ghotale kaise karenge jab tak foren dea...<i>...babulog ghotale kaise karenge jab tak foren deals nahi hongee :)))</i><br /><br />Babulog do ghotalsa in PSUs and DRDOs. Less chances in foreign deals as that is the forte of politicians. All defence PSU and DRDO are Babulogs..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-2091033792750063752011-07-11T14:31:58.769+05:302011-07-11T14:31:58.769+05:30Its a pretty disappointing article, by a person wh...Its a pretty disappointing article, by a person who held one of the most important post in India<br /><br />Almost all the arguments, problems, what the government needs to do etc etc<br /><br />It seemed more like an article blaming the other forces<br /><br />For a person so senior was looking for an insight a perspective i dint have beforeSarangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-5861954022841059372011-07-11T10:07:08.289+05:302011-07-11T10:07:08.289+05:30I think we all agree with Anon 10:35. Comments sha...I think we all agree with Anon 10:35. Comments shall be highly moderated. By allowing flaimbaits, off-topic banter and jingos we dilute the discussion. Please @Shiv dont let Livefist discussions quality go down.Taraknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-10588259820322843842011-07-11T01:00:20.612+05:302011-07-11T01:00:20.612+05:30Brilliant insight from the Admiral. Thank you Sir!...Brilliant insight from the Admiral. Thank you Sir!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6050542.post-79288423995746615952011-07-10T22:19:39.998+05:302011-07-10T22:19:39.998+05:30@Anonymous 5:13Pm So you think K sounds like T? Th...@Anonymous 5:13Pm So you think K sounds like T? Then why not call Pakistan 'RATistan' which judging by the huge number of terrorists infiltrated in their army is an very fitting name.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com