Thursday, August 12, 2010

MAG REPORT: F-16, MiG-35, Typhoon Make The Cut, While Rafale, Super Hornet & Gripen Don't

After Times NOW's report on the MMRCA a few days ago, try this next one on for size. The latest edition of India's STRATEGIC AFFAIRS magazine has the piece above, which has sources telling it that the Viper, Fulcrum and Typhoon are in, while the Hornet, Gripen and Rafale are finito in India's MMRCA competition. If you can ignore the proof-reading, what technical parameters could possibly put the F-16, MiG-35 and Typhoon above the other three? Any theories? I got nothing.

©Copyright Strategic Affairs Magazine @ August 15 Edition

56 comments :

Anonymous said...

what the hell is going??Now this..damn it..i just wish the mod had confirmed it for us..but alas... :(..guess we can only find this out next year

Anonymous said...

eurofighter or mig 35 all the way!!!!

Karthik Soundarajan said...

Did i read that right?? Rafael is out!! I think this is very poor reporting on the part of SA-magazine, there is no source to this claim. Atleast the earlier report had something credible in form of a report leak? This one does not state any source and is based purely on the wet dreams of some reporter!

The F-16 tops the list? Why would IAF want to merely equal pakistan-AF when spending chunks of money,which means we can get something better. IAF wont sit with the same plain PAF uses this is absurd and i dont even know why the F-16 has been there in the competition all this while,apart from the fact that its a good opportunity to gain a lot of knowledge about PAFs new war bird.

Anonymous said...

I guess the only plane common in all the rumors is the Euro Fighter, so I believe the EF is in.

ravi said...

india should be very intelligent while chossing bw mig-35,typhoon,rafale

ravi said...

hi listen guys the if i have a philosophy here ok
1)india if its bbudget constraints are more and still wants a good cheap fighter then itll be mig-35
2)if quality and a new era wants to be started then itll be typhoon
3)india in this case will either go for U.S make saying that its the best for name sake only to improve its ties ok
hi wat do u say ha!

ADDICTION said...

this is absurd..is the iaf under some pressure..r we plannin to get screwed up??...EF or RAFALE ..nothin else will do..plz nt f xx.

Anonymous said...

@ first comment

What is going on? INDIA that is what is going on.

Ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

This is crazy. f16 is as much a threat to Tejas as Gripen is. It's not just about operating what PAF operating it.

Anonymous said...

It's like how when PakFa images got leaked more fake designs were "leaked" to confuse all with leaks

bryan.tenet said...

Not sure if i would like to believe this, seems like total crap report.How can F-16 Farting Falcon top the list while Rafale miss out ? Only thing which i believe is my dream Eurofighter would win. But if the MOD decides on F-16, then we can be certain that the whole UPA is mole planted by CIA !

Indian Defence Information said...

What to say now. Although the MMRCA process is moving faster than expected but still there are many sources who are giving different details.

Seems Typhoon is still in final list whatever i have read in several blogs and in other sources.

I dont think that government will only choose the aircraft according to the point they have got in trials. Government should go according to requirements of IAF not according to political decision.

Anonymous said...

That article by Shalini Pandey is pathetic.

Whatever Shalini has written about the 6 contenders might turn out to be true (selected/ not selected) but she clearly has no business acumen.

" If India can use MMRCA deal as a bargain point then technology will flow to various Indian military projects without any conditions attached". She needs to look at the F 35 programme before making such outrageous statements. LM will gleefully bankrupt Gates & Co if it can (actually its doing it), so forget fair treatment to India. The CAG report on Derby missile system’s maker is a prime example of what I am talking. How can someone of this calibre become a journo beats me!!!!!!!!
Can she name one defence equipment maker which will not lootofy its own govt while selling arms?

Defence market is always a sellers market (especially so in India) even in a recessionary era. Defence deals are done on the paradigm of "protecting national security & sovereignty" which no one can define. Defence purchases are some of the most corrupt business transactions/practices anywhere in the world, because they are done under the garb of “secrecy”.
This ambiguity is exploited by deal makers, senior execs of defence companies, senior ministers, and senior military personnel. The losers as always are poor tax paying gullible public.

The actuality of a systems final price includes concepts such as material costing, pricing, strategic management accounting, SCM, currency fluctuation etc to name a few for a system which is unique and where Indians have no domain expertise (remember, India does not have an assembly line for making a fighter aircraft on a large scale). This lack of being a subject matter expert (in various areas) will hinder rather than help India in getting to a position of strength for negotiations with a provider. Having a wad of cash does not guarantee the buyer walks away with the most profitable deal. Therefore, whatever deal India does, it will negotiate it as a minor partner. Moreover, the most transparent party (IAF) in this potentially messy affair has effectively has no control over the final outcome. They can’t even complain in public.

Cecx Fable & Gas

Anonymous said...

Looks like the article is paid for by LM, even SH has been mentioned as not making it.

MPatel said...

F16 is a proven platform and imagine the whole production line moving to india.

Bharat-RATshak is for morons said...

hey Karthik Soundarajan, You bharat-RATshak boy. Stop criticising the articles sources. Do you have any better info? I didn't think so. This is what they have obtained. It may not be 100% correct, but thats the risk the journalists take when they are the first to report something. It doesn't mean they are idiots. Jeez, this is why you ratshakers are a nuisance. If you RATSHAKER can do better, why dont you go out there and find the sources and report it so that other people can rely on your skills? You cant, because you're just an arm-chair critic like the rest of the ratshak morons.

I however, agree and hope that the US planes are booted out. Too many strings attached to them. Not worth it in the end.

Anonymous said...

some leaks(if any)seems more reliable than others ..that's all

Anonymous said...

was it not the rumor from day one that the order for 200 would be split into two. This list i believe would fit into that profile, It would be very easy to ditch F-16(which has the most number of reasons to do so from the original 16 aircraft) and then give the bid of 74 to Mig-35 and the remaining 126 to Typhoon.
This way we would keep Russians friends happy as well as get latest technology from Europeans.
-Raj

Anonymous said...

Oh my god... too much confusion...I hope that, Mr Antony dont do Like 40 Plane from each.. so all happy..40*5= 200..

Anonymous said...

If this news is true.. then the winner is obvious it's EF..
F-16 made the list to keep ombaba's nov visit al ismooth..and
Mig 35 to force the EF to lower it's price...

Anonymous said...

LIFAFA Journalism. Dont waste the time on it.

Anonymous said...

I won't take this report seriously.

This is not what is called respectable or investigative journalism. All speculative.

The reporter-cum-analyst-cum-head of armament of strategic Analyst (aka mouthful) is not very impressive in terms of her background or profile. Checkout the following:
http://in.linkedin.com/pub/shalini-pandey/14/81b/537

- nanovacuum

Anonymous said...

Typhoon is the only common plane cited as making the cut in both reports (both reports relied on anonymous sources).
Hornet and Gripen are out in both reports as well. Interesting...

Mr. Ra said...

If it is not real, then it can be a F-16 propaganda.

If it is real, then it can be technically sound, because latest F-16 too can be expected to pass all the tests except its immorality affiliated with the Paki.

Arun said...

I am disappointed.Hope this is not true..F-16 should be out at any cost..On what grounds would Rafale and Super-Hornet get rejected

Anonymous said...

Don't take it so seriously just yet! Rumours aplenty, but you may have a totally different news from the IAF. The only commonality may be the Eurofighter. As far as I know, the Americans are out!

Anonymous said...

westerners thinking that in India everything is possible, so all the Indians should become crazy and go to hell, then few of them (stupid politicians)can enjoy here? under the American umbrella

Anonymous said...

This makes perfect sense. Love it. But must I read it? Incidentally Kar has made a statement in Jane's though I don't see it anywhere else. Maybe that's useful?

Anonymous said...

Either the IAF Selection team is a bunch of laggards or maybe the magazine is hired by US & Russia to showcase their wares in TOP 3.
Either case, I feel the later part is true.
If F-18 has been selected, I might have gone with the report, but to choose F-16, which production line will be closed in a matter of years,is absolutely ridiculous.
This is nothing but a ploy to counter the recent report by Times Now, saying only Rafale & Typhoon are in the race.

Regards
Abhishek.
PS: I hope my worst fears do not come true, since our spinless Finance & Defence minister might scrap the contract to please the Americans & Russians.

Anonymous said...

Typhoon, MiG35 and F16.
What technical parameters for choosing these three?
Answer is "POLITICS."

I do not find any special reasons. Each one represents 3 regions. EU, Russia and USA. India will make a mess out of this MMRCA deal. Our MoD is the most stupidest governmental organization I have even seen. I do not know the reasons for inviting tenders from 6 fighter plane companies, in spite of each fighter planes has different roles. Our MoD is making our nation to role over the shits.
Pathetic!

NJS said...

Every thing is confusing perfectly . but one best is both the news says IAF recommends Typhoon . as in india most of them not interested on US fighter .
No use of selecting mig-35 we have too many russian tech mig29,mig29k, mig 27, su30mki , FGFA-Pakfa . as per F-16 , pak already have it if india selects it, mmrca deal will become useless defense deal of this century . only one best choice is Typhoon or Rafael . Rafael is mentioned it has nuclear capable / 13 hard points / almost ready AESA now by 2012 it will be 100% ready in fighters .
But as per typhoon its informed AESA will be ready only by 2015 . but our IAF chief informed by year 2014 we will receive first jet .

Atleast their is some sense in Times now report , its hard to belive this magazine report . mostly india will move for twin engine jets not f-16 .

Anonymous said...

I can safely guarantee the Americans are OUT! Just wait a little longer and you'll get to know

Anonymous said...

I am really worried, that GOI and Indian army will choose the one, which will pay them extra money. No defense deal in INDIA were clean (Not even deals in any other area, same as CWG )

ajay said...

EXCLUSIVE NEWS
vehicle factory jabalpur will make IFCV with support of other factorys in jabalpur and ordnance factory board given green signal to this proposal.425.38 crore sanctioned for plant and 605.51crore for machine

Anonymous said...

This is perfect choice for MMRCA,but instead of F-16, F-18E/F will make good competition.so that every main weapons supplying continent will try to make lower prices.

Shalini Pandey said...

Reply from SHALINI PANDEY (STRATEGIC AFFAIRS ) to all including anon

Nowhere I have said that the deal is going to a particular product or company. Even when we heard about this that these three contenders have got more markings by IAF over others it was more shocking for us. Yet we have mentioned again and again it is a rumor spread in the official circle of GoI. Therefore don’t make your senseless comments and remain anonymous. I doubt even you have read the story properly before making a comment. This shows your acumen in defence reporting which is fed by defence PR/ company agents and Indian middlemen people to you regularly. First read and comment. This will help you all in life. So stop assuming on your own.

By the way no defence deal in India is done on the basis of competition, fair play, merit. That’s why we believe in our publication that although it appears to be a rumor, but all big powers has been accommodated. In the magazine there are other stories by my other colleagues, go through it then you will realize how MoD functions? I hope you PR fed defence correspondents cartel people change with the time and do a good service to the nation.

Shalini Pandey said...

@anon 7:36 AM

For your information don’t get impressed with anybody in life therefore you are not impressed with me I m glad as I m not born into this world to please you …. When the report has clearly said that it is a rumor so where is the question of confirming it.

My profile in the entire internet and its cheap ventures may not impress you but what I do in my life there is a conviction. And I am able to sustain it what I believe in.

I am not purchased or influenced by arms cartels. I don’t need a certificate from you about my pathetic or not so impressive work. And you better not advise me what journalism is. I know all defence journalists background that how they have made it from crime to defence. And how they hobnob with middlemen and agents .

Btw FYI all defence publications except ours is funded by vested interest .They don’t even understand the “ D “of defence. So mind it. I am replying to you in my name, I have the courage to come in open, and you remain anonymous that shows who stands where ….

Anonymous said...

You f****** who have analyzed the story and have judged on your own that the Americans are taking the deal away.. first try to know how MoD functions and how defence deals are done in India under the regime of Mr Clean that lungiwala antony.. then you will be ashamed of your own country.

Hopefully you will surrender your passport like M F Hussian some day…

Anonymous said...

gripen eliminated again, interesting no ?

Anonymous said...

Hey desh bhakht Shiv arror ,
why are u so worried about who gets the MMRCA contract, and by the way on whose behalf and why are u canvassing, what do you stand to gain by the normal public coming to know which side the deal swings. Dont u think and know there are enough people in the IAF to check which way the deal has to go.

Anonymous said...

Seems like the author has stated her own choices "as head of armament(or whatever she choses to call herself)" to be IAF's choices...maybe someone from LM planted this in her subconscious, a la Inception :) there seems to be no logic in what has been reported and the language, lesser I say about it, the better. I chose not to believe this, the times Now report made more sense.

Anonymous said...

Take my word for it....irrespective of what IAF chooses, either of American planes will get chosen. Reason - During UPA1 our dear prime-mister had a personal agenda of Indo-US nuclear deal which he pushed through despite the opposition. In this term his two personal agenda are Indo-Pak peace and India's seat in Security council. And for second agenda he requires to please US in big way. So whatever IAF may say they will soon see American fighters in their inventory.

Anonymous said...

I would really like the eurofighter to win, not just to get the best fighter. Since american approval is required for the deal to go through, we can get an insight into american policy making, if they are genuine enough to consider us strategic partners to let us have good force projection via the eurofighter or another puppet state to ram down the teens. And if the americans decide to veto, what the europeons can come up with. As far as I see, the emergency on mmrca is on Iaf's part, not goi. If Iaf rushes goi would only order 40 40 su-30 mki from hal. If they really want a good force mix, let them order more tejas mk1. For all the talk about underpowered tejas, both the iaf treasured su-30 mki and mirage 2k are grossly underpowered, even the world's premier light fighter f-16, has as thrust to wt near to tejas mk-1. As far as mmrca, it should be the most flexible fighter, that can transcend well though both 4.5 and 5th generation platforms to last through 2050 with its capabilities. Only typhoon, rafale and gripen fit this bill.

Anonymous said...

I would really like the eurofighter to win, not just to get the best fighter. Since american approval is required for the deal to go through, we can get an insight into american policy making, if they are genuine enough to consider us strategic partners to let us have good force projection via the eurofighter or another puppet state to ram down the teens. And if the americans decide to veto, what the europeons can come up with. As far as I see, the emergency on mmrca is on Iaf's part, not goi. If Iaf rushes goi would only order 40 40 su-30 mki from hal. If they really want a good force mix, let them order more tejas mk1. For all the talk about underpowered tejas, both the iaf treasured su-30 mki and mirage 2k are grossly underpowered, even the world's premier light fighter f-16, has as thrust to wt near to tejas mk-1. As far as mmrca, it should be the most flexible fighter, that can transcend well though both 4.5 and 5th generation platforms to last through 2050 with its capabilities. Only typhoon, rafale and gripen fit this bill.

Anonymous said...

Looks like one of those paid news articles through and through.

Anonymous said...

I would really like the Rafale to win, not just to get the best fighter but because no american approval is required for the deal to go through ..

Anonymous said...

To, Anon @ 11:56 AM,
Firstly u should mind your language.

''then you will be ashamed of your own country.''

What do u mean by this word , bugger then u could be Pakistani .

Anonymous said...

See tne entire reason IAF wants a 'western' a/c is because of superior electronic package, efficient engines and a modern airframe.

Mig 35 though is in a curious position, it's airframe is very good, engines are decent at best (nothing special compared to GE) but electronic stuff a bit lacking.

If they can jugaad an Mig-35 MKI with Israeli AESA radar and missiles, Mig-35 might still score a shock win in this contest.

Personally, I want IAF to avoid US platforms since giving any money to US is equivalent of funding our enemy. By their actions over past few years they have repeatedly proven that they are out primary enemy, although this fact will never be verbalized by either side.

And Eurofighter is a multi-nation euro cluster****. Remember westland choppers? That is how EF will end in India when a two bit Eurocountry decides to withhold critical spares.

So that leaves Gripen, Rafale (needs more powerful engine) and Mig 35. All have good potential, but need some work to live up to IAF's expectation.

BHARAT-RATshakers die said...

@Shalini Pandey, i'm sorry dear. These people who critic you are from a forum called "bharat rakshak" or more popularly called bharat RATshak.. their members known as RATshakers.

You see, everyone from this forum thinks they are better journalists and scientists than what the world has. If you browse through their posts you will see hundreds, if not thousands, of posts calling journalists like yourself names like "DDM" (dork desi media), "LIFAFA Journalists" and other vulgar names.

The only problem is, if they think they are better than you guys, why dont they do any reporting? BECAUSE they are just arm-chair A-holes who find it easier to take shots at others than do any work.

Ignore these ratshakers. They are all over this blog like flies.

I hope these ratshakers die soon because they are an insult to the rest of the nation.

Afterall, how hard is it to say, this reporter is useless with a single post? Its much harder than they think, yet they go on and on bashing journos like yourself.

THESE RATSHAKERS are led by the biggest rats, RAHUL and SHIV. They regularly meet up, drink themselves till they can no longer see (let alone stand) and then they come up with ideas to bash journalists. I've seen them do this at "meetups" which they regularly have.

I would suggest you spread the word in your line of work telling people how bad these ratshakers are making them out to be. The more bad reputation they have, the better. They are like the pakis within our border.

Die RATshakers, Die!

Bharat-RATshaggers said...

@Shalini Pandey

Ignore the RATSHAGGERS that are posting here. Unfortunately, nothing can be done to kill them off.

They are all from the RATSHAK forum where all they do is take cheap shots at journalists and call themselves a "think-tank". Yes, they think about ways to take shots, so it makes them a think-tank.

In 1999, a couple of their members went on tv (because there were no other indian forums on then) so they have been telling people about their "greatness". Nowadays, there are hundreds of indian forums many of whom have been on tv, so nothing about the ratshak hole is special.

take this for instance:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=921387&sid=c5c3196b9ffb9bbc10fa7ee70f7f7e61#p921387

tarun replies with "What a non-sensical news item".. so this tarun has the knowledge to dismiss a report based on his "genius-ness". Its like that all over the forum. Funny thing is, they wont stop quoting "bad" reports because if they do all they can talk about is each other. They are nothing but low life scum bringing a bad name to all indians. They are ratshaggers, they will always be ratshaggers.

So ignore them, and have a nice day.

Shiv from BR said...

Ms. Pandey, Unfortunaately what the above anon have said is all true. We do have meetups to come up with terms to brand journalists like you. We have earnt this reputation and are proud of it. We boast of banning anyone who disagrees with us. What can you do about it? NOTHING. so call us pakis or ratshakers or whatever, we will accept it proudly in the name of bharat-rakshak.

I suggest you join us, or will will continue to badmouth you.

Mr. Ra said...

To remain safe in the hungry world of viruses, India should use either French Rafale or Mig35 with improved Israeli electronics.

Anonymous said...

I have a feeling that it is either going to be F-16 or EF Typhoon. If it is going to be an L1 situation, then F-16 makes. To me it is not so bad as it looks from the comments above. For the following reasons.

1. Look at the other deals that are being disclosed. 40 additional Su-30 MKI s for IAF. So that settles the Russians. They know that MiG 35 is still a Development platform and I am not sure if IAF is going to wait till it gets into production. And going by the way Gorshkov deal went, waiting for the production of MiG35 to start could result in cost escalations by Russians. So while it maybe cheapest now, it may not be when the actual production starts. Also it is not clear if Russian Air Force is going to adopt MiG 35.

2. With a large carrot as MMRCA deal, it could be used to stop the flow of American advanced weapons to Pakis or even dilute the weapons. For instance, US has recently denied giving drone technology to Pakis. Also the F-16s they are going to get are Block 52 probably. And it is not going to be in the same numbers as what India is buying.

3. The current LCA is using GE engines and with the MMRCA deal going to LM for F-16, LCA can have the same engines (if our Govt is able to strike a deal with US govt). So its going to be a huge boost for LCA.

4. EF is a good aircraft but it is European A/c. Europe has never been a committed friend of India. They have sold technology to Pakis as well as Chinese and will sell it to anyone who can pay. US still exercises some control.

5. Look at the PAK-FGFA programme. Who knows what Russia is going to deliver to India. As compared, I would prefer a F-35 JSF.

6. F-16 is a proven warhorse. It is the main stream fighter of Israeli Air Force which defends Israel against its enemies who have European, Russian and other technologies, and they have done it very successfully.

The strategic alliances are changing in this region and we have to align with the US. While they have given technology to Pakis, they would be keen to collaborate with India.

Ofcourse, I am just a common Indian citizen closely following the MMRCA competition and the above were my 2 cents on this debate.

Anonymous said...

Let's approach the issue with a cool head:

Eurofighter - ten tears too late, not much better than F-16, costs almost twice as much, No AESA radar, limited clientelle, hence High Life Cycle Cost

Rafale - See above, much worse. Wasn't it out of the competition last year but pushed back into it by some political mumbo-jumbo?

Gripen - Little toy, worth for nothing, 40% US made anyway. No AESA radar.

Mig-35 - Typical Russian junk, try the maintenance...

F-18 Super Hornet - Excellent AESA radar, highly lethal, althought a bit sluggish. Very expensive.

F-16IN - See F-18 but much cheaper, lowest Life Cycle Cost (over 4000 around the world), conformal tanks, most cost effective. One shouldn't get too emotional about Pakistan flying it. Israel is flying it together with Egypt and Jordan, but the Egyptian and Jordanian birds are pieces of junk compared to the Israeli one (weaponry, Radar, EW, but most of all - pilots who make the real difference). Actually it is an advantage when your neighbours have the same bird - you know your advantage in-depth.

I go for the F-16IN !!

Anonymous said...

@ anon 1:03 PM, 4.22 PM, 7:16 PM

You people are going crazy about just one report. What Shalini Pandey has written it is what she must have got. Why don’t you go and get better reports. We are ready to read it and give our comments. But I know your links and networks and cartel behavior.

You cheap PR fed journos, never try to show your knowledge. You are supposed to take briefings and drink their beer and write. You have no originality in you. Let me tell you that you people should have knowledge of psychology, what is subconscious and what is super consciousness . You must have come to defence reporting by chance. If you wish to believe times now I think you are from that organization only. Who stops you to believe whatever report you come across .

It seems you journo cartels first aligned with Boeing and now with DPR. So stop this nonsense and educate yourself before pointing any finger on other people.

And I certainly know what must have hurt you. It is your false ego and self declared journalistic pride. It appears many people posting their comment on this blog lacks culture and they are living with false ego which should be shattered asap.

Dipanjan said...

ok lets take it one by one :))
hmmm so first comes....
F-16IN : Huhh....I was under the idea that the IAF would like to procure something that can shoot down F-16s.
Mig-35 : If the plan was to bring in some Russian platform...i think this whole FET is just a waste of time(Yipee all my balls are of the same color :))) )


basically the only reason that comes to my mind : This report was published to keep the American & Russians(lobby) quite for the moment.


remember: although both F16 & F18 are both American platforms....the pentagon has been pushing for the F-16.... you know their usual BS...this sale will not hamper the security balance in the region and promote to the security of USA ......blah blah blah...:P