Monday, August 09, 2010

More On TimesNOW's Report On The MMRCA Selection

Spoke last evening to my friend and colleague on the beat Srinjoy Chowdhry about his report on Times NOW to get a better sense of what it was all about, and to clarify some of the stuff left tantalizingly unsaid. Srinjoy's sources tell him the air force has based its trial evaluation report (submitted on August 1) on the overarching and unstated directive that it needs select a "modern western combat aircraft". Read those first two words carefully, because they mean different things to different people in the air force, government and aircraft-manufacturer campaign offices. Anyway, by this frame of reference, according to Srinjoy's sources, the MiG-35 is out because it isn't western or modern -- the IAF definitely doesn't want to squander this opportunity buying more Russian hardware. The F-16 is out because it isn't a modern platform with promising developing latitude ahead of it, they say. Interestingly, the F/A-18 is a "borderline case" according to his sources, who indicated to him that the Gripen is out because it's too much like the Tejas, and buying the Gripen would be to preempt and make redundant the Tejas programme. Significantly, according to Srinjoy's report, the IAF has cleared all six fighters for the next level, but clearly indicated its preference in an order of merit. In other words, a green light for the Rafale and Eurofighter, a yellow light for the F/A-18, and big red for the Gripen, F-16 and MiG-35. Also, it is almost certain that the final order for aircraft will be closer to 200 airplanes.


Anonymous said...

If true, why then even send the RFI and then also the RFP to F-16, MIG-35 and Gripen plus waste all time and effort on trials?

Anonymous said...

If this is true then, Bravo IAF! Good thinking.
The two choices are perfectly good. And lowest bid should win the race. I hope the Indian government takes the decision on the IAF given preferences (Rafale or Eurofighter).

Anonymous said...

to give the impression of fairplay. like india having a parliament.

Anonymous said...

i do not care which one is selected and in what numbers, i just hope the chosen aircraft joins the air force as soon as possible to put a stop to the squadron depletion. dont u all agree with me!!!!

Anonymous said...

Just buy the Rafale-NG-MKI and be done with it. Let the Americans and their paid agents in Indian media whine. I am tired of this procrastination.

Anonymous said...

As I have been saying for many years, if the French agree to MKI the Rafale they will end up winning big business world over.

- Manne

Mr. Ra said...

This deal shall be finalized before Boffors start producing multi role fighters.

MRCA deal is urgent only because Mig21s are depleting and going out of action and Tejas are too slow to replace them. MRCA planes are expected to fill the gap between Su30MKI and Tejas.

As on today these planes appear to be modern and competitive but in reality they are not and no developed country is putting any further money on them for their purchase or development because the future belongs to Stealth and unmanned fighters.

So this contract is URGENT repeat URGENT but not really important, because it is only a stop gap arrangement for the immediate defense of the nation and shall be dealt in that spirit. All the six planes were good for our purposes, if they are really delivered and TOT furnished smoothly.

Anonymous said...

Now that the news is coming out, we also hear unstated directive and motive.

If IAF already knew what it wants, it is very very difficult to see performance of other fighters. by calling all modern aircraft and by doing extensive benchmarking,
IAF developed a yardstick of performance for Indian settings.

We can use this knowledge to fine-tune Tejas.

Good call by IAF. The only thorn in the way are babus and red-tape. Country will benefit if IAF and HAL work closely to fine-tune Tejas.

Anonymous said...

Dear Shiv,
With all due respect to your views in the blog. I would like to remind some of your words post scraping of Armies Artillery tender"To hell with the armies needs". Same way, the US & Russian they will hire media & exert pressure on the government to cancel the deal. AK Anothony is not fit to be called a defence minister.
2) Remember the Mid Air refueller program, when our Finance minister shamelessly asked the Air Force & Defence minister to choose the inferior IL 76 instead of adopting latest tech.
Do you think this Fools(AK Anthony & Pranab Mukherjee) have the guts to stand against US & Russia.

Anonymous said...

200 Typhoons or Rafales - that's heckuva lot of firepower. So 240xSu-30 MKI + 200xMMRCA Typhoon/Rafale will make the IAF v.v.powerful, next only to the USAF in tactical strike capability. Of course this will take years, but in the meanwhile thre will be the MCA and FGFA developments going on.


the future is for stealth..but conventional fights wont be out dated..until the end of the century ..or lets say for the next 50 years..i think the mmrca makes great sense as a deal..
If we go for western technology..then we can create a better airforce...the one with the best of both worlds..

Anonymous said...

So Srinjoy is your source..good going

Spirit of Exuberance said...

The selection of Rafale or Typhoon will hand over latest techs to HAL under TOT agreement but the main question is how much HAL can absorb for indigeneous projects and how much time will it take. Otherwise we`ll see HAL to fully produce MMRCA by 2025 when most of advanced nations will be having F35`s or other stealth manned aircrafts or NeuroN`s, Predators ruling combat skies.

Spirit of Exuberance said...

The selection of Rafale or Typhoon will hand over latest techs to HAL under TOT agreement but the main question is how much HAL can absorb for indigeneous projects and how much time will it take. Otherwise we`ll see HAL to fully produce MMRCA by 2025 when most of advanced nations will be having F35`s or other stealth manned aircrafts or NeuroN`s, Predators ruling combat skies.

Fox said...

Shiv, I thought you were journalist. So what do your sources say that you are now down to quoting other journalists.

As I understand it, there is no source for this, yet it is true. Another wonderful piece from Times Now where Arnab goes about saying "Questions are being asked" or "People are saying"... with that level of journalism, it is quite clear how sound this story is.

By the phenomenal logic of Messers Srinjoy & co, the three knocked out had nothing to do with performance at the trials but parameters that haven't changed before, during or after the trials. I think its truly awesome that the report is based on nothing that came out of the trials.

Since when did journalists become so gullible. True, Typhoon and Rafale are probably the best bets but if the report is as whimsical and based on a presumption of directions from higher up, something is surely rotten in Denmark.

Bottomline: Dont screw the IAF by first creating a false report, then forcing them to choose one not in the set and then crying corruption!

ajay said...

Kaveri engine and DRDO.

1.GTRE working on two-design k9 k10k10 is production variant not k9 if k9 on test bed then it is not optimized for LCA.
2.kaveri have 13% higher thrust (?) then Ge404 it has 78.7 kN so kaveri have to have about 90kn of thrust but it is 15% heavier(which one k9 or k10).
3.ADA awarded a contract to SNECMA or technical assistance in 2006 and now we are in 2010.
4.In 2006 DRDO has reportedly been able to develop single crystal blades in DMRL (Defense Metallurgical Research Laboratory)
6. DRDO working on Thrust vectoring
7. DRDO successfully developed derivative of the GTX-35VS Kaveri engine for ships.

So the thing is
Is the DRDO working very secretly on kaveri and we can be surprised
Or DRDO lacks of clarity and openness in admitting problems.

Anonymous said...


These aircrafts will be in service in twentees and thirties.

Visualise world situation in that time. have a guess at regional envirnmnet at twenties. We can guess what roles USA, China, Russia and European Contries will play in South Asia in twenties and thirties and what will be the likely nature of Security Competition.

In those scenarios, Modern European aircrafts will fit well. Hence the directive " modern European" could fall in place.

I guess that was not the thinking. May be European Contries are better channels..!!

Gautam said...

Considering those criteria 3 of the 5 contenders were unsuitable right from the start. Yet they were included in the tender, flight tests carried out and a lot of time and money wasted. This is how our procurement process works. Sad;looks like the MoD just invited as many competitors as possible for the sake of a 'fair' contest.

The MoD should have just shortlisted Typhoon and Rafale from the start. Then these aircraft would already be in the IAF.

NJS said...

In case India selects western fighters , india will also select the optional 64 or 74 jets for US made jets to cool Uncle sam , so lot of chances to go for 200 nos , a big washout for PAF .

Typhoon or Rafale will be best choice for IAF in all aspects , but should not change the track by US pressure .

Gagan said...

It was obvious that India would not be selecting Russian or US orgin fighters for the MMRCA for some time now.
The fact that India agreed to accept the P-8I and the C-130Js without the latest electronis suites, just because India didn't want to be bound in the CISMOA, would have given sleepless nights to the US aircraft manufacturers, because this was going to have a bearing on their fighters being in contention in the MMRCA. Their worst nightmares are coming true it seems.

As far as the toss up between the Rafale and the Eurofighter is concerned, the Eurofighter is clearly in the lead.
The offer that the consortium of the 4 big european powers have for India if the EF gets selected is simply too good to resist. Consider this: The consortium wants India in as the 5th partner, with a very big share of the manufacturing shifting to india because of lower labour costs here, and a share in development. The EF already has a big commitment from its 5 customers and has a secure development future, besides its AESA is expected to be as good as the 2nd gen US origin radars. Tranche 3 will also make it a truly multirole fighter.
(At this rate, India will be part of the EU before Turkey! Hell, India just got offered to be made an 'honorary white' nation just like the Japanese were made - LOL)

Anonymous said...

hmm, clearly this isn't what the airforce think, they wouldn't choose rafale with its bad radar, they wouldn't choose eurofighter because it's a bad compromise of everything, no i don't believe in that..

Rahul said...

Hey Mr. Ra, dont you get it? The only TOT india ever gets is screwdriver tech. We assemble them and say that it is a learning experience. Why else do we need Turbomeca's help to modify the shakti engine? They made it, we named it and we call it indian.

Our PSUs are incapable of anything. Apart from a few missiles, what product has been made that has been inducted in large numbers? PSUs keep developing things for decades and when it comes out, its obsolete.

Come to bharat-rakshak and learn the whole truth.

Anonymous said...

Notice the carefully worded blog entry by shiv states " .. Significantly, according to Srinjoy's report, the IAF has cleared all six fighters for the next level, but clearly indicated its preference .."

So if the americans start to put pressure on man(less)mohan singh he will probably capsize

Anonymous said...

The EF is more expensive with less capabilities than the Rafale. I hope the Indian gov will follow the IAF report! Rafale is the best choice for India.

Anonymous said...

Excellent news !

Farewell Gripen NG and F-16 LOL

Tejas said...

The F/A-18 borderline case sounds very fishy. Is the IAF trying to please the political bosses by keeping an American aircraft still in the fray?Have to wait and see. And 200 aircrafts is a good number.

Mr. Ra said...

anon@10:29 AM, are you like high or something? you think 400 fighters will make IAF the next best after USAF? Russia has 1,631.. china has around a 1000.. paki people have 700.. so yes, the IAG might have better tech but sometimes numbers also make a difference!

Join bharat-rakshak, you will learn a lot! we are the ratshagers!

Anonymous said...

Hi ... Can I just say that no media report on the MRCA deal can be accurate without access to contents of Top Secret files ... which, more often than not, tends to be difficult to do ... particularly in the case of a high stakes multinational battle which will secure (hopefully) not just India's national security but also the future of some of the competing firms.

Can I assure folks here that the Air Force's present mindset can be paraphrased in the following way ... "Let them write what they want. We have had a job to do (evaluate the jets) and we have done that."

Finally ... can I also say ... without having seen the files myself ... that the report on Times Now was INCOMPLETE if not inaccurate. In other words, some of the firms who may have felt that they had been hacked from the competition can breathe easy, for now.

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor

Anonymous said...

it's still confuse, Rafale is a way ahead technically in R&D than the euro stuff wich owners countries doesn't want no more or will not build anymore, Swiss evaluations shown that close germany eurofighter was out from the start, failing on basic purposes!

NJS said...

I think Octopus Oracle is still in germany , may be he knows the result of MMRCA

Maximus said...

The report on the report seems to be the handiwork of amateurs peddling stale gossip. After such intensive trials, if this is what IAF is going to come up with is that we should not buy MiG 35 because we are afraid of Ruskies, not buy American because it is dated and not buy Swede because it is like the Tejas, we all need their heads examined. I was under the impression they were to take calls on performance, capability, radar, load, thrust, et al. The report is a joke, specially if on such flimsy grounds we will be debating our choice of aircraft. How come the report does not say as to who was better? And the Typhoon didnt take off in Leh, so how is it counted in?

Shiv Aroor said...

some dimwits here have enlightening things to say about sources and stuff. you know where to shove your insecurities :P

mathi man said...

Overall glad that the MIG -35 is out. MAy be the russian defence mafia structure is being destroyed in india

Anonymous said...

the eurofighter should be knocked out coz it is primarily an air-air platform...ground attack has only been recently added..that to in limited is not a multi-role fighter from the design up......

rafale should win....

Anonymous said...

"Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor

not accurate ?

Anonymous said...

Everyone talks about western relations,but we cant trust any western nations,because they are controlled by USA.USA will always try to put some restrictions on many new technologies especially Aesa radar etc like Gripen NG.what if situations changes to 1998 nuclear test scenario so they will put economic ban so that we can't upgrade.we will waste 10-15 billion dollars of ordinary people tax like P-8I ,C-10,C-130J.we cannot trust any western nation.we can trust only Russia.If IAF doesn't like MIG-35 we can opt for Other superior aircraft like SU-35BM.Russia didn't say they wont supply superior aircraft.Russia always help India in may occasions.If we want to develope our own aircraft we have to collaborate with Russians only.Don't trust western.according to me we should go forward with Russians not western.we cannot trust France because of mirage 2000 upgrade scenario.Russia is also making situation complicated,but we pressurize them to act.Russian technology is not inferior to both western and USA in aircraft field.We may invest with them in developing new technology.we have manpower but not enough funds like Russia. opt for Russia not USA or western.

Mr. Ra said...

Fox, you are from bharat-ratshak aren't you? You rat-shagger morons come here to criticize Shiv and Ajai. Screw you, go back to your hideout where you guys can talk all the BS you want. This is for normal people, not ratshakers!

BR sucks said...

@maximus.. you pretty ratshak boys are all over the place like flies. Go Maximise yourself at the ratshak website and let the real people handle their sources.

The only joke here is you. Go RATshak yourself fast.

Anonymous said...

Pakis are busy rubbing journos egos to take a dig at BR with BR names. How predictable !

Anonymous said...

Pakis are busy rubbing journos egos to take a dig at BR with BR names. How predictable !

Spirit of Exuberance said...

Such news of elimination of aircrafts from race had been making rounds since years. But now the field evaluation is completed and any news coming from IAF personnels or MOD peoples can be credible. All the aircrafts on offer are very much suitable for the IAF and can perform their tasks. People here shall stop blaming each other, whether its VS or BR, cause atleast you have got some news on this blog which you dont.

amanda huggenkiss said...

anon@1:54 AM
the only paki here is you. Just because we are indian doesnt mean we have to love the ratshak forum.

Have you even been there? The kind of nonsense they go on and on about as if they are masters of it all is nauseating!

If you like that kind of nonsense, go there.. noone wants you here.

Bharat RATshaker said...

@anon 1:54 AM
There are many indian forums out there. BR isn't the only one. However, BR is the only one that claims to have "quality" and "people with real knowledge". Their arrogance knows no bounds.

You are speaking like a paki, if you dislike anything paki they will call you a "bhindian".. Indians aren't like that, we are free to express our views. And BR is a shoddy place unless you are taken by the fancy word play that goes on there.

Anyone with time and patience can do what every member does there, google, read, post links, and paraphrase!

Noone talks about other indian forums badly because they dont have stupid gay rules and members who go on taking the mickey out of every journalist. If they think they are so great why the hell do they sit at home and post stuff when they can go report and "show" people who it should be done? Because they are just is cheap. BR is cheap.

If you like them, thats your prerogative. Just dont push their agenda here. This is NOT BR.

Anonymous said...

ToT is mostly meaningless because HAL is hampered by their low quality workforce. When they talk of ToT what they really mean is some videshi will build an idiot proof factory for them, from which they can make duplicate copies for another 100 years.

HAL does not even have brain like Chinese who at least have proven they can reverse engineer.

Indian Defence Information said...

We should go for either rafale or typhoon coz they are advansed western fighters and had performed their task successfully. The reason that why we should not go for F-16 because americans wont be ready for full tech transfter and pakis have the advansed f-16's already and they are looking for more.

But we also have to prefer past relations with our friend rus and should concentrate to keep the same relation with them which is imp for our future projects like FGFA and multirole transport aircraft.

But still it depends on our useless govt which still has the fear of US.

I dont hv much knowledge abut our external affairs but still hope our air force will get better fighter jet which will fill the gap between su-30mki's and Tejas.