Monday, May 30, 2011

Eurofighter Gets Its Big Political Push In Delhi Tomorrow

After the French scored some pretty solid brownies last week by declaring that they were putting on hold the supply of heavy military items to Pakistan, German chancellor Angela Merkel lands in Delhi tomorrow to lobby for the Eurofighter Typhoon, one of two finalists in India's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter competition. Last week, French defence minister GĂ©rard Longuet (who was here to lobby for the other finalist, the Dassault Rafale) sniped the Typhoon's multi-nation heritage, saying, "We are one country, and we have enjoyed a relationship since 1953. Dealing with one country you know well, I imagine, is better than dealing with four countries. It is just simpler." Merkel arrives amidst reports that the commercial bids of the two contenders will be opened as early as next week. More tomorrow.


Anonymous said...

AKA is in unenviable situation, caught between the devil and the sword.Russians as per reports got peeved at being rejected!!! Hope we will not make enemies every where!!!!

Anonymous said...

aahhh finally. it felt like the french were getting all the attention. go typhoon!

viperzzzzz said...

y shud russians be peeved arnt they happy with the pak fa deaaaaaal

india shd modenize the army the same way and get airborne warning systems
and get used aircrafts in numerous numbers so we make our fleet bigger and the solve the squadron problems we have

Anonymous said...

Merkel has 1/3 of cassidian germany eurofighter, she cutted orders, blocked overuning budget in this relic, and cassidian gmbh 1/3 of Cassidian the defence harm of EADS who is only(1/10) of revenue has big deficit on eurofighter and A400M debacle!

So IAF aren't idiots, they knows about choice they have to make , a full integreted modern omnirole fighter of €60m for 126/ 11b or a no backed, cold war relic that can drop a bomb , with a old mecha radar gen with no roadmap on upgrades of €90m for 126/ 15b, will the germans could put for india 7 billions on offset as a gift to india for a 1/3 owned plane they for years cutted any developments because its too expansive for them to buy it and even more to operate?

Merkel has more chance to convince india to give up nuke energy! lol

Anonymous said...

I seriously hope that the IAF goes for the Typhoon.
I'm not biased against the Rafale but the Typhoon still has a LOT of development left in it and is clearly the superior aircraft. The EJ200 engine is also superior and can be refined and improved further as well. With AESA and the Meteor, the Typhoon will be beyond deadly in the air against any opponent bar the F-22. Strike capability may yet mature to be quite robust. The Typhoon is also cheaper to operate.
On the downside however, the Typhoon is very expensive and very messed up with Euro-politics. Not to mention the Saudis will give the Pakistanis a ride when ever they want in it. Also, very little of the real tech would be transferred to India as Eurojet still gets a lot of parts from the US.

I'm eager to see the deal conclude but I'm crossing my fingers for the Typhoon as I was certain the F-18 would make the cut and was eliminated. I imagine in this round, who ever bids the lowest would win and since Rafale is desperate, they will bid low.

Anonymous said...

France can takeover the areas where we were seeking assistance from the Russians. Hence, even if EF wins the MMRCA, we need to swap our Mirage 2000s with Rafale instead of upgrading them. It will be pound foolish penny wise if we opt to upgrade Mirage 2000 for 50 million $ a piece. Btw, our attack fighters like Mig27 (regularly falls off the sky) and Jaguar have reached stage of obsolescence. Rafale excels as a strike fighter. Hence induction of Rafale will also help in retiring our aging fleets of Mig27 and Jaguar.
Purchasing EF and swapping Mirage2000 with Rafale will ensure deeper strategic ties with Europeans who are not prone to emotional tantrums or imposing sanctions at a drop of a hat. said...

Rafale Rafale & Rafale

Mr. Ra said...

All the specifically superior tasks attempted to be ascribed to EFT can be better performed by Su-30MKI.

So Rafale is in the best position to replace the old Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Jaguars amd M-2000 in a modern and longstanding manner.

Ravi said...

I think IAF wants Typhoon as they believe its more capable fighter of the two short-listed. So I hope that IAF gets what it wants.

Anonymous said...

My money is with the Rafale for this 126+54 (or 74) plane deal for the following reasons

1. France is really really hungry for an export order. The French bungled up on Morocco and Brazil simply did not have the money. The only possible candidates are UAE and India. UAE wanted a more powerful M-88 (9 ton thrust) and the French Defence Minister apparently asked for $2 Billion to cover the development. UAE is now looking at other options. That leaves India only and given the fact that the unit cost of the Rafale (made in France) is $80-$85 M compared to the $115-125M for the EF, the French are bound to be L-1. Rafale production is around 10-12 a year as the French want to keep the line open given that only the French have ordered this plane yet. The Saudis have recently bought 72 EF's with a promise of more and Japan is also tilting towards the EF-so it's order book is not empty-not to mention the fantastic four who back the EF. Hunger makes folks do a lot of things and in this case may make the French price their equipment reasonably (French equipment reasonably priced...nice joke)

2. The IAF apparently find the EF to be more capable than the Rafale (open to questioning) but the IAF also swear by French equipment so taking on something new (the EF) for such a huge requirement may be too risky for the IAF.

3. The EF-an excellent Air Superiority platform, is still to mature in the A2G role. Another sore point is the AESA radar-the Rafale has a 1100 element GaS/GaN AESA radar as we discuss in its nose-the EF will only get one by 2015. Though the EF AESA will be more powerful when it comes (the size of the nose sigh..) I do not think the IAF will be willing to wait again for an AESA given the urgency around this requirement.

But either way-we are going to pay through our nose to maintain these birds-the Rafale (if it wins) won't be selling a lot, so the French are sure to price spare parts accordingly. The EF (if it wins) will be more costly up-front and comes with the challenge of sourcing spares from 4 countries.

The silver lining-With 200 of these birds in IAF and the 272 MKI's by 2017, the Porkies and the Chinkies can watch us do the lungi dance.


Anonymous said...

Angela Merkel comes to India as a sales person. Sprechen sie English, Bitte! I doubt it. The problem with the EF is that its made by a consortium of 4 major European countries, 3 of them of the Euro and 1, the UK not. If India bought the Euro, they would have to deal with the issues that these 4 major European powers have and also not to forget the US by association. The US of course has the closest ties with these 4 countries more than any other. It is not far-fetched to imagine that the US can influence the minds of the leaders of these countries, especially the UK what with their 'essential' relationship. Thanks but no thanks, we would rather deal with one country that is arrogant enough and has the balls to separate itself from the rest of the pack, i.e.; France. The Rafale has all of the capability that India is looking for in its current air force deficiency list. There is also a high chance of future military pacts with France to develop next generation weapons. Besides, French is much more elegant than the teutonic German. ;-) Je parle Francais, Oui?!

Anonymous said...

These germans and brits have denied selling guns to our armed forces on kashmir and gujrat issue, while they come here shamelessly to beg for our money!

No French don't have any hypocracy like germs and brits, we should go with them. They didn't mind when we made changes on M2Ks for nuke delivery, which would have been big issue with brits and germans.

Plus Rafale though being smaller can carry 22000 pounds of payload, more than double its own weight. While ef being slightly bigger can just carry 16,500 pounds that too with just 3 wetpoints and just one 1000L fuel tank. While Rafale can carry AtoG, AtoA + 6000 litres of fuel tanks which means it can take off from bangalore strike karachi and come back with refuelling.

the terminator said...

I don't want to root for any of these two fighters. Both are equally good. Anyway better than the others that were offered. What GOI and MOD should do is look into all the ramifications such as which of the two is technologically superior, have lots of room for improvement, price and overall operating costs, the actual TOT offered with regards to engine and radar and the least of the above criteria should be strategic because it is dependent on foreign relations.

The final say should be with the IAF and India should not go for refurbishment of the mirages at USD50 million a piece. It is better and prudent to spend those billions on new aircrafts.

Anonymous said...

We should see that the relationships are good with both manufacturers.This way we can block major technologies to china and the porkis. If eurofighter is inducted along with rafale DRDO,HAL and other agencies will get an opportunity to learn a lot for our future developments.The IAF should think about it.

Anonymous said...

"The EJ200 engine is also superior and can be refined and improved further as well"

the fan lacks variable camber inlet guide vanes, no upgrades planed, no roadmap for the 89kN ej200!

in 2013 Rafale will fly a 91kN engine, only 20% parts change from the actual M88, to the end of this year the first RBE2 AESA radar production serie Rafale will be delivered!

German's peaceniks are great about blah blah!

Anonymous said...

Typhoon is too short legged for war against China.
And Germans would remove support and spare parts to India as soon as things go HOT!

Anonymous said...

\\\the Typhoon still has a LOT of development left in it

It is because it is very late behind schedule, EU nations don't want to pay for new equipments (modern radar, thrust vectoring).

\\\The Typhoon is also cheaper to operate.

This is a big lie because Eurofighter Typhoon is the most expensive fighter to operate after the F-22.

Typhoon costs 74 000 Euros per fly/hour according to the Luftwaffe.,1518,714332,00.html
And £70,000 per hour according to the Royal Air Force.

Sustaining full pilots training or air combat operations with a fleet of Typhoon is simply impossible. No country can afford this gigantic cost. This aircraft is nothing but trouble for the owner, not so much for the enemy.

Sanem said...

I'd say

* Rafale = numbers, full technology and very strong link with France

* Typhoon = quality and strategic partnership with 4 EU countries

tough choice for India. I'd cheer for the Rafale, but go for the Typhoon because India already has Mirages and other French hardware

Bhavin said...

Hey, Big Show in Delhi these days.

Bhavin said...

Anon @ 1:49PM >>>> I agree with you..

Anonymous said...

Any Images of Arudhra Radar ?

Anonymous said...

Here is one possibility.

MOD might switch from Mirage upgrades to replace them with Rafale purchase and buy 1 new Rafale squadron over and above this. The balance would be EFT.

Then for the the follow up order [76 ac], make equal purchases again.

Now this does not make sense but thought I should put it out anyway.

Anonymous said...

Is it wise to upgrade 51 Mirage 2000s for Rs. 14,000 crore when the IAF can buy spanking new Rafales by spending some more money.Decision would be very tough but somehow there is a feeling among the IAF circles that Rafale will be preferred over the Typhoon . Moreover it might be an L1 bid favouring the French jet over Eurofighter.

Anonymous said...

Mr Arror pls provide some information on this new drdo radar.

Anonymous said...

Read this (credit poster 'rafter' on Pakistan Defense). He is quoting Dr. Carlo Kopp of the Air Power Australia website.

"Dr Carlo Kopp , an internationally renowned combat aviation specialist, deems the Typhoon, a non-stealthy, short-range (300 nautical miles) air defence/air dominance fighter optimised for transonic manoeuvres, more a “lemon” than a “demon”. Italian Air Force Chief Gen. Vincenzo Camporini, moreover, declared in 2008 that this plane was incapable of an “attack role in an economically sustainable manner”, in part because EADS has no AESA radar. It hopes to develop one with the infusion of Indian monies if Typhoon is selected. Realistically, India will not get the strike variant until well into the 2020s as the Royal Air Force and the German Luftwaffe, for starters, will have the first lien on it. In short, for over a third of its lifetime, the IAF will have to make do with the more limited air defence version which, in effect, is an avionics-wise souped-up, ergonomically improved, MiG-21! Moreover, to expect timely, coordinated, supply of spares and service support from 20-odd countries (including Croatia!) roped into the Eurofighter programme will be a compounded logistics and maintenance nightmare.

Rafale is a smaller, semi-stealth plane with slightly better un-refuelled range than the Typhoon but, equipped with the RBE-22A AESA radar, can undertake ground attack, including nuclear weapon delivery. Critically, it has finessed the algorithm (patented, incidentally, by an Indian scientist) for more effective fusion of data from numerous on-board and external sensors (such as satellite) better than the Eurofighter. Except, as late as 2009, Rafale was ruled operationally inadequate perhaps because it is less agile in “dogfighting” — a role the IAF brass remains enamoured with long after advanced tactical missiles have made close-quarter aerial battle history. "

Anonymous said...

Its up to indians choice, Wishes, fantasms and lot of shoulda, woulda, willa from cold war overpriced relic against Facts and realities as this report article talks out!

Tako Nada said...

India should incorporate best features of Rafale and EF and produce new generation jet with ll round should take time but we can gain from direct technology purchase from europe:)If only one jet choice I will go with Typhoon because its relatively younger jet.

Anonymous said...

Shiv sir, IAF will induct first Arudhra MPR radar developed by DRDO on Friday. Waiting for some details and pics from you.

Emil said...

i also like the euro it better than F - 16 's