Wednesday, August 10, 2011

New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot


This very interesting advert for the Gripen NG appears in the current edition of India's biggest news magazine, India Today. It says a lot of things. One, it appears three months after the Gripen was officially eliminated from the Indian MMRCA competition. Two, and more interestingly, Saab's creative concept has shifted away from simply highlighting the Gripen's virtues (also of "autonomy" and "independence"), and now takes a direct shot at the two finalists in the competition -- the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale -- on cost and stated capability. In short, Saab believes it still has a chance, and this fight isn't finished.

In one part, the advert says, "Performance counts when aircraft are in the air, defending the skies. Unfortunately, too many fighter aircraft are either sitting on the ground because they are too expensive to fly or simply do not have the capabilities that they were touted to have." Ouch.

Also, "[The Gripen IN] has taken the essential philosophy behind the Gripen to the next level, making it a fighter of the latest generation priced at less than half of its peers and operating at a fraction of the cost." The folks at Saab know all too well how delicate the next step in the MMRCA selection will be -- the opening of bids and toss-ups against a benchmark price, understood to be ready and defined.

It gets better. The ad goes on the declare "Today, India has a choice". Hmm, yep -- between the Typhoon and Rafale, right? Well, there's nothing official about it, but it's been rumoured for a while that the four companies that were eliminated three months ago from the Indian MMRCA fighter competition (including Saab), have been "asked" to stick around in the country. The applicability of the aphorism "it ain't over, till it's over" to Indian defence contracting is well known. And it has much to do with what some see as a track that runs parallel to the ongoing selection process. A track that appears to internalize the possibility of complete chaos, forcing a Plan B. Imagine that.

62 comments :

Anonymous said...

The only problem with the gripen is its american engine and americans are known for their spoil sports what do you think shiv

Nikita said...

Well, useless noise and money spent for nothing. Gripen IN did not fulfill IAF QRs, don't they understand this basic fact? Btw Gripen IN is just a prototype, at least Rafale and Typhoon fly and fight already today because they do exist! Paper aircrafts do nothing but buzz in medias.

Anonymous said...

from the ad: gripen was designed to be an aircraft to solely defend our independence.
then why so many foreign components ? even the engine (the most important part of a fighter) is not swede !

Anonymous said...

The downselect was technical. If the price is above the IAF benchmark, the earlier 4 will get right back in. Yes shiv this will lead to screams and counter screams.

In case that happens, while I do agree the nation should not pay for anything that is overpriced, it should also not take anything that its own air force has classified as inferior.In such a situation I am for scrapping of this rubbish and going ahead and fast tracking Tejas or, get some more souped up sukhois.

Setting a 'must begin design and development by' date and a 'must definitely finish and get FOC by' date for the AMCA would also not be such a bad idea.

And yes off topic but let the private sector have a share of the aviation pie.

Anonymous said...

hahaha....this should be fun!!!

Anonymous said...

chances are less for a comeback

KVR said...

I always wanted the Gripen to win. The problem - as mentioned above - is the American engine! Even in the days when the Viggen was being offered for the DPSA, Volvo who made the engine was vetoed by the US Not to participate. Anyone who has seen the Farnborough or other videos of the Gripen know about its maneuverability and now load carrying capacity. I have a feeling that the Babus will end up selecting the most expensive option TYphoon

Anonymous said...

http://www.gripen.com/ -- webpage doesn't exist!!!

Anonymous said...

Sorry for going off the topic. Shiv can you post about China's Aircraft Carrier starting Sea Trials. We are still waiting for Gorshkov to be delivered!!

Kos said...

i think whats going to happen is that they will open the commercial bids for all 6 fighters just to get competitive bids from their original choices, typhoon and rafale. in the end the decision will be between these two only, just that the competitive bids being for cost control...

Anonymous said...

When we have Tejas MK1 and Tejas Mark-II we dont' need a Gripen.

Manish Kumar said...

We desparately need a cheap fighter to fulfill the dwindling numbers of existing fighters and depleting squadrons. Gripen is an excellent choice. what we need are numbers. Our own Ex Chief quipped that in between all the 6 finalists there is unnees - bees ka fark hai. All are excellent and potent fighters. For that matter MIG 35 is also an excellent choice if Russians start mass production. At the price of 1 Typhoon we can have 1.75 Gripens or MIG 35. No need for going for the ultimate fighter that is too pricey. Remember our Tiny Gnats against Sabres. IT IS NOT THE MACHINE THAT COUNTS BUT THE MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE THAT COUNTS. Remember Swedes have developed Gripen on their own and they can help us in our own indegenous programs. Fully agree with the Gripens Advt.

Anonymous said...

SAAB got printed on paper that the americans wont stop the sale of Gripen due to the engine.
Besides, the US offered practically the same engine in the F/A-18

Deepak Datta said...

Eurofighter and Rafales may be flying today against an already neutered Libyan air defenses, thanks mainly to the American technological superior assets. In fact, Libyan operation came in handy to test their weapons while they are protecting the civilians. Eurofighter is having a tough time due to breakdowns and lack of spare parts.

Here is a suggestion, buy F35, World's ONLY fifth generation multi-role Stealth fighter aircraft, equipped with the World's most powerful AN/APG-81 AESA radar and electronic warfare platform. The radar is currently replacing all AESA radars on the F-22 after a F35 reportedly "jammed" its AESA radar. Nothing comes close. 

A Eurofighter, SU30MKI, upgraded Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2s, Rafales would be toast before any of these fighters could even detect an F35-Joint Strike Fighter. F35 is the ticket for India to create a World Class Airforce ready for J-20s, SU 30MKK's of PLAAF, F16-Block 52s, J17-Thunders of PAF.

It simply makes no sense to induct even a single NEW 4.5 generation aircraft with no AESA radar as of today,  that supposedly is going to serve for at least 4 decades, when you can induct a Fifth Generation Stealth Multi-Role Fighter which might be the last manned aircraft before we transition to UCAVs. I would not even go into the PAK/FA T-50, the FGFA being developed by Sukhoi (25% HAL- I doubt it, because the protypes were already flying when India joined in) because I believe India has already committed to it.

Let us see, Rafale so far NO customers besides French Navy and the Air Force. 

Eurofighter is bought by the 4 countries that developed it and even there is no guarantee of them buying the tranche 2 and 3's., especially after Libyan operations. Except Germany, rest of the three nations have signed for F35s

Saudi Arabia has signed up for 72 Eurofighters as an inducement to have the UK's Serious Fraud Office to discontinue its investigation in the BAE Systems' alleged £60 Million bribery to senior Saudi officials in the al-Yamamah contracts in 1980's, under which BAE had supplied 96 ground attack Tornadoes and 48 air defence variants, along with 50 jet and turbo-prop trainers. Plus remember, Israel has ensured that Saudi Arabia and/or any arb country would not receive F35s. So they have no choice other than 4 or 4.5 Gen fighter aircraft.

Austria, which originally ordered 24 Eurofighters, reduced that number down to 15.

It should be an eye opener that Rafale or the Eurofighters could not initiate operations in Libya, until after US forces had "sanitised" the country of all air defences, which were old Soviet vintage. So much so for the 4.5 Generation aircraft.

I would not discount a possibility of Gripen to tie up in some capacity with the LCA project to share some technologies.

sjjs12 said...

We should go in for the new American offer regarding the JSF. It is the latest and also value for money.

Deepak Datta said...

@ Anonymous 6:37 PM

Russia has fulfilled a promise to China to delay Gorskov until after Varyag is launched. This is an old story. With NATO's continued expansion towards its borders, China is much more important to Russia than India. Teams of Russian engineers are collaborating on the J20, just as they did with the previous Chinese aircraft.

What we need to do is to find all satellite triggered GPS transponders being hidden on the Vikramaditya by the Chinese spies. In the time of hostilities, those transponders would be turned on via a satellite signal for an extremely short period, long enough to send an encrypted burst of exact GPS coordinates of the Vikramaditya location. Mind blowing isn't it?

Aroop Gohain Baruah said...

I think both Rafale and Typhoon are too costly, instead SU35 with AESA radar should be ideal for us as it can use the same infrastructure as MKIs. Also it has a lower rcs than MKIs.

Gautam said...

Given the astronomical per-unit costs, why not go for the F-35 anyway? At $140-150 million apiece it's only slighly more expensive than the latest orders for Su-30MKI and far more capable than any of these. And it's also the most future proof.

I guess the MOD is afraid that if the IAF already has a medium-class 5th gen fighter like the F-35 the AMCA program will lose its importance, just as LCA lost importance due to delays which is what originally led to MMRCA...

Anonymous said...

How exactly does one interpret the term "India's biggest news magazine"? Is it by layout size, the size of the paper it is printed on, or the circulation/readership figures?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Aroop Gohain Baruah: Till today no one of authority has stated that the Su-35 will have an AESA-based MMR. Secondly, the Super Su-30MKIs will have the AESA-based MMR far before the Su-35 can be expected to. Thirdly, how have you concluded that the Su-35 has a lower RCS than the Su-30MKI?

Anonymous said...

@Deepak Datta "It should be an eye opener that Rafale could not initiate operations in Libya, until after US forces had "sanitised" the country of all air defences"

Completely false.

Rafales were operating in Libya before the Americans decided to launch cruise missiles.
Rafales conducted on their own numerous strikes against Libyan air defenses and without US assistance.

Deepak Datta said...

An F35-JSF with a MBDA Meteor, world's only ramjet BVRAAM, would have no analogue in the whole hemisphere.

Bye-bye J17, J20, F16-Block 52. Let us be smart and invest in the right technology that luckily has become available.

Acrobatics - SU30MKI, PAK-FA
Hunter-Killer - F35

There would be no air-to-air dog fights in the future, it is the BVR world out there. Who ever sees first, shoots first and be gone survives to fight another day. Let us grab US's extended hand of strategic friendship. There is a dragon and its proxy hanging out there.

Anonymous said...

to manish kumar:-

If you say that its the man behind the machine...then there are lots of 2nd gen fighters available for crore a piece so go and buy 42000 aircraft's.....

Bhavin said...

First of all i may agree or disagree with people commented here over their view. Every one has their own mind set behind it & actuly comments are appriciable-nice study work can be seen.
I may go somewhat off track justifying your views.
Things starts years back when F16 & F18s were to be rolled out & tense atmosphere between USA & Russia. As we all know defence industry is satallite (main end user industry) in USA & all small-medium-big industry depends on them. In compition to sell weapons, USA has used its internation position & pressure. During that time Israel was developing a multirole aircraft LAVI, USA also was involved in the project, unfortunately project was closed due to tremendus pressure from US. Bcoz they wanted to sell F series to Israel & thy finaly did it. Otherwise LAVI would be the most lethal aircraft in the world today. Moreover it would be included in Indian Airforce too.
The same thing they are doing rightnow with us. They have offred F35s to affect our FGFA & AMCA programs. But we denied. Gripen was 2nd try to make us their indirect dependent. US has very bad tendency to play bad politics after making you dependent. Weapon sell was the main aim of Obama's last visit bcoz it might creat many thousands of jobs & provide bussines to over 700 vendors. US now is in worst economical crisis & weapon sell is only option to save own's self. People really don't know about F22s & F35s, reality is far different then what all media spread. US stealth fighter programs are biggest blunders. The performance expected in all aspects are not full filled & are not upto the par. And only thatswhy US firms were not FEELING WELL after KNOCK OUT.
I have BIG respect to Gripen program. Problem against choosing Gripen was it' single (& american) engine and lots of foreign parts specially american parts. But many plus points like world's most sophisticated mission computers, combat readiness, least deployment time, usable on airstreeps, low initial costs, low life cycle costs.
We might buy it if Volvo engine & some other subsystems from non US or Neutral allies.
On other hand, Typhoon has same story as F22s&F35s. They are costliest and in life cycle-they are WHITE ELEPHANT.

Strongly agree with MANISH KUMAR's arguments regarding to Sabres&Gnats.
Also agreed with DEEPAK DUTTA's reply to Anon@6:37.

Presently indian defence agencies are in very critical stage. Rafale comes out as a best option in MMRCA race in ToT & costs too (unless bueraucrates finallize white elephants & again make us GULAMs of British !!! Isn't it?).

And last but not the least, India HAS TO develope its own strong defence industrial base & for that Govt HAS TO allow industrial gaints and MSMEs. As we know many projects are in pipeline like BAE HAWKS, Su30 MKI, MMRCA, LCA, in first priority and future developments FGFA, AMCA, LCH, LUH, REGIONAL JET, TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT etc. And upgrades & overhauls are remaind thr. I think HAL can NEVER provide products timely and with highr quality levels. Without private industrial support we can be self reliant in near future (if politicians & bureucrate want). Govt has to snatch away dicision making powers from bureucrates and give all independent powers to Armed forces.

Bhavin said...

agree with Anon@10.00

Rafales performed on their own.

Shubham said...

@Anon 10 pm: completely agree with: Deepak has got it absolutely wrong there. It was indeed the Rafales that neutralised the Libyan air defences much before the US launched its cruise missiles.

Mr. Ra said...

Gripen has been emboldened by the fact that even after months of toiling in the empty skies of Libya, EFT and Rafale could not drive out a single political or military objective.

Gripen also knows that F-35 would have faced worse fate in this scenario. Obviously with lower fuel consumption, Gripen might have fared well at Libya.

However in MMRCA, Gripen is only a replacement of Tejas-Mk2 which nobody may like to prefer.

So it is better to keep up the demand for illusive F-35 to maintain the pricing pressures on EFT/Rafale.

Anonymous said...

If the LCAs would have been operational in adequate numbers the IAF would not have gone for the MMRCA acquisition. Provided the Rafale and the Typhoon turnout to be overexpensive than the stipulated benchmark there is a distinct possiblity of the Gripen being selected.

Nikita said...

$140-150 milion for one F-35 or rather $60-70 million? Please Deepak Datta, explain us once again why the Only Fifth Generation Fighter In The World will be far less expensive for foreign customers than for the USAF.
Btw, do you know that all 20 development fleet of F-35 is currently grounded for more than a week, and the entire fleet of F-22 since May? So much so for the so-called 5 th generation aircraft.

Makapaka said...

I think Anon @10.00 pm is right, the French sent some Rafale to attack Libyan air defense before the US fired their first Tomahawk cruise missiles (and much before the US sent any aircraft), so pretending that the Libyan airspace was mainly sanitised by the US is a serious deviation of the reality.

Anonymous said...

If i was chief of air staff i would reject the rafale and typhoon and go with 250 Grippen NG with GE 414 EPE engines. I would keep atleast 150 on Chinese border giving great ground support to the troops. These planes require the shortest runway and thus hangers can be carved in the front line hills where 800 meters of runway can be created and thus these planes are hidden from shelling and bombing. They can be quickly refueled and get back to action quickest and can take off from local highways where there is a 800 meters straight patch with refueling and rearming stations can be at multiple places. I feel Grippen NG with 414 EPE is a game changer. Plus ask Sweden to be a part of AMCA.Renegotiate a good price and the things would fall in place as they can easily deal with the front line Chinese planes plus give excellent ground support.The turn around time is very short and cost of operation is smallest in all the planes it would be a win win situation for the air force as well as army.

Rav007 said...

We got American fanboys here who want to be opportunistic and are on the move.But to let you know..the best of the best have been shortlisted...Cost fact is not and was never the concern.We have faith in our system and Either Rafale or Eurofighter wil rule MMRCA.

Gaurab said...

For all the F35 fans -
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/08/entire-u-s-stealth-fighter-fleet-grounded/

Rahul Devnath said...

Interesting! So in the case of both the bidder bidding way ahead of the benchmark price, is there a way to get the eliminated competitors to get back in the game?

Well, there's no doubt in the fact, that SAAB has been really pitching hard with their marketing campaigns. Though the Gripen uses the American engine, it would be right at home with it's LCA counterpart, the GE-414s! Not a bad deal after all, if it were to happen.

Anonymous said...

To Deepak Datta:

1. What's the point of getting the best American fighter when we would hardly have operational sovereignity over it? Once the US becomes our top supplier, they will blackmail us to continue buying from them and we will end up becoming another American stooge (like Saudi, Pak..which are all in a mess). US is like the Devil. You can use them to achieve some goals, but never get to cosy with them. It is in India's strategic importance to let-down both the Americans and Russians; to prove a point: Despite all the soft-talk, we will make a decision based on our needs and interests, and not to please a "friend". I'm strongly for Rafale. I think the UK-Germany consortium for EF should be punished for their role in the latest NSG decisions.

2. What sort of tech-transfer/offsets would the US offer with the F-35? it's a question still unanswered.

3. As it is the F-35 is riddled with problems. It experiences transonic wing roll-off and greater than expected sideslip during medium angle-of-attack testing. In addition, its P&WC engines have been reported to experience significant screech. These are likely to be solved in Block 3 only. India's fast declining fleet needs injection of new fighters and waiting without a specific timeframe for F-35 to materialise would be foolhardy.

4. India is already teaming up with Russia for PAK-FA - a FGFA. In addition, DRDO is initiating a "TD" programme for an in-house FGFA. What sense would it make to go for F-35?

5. You mentioned that PAK-FA's design is frozen, so it isn't quite a JV in true form. Agree. But India would have more involvement and opportunity to customise / mix & match according to its requirement that it could dream of having in a "partnership" in the F-35 programme.

6. About Libya, you're obviously wrong. It was a group of Rafales that established a CAP over Benghazi. Please do some reading.

Cheers.

RAT said...

Whoa! A LOT OF EXPERTS I WAS MISSING THE FUN

Anonymous said...

@Deepak Datta
acrobatics=su30mki??
please go through the analysis made by the RAAF also the platform is still evolving ever heard about L-band and S-band radars? there are many more things do not name something you do not know i am not talking about the F-35? the Su right now even without the ASEA dominates the Asian skyline no questions asked.

Artanis said...

About F-35 -

"As of 2001 program estimates pegged the recurring JSF unit flyaway costs at $37 million for the Air Force conventional takeoff and landing variant, $46 million for the Marine Corps short takeoff vertical landing variant and $48 million for the Navy carrier version, in 2002 dollars."

"In February 2011, the Pentagon put a price of $207.6 million for each of the 32 aircraft to be acquired in FY2012, rising to $304.15 million ($9,732.8/32) if its share of RDT&E spending is included."

That is almost 1000% cost escalation on F-35!

Indian-Russian Pak-Fa cost only about $60-120 mil that less than a third of F-35 and reputed sites like Ausairpower have predicted that Pak-fa will be better than F-35. So go PAK-FA.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous at 2:47 AM

Thank God you are not the Chief of Air Staff. What were you reading before you chipped in with your thoughts? Diamond Comics, me thinks.

@ JSF Fans

Please go through the reams of articles available on the developing disaster that is the JSF. Read Australian articles - I am not sure how credible Karlo Copp is but he has put out a lot of material. Read US articles and whatever the US Sec of Defense has had to say about it.

There is a lot more going on besides whatever has been highlighted by Anon at 11:03 AM.

I wish such decisions were that easy.

Aman.X360 said...

The point is that the scandinavians still believe that they have a chance of clawing their way back in what is said to b the world's most valuable defense deal.The air force evaluated all six machines on 660 parameters.All the birds were flown in different terrains weather conditions and their components composites manouverability technologies were tested.Be it performing air to air air to ground or air to see IAF wanted to have the best killing machines in their class.Seeing the progress rate of Gripen one can easily say that the integration of an AESA RADAR was one of the main priorities of our air force.The downselection of aircraft was made on the basis of the R&D that had been done in the radar field.On evaluation the officers found out that Captor-E would b ready when IAF would start receiving the eurofighters and same goes with the rafale depending on who so ever clinches the deal.The gripen's AESA would still take 5-7 years before it gets finally inducted.That's why the swedish lost out.Plus the europeans were way to ahead in all other aspects as well.Nd last but not the least gripen's engine failed to generate power at higher altitudes.

Aman.X360 said...

Now guys i would just wanna throw some light on the F-35.
Why India won't buy the f-35 ever...
1)Price -140 million to 150 million dollars.
2)It's vulnerable to russia's S-500 anti aircraft high altitude destruction systems.
3)We would never have access to Raytheon Apg-81 source codes so we would have to depend on the US to configure the radar to our needs which would b a serious compromise on security.
4)The F-35's weapon carriage capacity is far below satisfactory wen compared to Even the typhoons and rafales.It can carry 2 sidewinders 2 amraams and 2 Joint direct armed munitions that's it so it will basically be an espionage for our forces,reason being that our air force always wanted machines wit longer range ability to carry at least 7500kg to 10000kg of weapons.(That was one of the major reasons why we went for the dual seat sukhoi rather than single one,the other being that structural modifications to dual seater gave our sukhoi's a range of 3500 km without inflight refueling.
5)The F-35 isn't a war proven bird.If u compare it with the F-22's they still have gone one sucessfully intercepting russian bears over the arctic circle in highly classified NORAD missions plus the F-35 hasn't ever participated in red flag simulated combat exercises.U can't just go by what's written on paper.
6)We already have our own Pak -fa programme with russia which will provide us with birds in class of an F-22 so why would we go for a downgraded expensive combat jet.According to RIA Nivosti each Pak-fa will cost us 100 million dollars and the whole programme shall cost 35 billion dollars inclusive of R&D production maintainence and all other expenses covered.
7)India would have to sign multiple agreements to get high end technologies from the US like Their FLIR lasers,IRST sensors,GPS,Link 16 and blah blah blah.
Cheers.

Mr. Ra said...

To: @Aman.X360

QUOTE>> Last but not the least gripen's engine failed to generate power at higher altitudes.<<UNQUOTE

It is a bit difficult to believe this. Can you pl provide some link. Thanx in advance.

Anonymous said...

@Aman360: The Gripen's radar is in a far more advanced stage of development than either the Rafale or Eurofighter AESAs. IAF pilots have flown the NG prototype and have checked out basic modes on the Raven AESA. Yes, all the bells and whistles in term of radar modes werent available but they are now. Also, the Gripen NG's performance in Leh was OUTSTANDING. So, lets lay off the rubbish.

Aman.X360 said...

@anonymous:I guess ur the chief designer of Raven AESA.The radar that ur talking about is still in its developmental stages.It was first tested on a gripen in 2010 and will b fully operation in about 2015-2016.RBE2 -AA and Captor -E are in the final stages of their development and are ready for induction.As far as the performance of the aircraft in higher altitudes is concerned i may have missed the mark cause i wrote what i read in an issue of FORCE magazine as to why the gripen got rejected.So now lets lay off our scientific designer's crap.

Anonymous said...

Hi All,

Let us stop wasting money on all these expensive war toys and start a dialogue with Pakistan and China to build confidence and good will. I know this will be a tough thing to do. The USA and the other war mongering nations want conflict to fuel their military industry and we are pawns in this big game. We can spend all this money on direly needed things such as schools and hospitals. If we were at peace, we would spend most of the defence budget on productive needs. Instead, the west has created enemies out of neighbours.

Peace, Peace, ever lasting Peace!

Anonymous said...

May I know how you people can say one aircraft's performance was awesome in some particular condition have you flown it or was part of the evaluation team? and how you come to know about the development stages about each components of the aircraft even sometimes company insiders are kept blind folded. Is everybody is associated with the development cycle of these thing, If not you guys are simply rocking..why do we need hell of secret service agencies you can tell the exact number of fighters placed in enemy airfields and with little more googling the name of the pilots who will fly those. Keep rocking... :P

Anonymous said...

We could consider IN... if the engine and aesa are eurpean... not chinese or US

Anonymous said...

The Rafale were able to fly in Libya from day 1 from 2000 km away, providing recce, CAS, Air Interdiction, DEAD, and A2A. Gripen were late (OK it was a political issue) and grounded due to problem with fuel.
Concerning the price, yes probably the Rafale is more expensive due to its dual engine and larger platform design. But it has shown its capabilities, and not on paper ads.

Anonymous said...

Read this guys...

http://news.yahoo.com/us-hypersonic-glider-launched-145048349.html


and we are still boasting about BRAHMOS...

Anonymous said...

gripen's radar is the reason why gripen was rejected ! anon 5:23 pm lives on another planet.

Anonymous said...

"The Gripen's radar is in a far more advanced stage of development than either the Rafale or Eurofighter AESAs. "
HA HA ! that was a good joke.
Rafale's AESA design is done and is entering production. It will be integrated in next Rafale command batch.
Gripen's AESA is not "more advanced" than Rafale's one, it's just plain lie and a bit funny considering Sweden wanted to buy Thales RBE2-AA active antenna and build its own process LRUs.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 10:04 PM, BRAHMOS hits its intended target. whereas the Hypersonic glider goes missing!

Bhavin said...

@Anon at 7:40pm

hey about which peace u r taking about??? Today we are not safe in our own HOME & u r taking abt peace?!

Look u r at wrong place to give your 'purly political LECTURE'.
Don't visit the site or don't spoil the atmosphere by placing ur rubbish comments here.

Anonymous said...

@Aman.360xbox
Obviously you do not know zilch about the AESA development.
Fact; the Gripen / Raven AESA development started years ahead of development of the AESA for Typhoon, which by the way is based on the Gripen AESA, and will also use the swash plate technology developed initially for the Gripen... So zip it, go back to your XBOX

parvas24 said...

We the Indian people first need to be humble and learn from a small nation like Sweden....

Our LCA project has taken us years and so much money has been spent .... although it is good to show that we are learning to make good fighter jets ... it still hurts when these fighters are not yet deployed for frontline role or they still lack indegenous engines so we still have to procure American engines for Mark II Tejas...

The MMRCA is for medium combat aircrafts ... we desperately need such fighters to defend the country ... our enemies have bigger and more lethal aircraft and they are bolstering them while our IAF is rapidly depleting....

Ideally instead of Mark II Tejas ... the Defence ministry shoudl spped up the developement of MCA project ... we need our MCA quickly ... the one way we can o is the example shown by SAAB of Sweden..... we can do something similar to that of Gripen NG... we already have the wind tunnel model ready ... we can procure either the EF 200 engines or the F414 engines along with avionics from BAE/ Dassault/ Israel ... along with some indeginous features and AESA radar from Raython ... maybe the final cost of assembling such a fighter jet unit and running it as MCA would be cheaper to some extent and most importantly operational with the IAF to defend the counntry right now.... slowly over a period of time our own defece industry could replace the engines and other components in the MCA to delver us the Mark II MCA .... by that time our defence industry would be more mature and our country would have enough 4.5 gen fighter jets to counter enemy fighters....

Aroop Gohain Baruah said...

To Prasun Sen Gupta
Tikhomirov NIIP AESA on display at MAKS 2009. Variants of this design will be fitted to the PAK-FA series and late models of the Flanker (© 2009, Miroslav Gyűrösi).
The late models of the Flanker here refers to the SU-35. The rcs of Su 35 will always be lower than that of MKI, since it is a single seater. I was comparing the Su 35 with the basic MKI and not with the Super 30 standard. Anyway i do not want to go off topic but i was merely stating that Su 35 will be a less costlier option than Rafales and Typhoons.

Aroop Gohain Baruah said...

The Russian response to the surge in US AESA production was to launch the development of the 20 kiloWatt peak power class Irbis E radar, an evolution of the N011M BARS. This radar is to be carried by the new Su-35S (formerly Su-35BM and Su-35-1) Flanker variant.

Anonymous said...

I dont think buying Gripen's in large numbers is a bad deal. Why?

1. You have a good aircraft at a much lower price. So for the price of say 100 Rafales or Typhoons, you could buy maybe 130 or 140 Gripens.

2. There is a theory that probably large number of J-10, J-11 kind of aircraft can overpower a stealth aircraft like F-22. Also the more aircrafts you have, the more sorties you can make in the time of war.

3. Gripen can take off from shorter runways and somewhere I read that it can also take off from roads.

4. I cannot believe that Gripen's engine failed in Ladakh. So if that is true, then our LCA Mk2 will also fail as it uses the same engine.

5. Why are we hung up on AESA. It is important, but not more than the aircraft. If India can develop its own AESA, then it can be fitted in.

6. Sweden is less likely to exert political influence.

If not Gripen, my choice would have been F-16 and F-18 combination. Among the 6, F-16 is the most battle proven aircraft and we could have learnt a lot from USAF and Israeli Air Force.

And Rafale's showing might against Libya! Come on! None of our enemies can be compared to Libya.

Anonymous said...

In my opinion it is impossible for niether of the short listed contenders to meet the financial constraints. They are required by thier owners to make a profit and the a/c are way to expensiv to produce given the economic frames of the tender.

Anonymous said...

It is a real fact that our indigenous programs of LCA has failed, technology that is good at the time of start of program is outdated now, because of narrow thinking lack of opportunism, we should have gone for a proven foreign engine and radar and parallel develop our own one, if not america from other source, Pakistan has got from Russia we can get one from Europe or even from Russia that is powering Sukhoi or MIG29's,
this has given us more time and the money we are going to spent on MMRCA, If we had 50-60 such indigenous fighters to replace MIG21, we can today use the technology from the same to Produce our own 5th gen fighters which will cost less and development of domestic Industry.

But the real thinking behind all the govt purchases and deals is always a big corruption, Govt departs always buy what is most costlier in whatever respect it is, Costlier the product most bribe it is.
The options I have said above are very common and any common thinking man have gone for this Idea some 10-15yrs ago but Govt officers and politicians are known to be making some extra ordinary and country destructing (not self destructing all the capable persons have their properties in Europe & US ) decisions .
If they had purchased 100 Jet engines with technology transfer how much they will get in compare to MMRCA?

sonu said...

It is a real fact that our indigenous programs of LCA has failed, technology that is good at the time of start of program is outdated now, because of narrow thinking lack of opportunism, we should have gone for a proven foreign engine and radar and parallel develop our own one, if not america from other source, Pakistan has got from Russia we can get one from Europe or even from Russia that is powering Sukhoi or MIG29's,
this has given us more time and the money we are going to spent on MMRCA, If we had 50-60 such indigenous fighters to replace MIG21, we can today use the technology from the same to Produce our own 5th gen fighters which will cost less and development of domestic Industry.

But the real thinking behind all the govt purchases and deals is always a big corruption, Govt departs always buy what is most costlier in whatever respect it is, Costlier the product most bribe it is.
The options I have said above are very common and any common thinking man have gone for this Idea some 10-15yrs ago but Govt officers and politicians are known to be making some extra ordinary and country destructing (not self destructing all the capable persons have their properties in Europe & US ) decisions .
If they had purchased 100 Jet engines with technology transfer how much they will get in compare to MMRCA?

Anonymous said...

It is better to trash the UPA govt which is taking too much time to decide upon the winner of MMRCA deal. If both are quite expensive in the first place why did they down select these 2 aircrafts, hornet was a good choice for the IAF rather than the European ones. Aussie's have selected the super hornets. UPA is playing the cards well to bring back the US fighters through the back door. The deal would be any where more than 20 billion dollars which the US will not let go.